Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site About ready to dig, or am I?

Hi everyone, I have been lurking these boards for awhile gaining info. and putting together a plan. I have an old farm house with 8 acres, so basically I will be putting a pond (Excavated) in a field that has been used for farming for many, many years. The area is flat,and where I want to dig is slightly lower. Anyway, I am getting mixed info. from different people on weather my area is good for a pond. First, I had a guy that lives down the road (He does road construction) dig me a 10' x 10' test hole. When he was done digging he said that the hole wouldn't fill and this was not a good area. 4 days later, the hole was to the top. So I had the local dept. of agriculture come out and he said that I had the top 3 feet of the soil as a sand/clay mix, and the rest was a blue clay . So basicaly all my ground water for filling the hole would come from the top, and he didn't know If I would have enough ground water to fill the hole or not. He said to watch the hole for 2 years to monitor the water level. So he could pretty much tell me nothing. So I had a survey done on my land anyway just in case, and the guy who did it said he used to farm this area years ago, and said this would be a good area for a pond. He mentioned all the clay in the soil. So now I call a few pond excavators, and they both said that This is a good area, and I would have plenty of water, and only need a well if I wanted to keep it topped off during the summer. They both said to expect a 3' drop if not. The one guy saw my test hole and said he couldn't believe how high the water was up. I mentioned that the hole has been there for 4 months and the level never dropped. So ha basically said that "There is your ansewer" to wether this is a good area or not. My concern is that this hole was dug in December and has been Ice through the winter. He said it didn't matter and the water would of still drained if it wouldn't hold. So do I believe the excavaters and go ahead and dig? I guess I don't want to shell out the cash for a big hole. I just can't tell if these guys are out to get my money, or they are being honest about It being a good area or not. With so many mixed reviews on It, I am getting nervous now that I have the money. By the way, these are the 2 guys that the Dept. of Agriculture suggested. Thanks for reading, I know it was a long nervous rant.

A couple of comments. First, If the ice did not end up with a large air gap between it and the water I would agree that you are holding the water. When I had my house built the septic leach field trenches were dug and then we got hevy rain that filled them to the top followed by a deep freeze. The water froze solid on the top but the ice quickly broke apart since the trench drained rapidly as you would want for a leach field.

Second, There is a bit of a leap of faith when doing a pond. My best advise on that is that if you geet to know the "pond guy" and have a good feeling about him them go for it. If not find, someone else or don't do it. Depending on the situation the project could take a long time to finish. Also, you need to share the same vision as to what the pond is all about so that you can participate in the creation of the pond, even if it's just with input on the design. This is not like building a house where there is a fixed design. It is often design on thee fly depending on what they find once they get deep into the project.

Good Luck!

Silvertarpon: I was very much in your situation when we started our lake. We had the local electric company drill a number of holes and they filled with water. Still, it is a leap of faith. I had constant nightmares of ending with a huge hole and no water. Fortunately, the lake has filled.

Our lake is also built on flat land. As such, we discovered that we didn't have to do it all at one time. We started in 2000 and will finish this year. You don't have to do everything all at once but can do it as time and money allows. This also allows you do make a "test" lake and see how it looks.

At first we couldn't find anyone that wanted the dirt so we had to pay for the work ourselves. We then started finding people that wanted the dirt. We gave them the dirt but they had to pay to move it. That means we got the second half of the lake for free.

One other thing we did was just pile up the dirt (clay) into 6 high islands in the middle of the lake.

Thanks for the responses guys. After several nights now of no sleep, I have decided to go over everything one more time with the contractor and go for it. I still have visions of a big dry hole, but I told my wife that if that happens, she can just push me in it as my grave and I will go down with my pond!

Silvertarpon: tell us more about what you are planning. How big of a lake are you thinking about? Is this crop land, grass or trees? Even flat land tends to drain one direction or another. How do you plan to manage that? Where do you plan to move the dirt? In my experience, that is a huge issue. I've never heard of anyone that wishes they had made their lake smaller but most of us wish we could get just a little bit more water. Can you add on in the future? When making a lake on flat land, you can make all of the structure you need. Think of ridges, channels, flats, islands and points. The magazine has had many articles about this.

silvertarpon
I personally appreciate your candid concerns about a location. It's a big decision and worth the time to thoroughly research before digging. I am also in the beginning stages of deciding where to put a pond on my land. I have also heard conflicting stories about the best location. I wonder if there is a source one could go to first and cut to the chase on obtaining highly accurate, credible advice on where to locate a pond. I would even pay someone to fly across the country if I knew for sure I was getting highly credible advice.

Normkopecky and everyone: I plan on a 1 acre pond. I have 8 acres, 5 of which are field. With the way my property is, a 1 acre pond would fit nicely in a corner with a forest surronding it. The excavator said he would take away what ever dirt I dont use after landscaping around the pond. I have not gone over details yet about the layout of the pond, I basicaly was concerned wether or not I could have one or not. After giving him ideas of what I was thinking, he said He could do whatever I wanted. I plan on 14' at the deepest point, and ridges, channels etc. So thats where I am at this point.

click the little home page or here to see the results of my worries and nightmares.
It was worth the stress.
http://www.frontiernet.net/~catpond/photo.html

You can also see some of the pain you still may face. It was worth it!

Tuzz that's awsome! How big is your pond? That first picyure with the moon over the water looks like the pond in my dreams

SilverT: There are several things you should do before begining your one acre "grave site" aka pond.

1. Go to a MSU Extension office and for $3.50 or $4.50 buy "Managing Michigan Ponds for Sport Fishing". Excellant book for the money; esp for MI & northern ponds. There is a very good section in "Building Fish Ponds" that deals with pond Depth. The Booklet has been discussed at length here in previous posts. A search using "Michigan" of all Forum headings will reveal several discussions about this booklet. Deeper depth is distinctly better for MI winters even if it means your budgeted money builds a somewhat smaller pond (3/4ac instead of 1 ac) but with proper depth it will resist winter fish kills (esp as the pond ages) during Mt.Pleasant's snowy winters. I graduated from CMU w/ a MS aquatic biology degree.

2. Make sure your contractor understands / agrees to first stockpile all your upper topsoil. He should then use this to overlay all the exposed and compacted soils. This will allow much better establishment of watershed vegetation such as deep rooted fescues or even blue grass-fescue mixes. Rapid and good revegetation stands can be a real problem in compacted clay soils. Many pond owners over look this feature.

3. Make sure your contractor agrees and understands to just not dig a hole, but to BUILD a pond. To help insure a leak proof pond and not waste your money on building a "leaker", he should over excavate by at least one bull dozer blade width the perimeter of the entire pond zone down to a depth of field tile or tree root depth. This over excavated zone should then be recompacted in thin layers of clay by using the blue clay from the remaining depths and basin of the pond. This wide band of compacted clay is your core trench that will be about 8' wide and have a high resistance to water seepage out of the pond. This compacted core trench also insures there are no hidden sand or gravel veins within 8' of the upper 5' to 7' of the basin. Most "leaker" ponds in good clay soils leak in the upper 3'-4' ft. of the surface. FYI with your annual weather and precipitation levels and with a full pond that has a properly compacted core trench; the water level should not drop any more than 12" -15" even in a drought year. More water level drop than this is a leakage situation. Keep in mind, all earthen ponds leak, it is a matter of just how much. In our experience, "well build" core trench ponds in blue clay maintain water levels noted above even during the driest summers. This may cost 1K to 2K more money but it is well worth the extra money if your pond does not leak and you can sleep well at night.

4. A "sheeps-foot roller" (big knobby toothed roller) is very important when compacting dirt / soils when using bulldozers. Dozers are not designed to compact dirt, their weight is spread out over the wide tracks. Sheep-foot rollers are designed for compacting soil & used by wise construction pond people. If your pond builder does not use double barrel sheepsfoot rollers, look for another pond builder!. Single barrel sheep foot rollers are too light and bounce around too much for best compaction.

5. If you value your money, check on the references of your pond builder and go look at several of his ponds and talk to the pond owners. You will get an education.

6. If your landscape is flat as you say then the contractor should use the excavated soils to provide / build you a drainage watershed that will drain runoff water into the pond to help fill your pond and keep it full. All the water shed should be over laid with some topsoil for growing grasses and minimizing erosion into the pond. But with a well built leak proof pond you should not need lots of or very little water shed to drain water into your pond. Our local ponds in NW Ohio that have good core trenches and little or no water shed and are always full in spring and drop very little (12"-15") during summer. These ponds even have shallow buried over-flow pipes to drain off excessive rainfall. Annual precipitation in your area should be around 30"-40"/yr. which should MORE than enough water to keep a well built core trenched pond full. Many in our area use only eve-spout (roof gutter) water & precipitation to keep their ponds full.

7. "You dig a hole, but you BUILD a pond". "A 3' drop" is unacceptble with a well built core trenched pond in yellow or blue clay soils.

8. It is much better to spend a little more money up front getting a properly built core trenched pond than more money for each of several years later trying to fix a "leaky pond" which can cost more than the original pond cost.

9. Come back if you have any more ???..

Thanks Bill! I am going to print off everything you said and re-question all the contractors that I have talked to so far. I also have a guy that "specializes" in fishing ponds coming out later in the week. I talked to him about an hour on the phone and he seems to be on the same wavelenth with me. We will see. I am heading out to look at a few ponds he has done around here and talk to the owners etc. Thanks for all the good advice, keep it coming!

One more thing, do you remember any good contractors in the area from your time at CMU? Thanks!

one other thing i would worry about is digging the pond in a forest. when i did mine i left alot of trees by the pond , they look real nice in the summer. then fall comes and i get tons of leaves in the pond. now most the trees i left on the west side i got go back , cut down and dig the stumps up, redo my landscape , yuk. then in fall i can put a soil fence to catch most of them and cut them up. i sold most of the trees when i cut them down , to help with costs. all those leaves put way to many nutrients and tannis in the pond. i get plenty of nutrients from the water shed. just another thought. like Bill said do plenty of reserach before you start, i wish i would of found this great site before i started.

My pond is about 1 1/2 acres. It was the pond of our dreams too. Now it is reality.... Just make sure you do all the planning and find a Pond Carver you feel good about.

There will be ups and downs during the work as the weather can really do you in.

My project took nearly a year to finish. We had a very serious drought before the work started and then as luck would have it just as the excavation started we got a tropical storm and then it rained and or snowed for what seemed like forever. Nearly lost the bulldozer in the much a few times. Finally got a 2 week period last July and those photos are the result of our efforts. The pond has been full since labor day and went through it's first winter very nicely.

Good Luck and keep us posted.