Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Pond Boss Hunting 2015/2016

The yearlings are the good tasting ones and the larger does weeks after the rut. The big old bucks are rutted out and lean tough meat.

1) it is very very difficult to judge size if they are running at you.

2) they will run across 1000 acres in 5 minutes when driven.

It is very rare that any deer will stay in a 200 acre area year round. They may settle into a 500 acre area for the winter when it gets -10 but there is no season for them then.

I personally would take a button buck to 8 point and be happy throwing my tag on. More cars take deer around here then all the hunters put together. Hunters get one week a year cars and truck are 365 days a year.

Cheers Don.

EDIT: P.S. taking a deer during a rut is like cheating.

This might be a good place and time to tell this story. There is a 9,000 acre National wildlife Refuge across the blk top rd from me. And during WW II they built an ammunition plant there. And in 1943 the Texas Parks and Wildlife determined there were no deer in Texas at that time. So they brought in deer from Wisconsin, Illinois along with a few other northern states. They stocked these deer here at the 9,000 acres and stocked another area near San Antonio Texas. These deer were monitored and were used to increase a non existent deer herd in Texas. They did well and in fact there were so many deer from the two herds that Texas deer population grew to an overabundance and where a disease took most all of the Texas deer in 1961. So the Texas Parks and Wildlife reseeded the deer again by importing northern deer to these same two locations. They monitored the deer herd again and in 2008, the Texas Parks and Wildlife stopped the monitoring of these deer. Now known as Texas Deer. This 9,000 acre National Wildlife Refuge is now open a few days a year to deer hunting, mostly a few days of youth hunts and a very few days of public Bow hunting.

Tracy

DonoBBD - You are not alone. That is why i have harvested a couple dozen deer (mostly does) over the last 4 years from my place. The post-rut doe herds are now 5 or 6, rather than the 20 that existed 4 years ago. The result of taking the easy-picking baby bucks will be a much smaller overall deer heard in my area to achieve the desirable doe to buck ratio. I follow the recommendations of the wildlife biologists who have studied deer-herd management. Eventually the meat hunters might end up with less meat in their freezers than if they simple left the baby bucks alone. Meat hunting and trophy deer management are compatible if restraint is practiced. Unless you prefer baby bucks to baby does, you are simply removing a pubic resource that others would like to enjoy. It is not illegal, just inconsiderate.

RAH, in my reading of biologist papers, QDMA and such, I have seen where some opinions in management numbers are changing. And from personal experience I might see where or how opinions vary. You write of reducing the doe herd from 20 to 5 and attempting a doe/buck ratio of 2 to 1. so with that in mind, I have seen where the doe numbers were brought down and in doing so the buck numbers came down also. One thing that comes to mind is where a property has reduced to 1 to 1 or so and when having low doe numbers they did not see the rut bucks they had seen in the past years. If there are 5 does and they are bred, the rut bucks may not venture on to that property. where if the doe numbers are higher the rutting (traveling bucks) are more. That increases the possibility of more bucks being taken. I know of deer leases in Texas where they reduced the does and that reduced the number of bucks. Making the deer lease no longer attractable for releasing. As a land owner in Texas and having been a manager of hunting lands as large as 3,700 acres in Texas I can see many changes in todays thinking. Much like, a few years ago you might have been told to take all spikes, where today, it is recommended not to take spikes and in fact may be your Trophy Buck in 3 or 4 years. Me, I am reading and attending seminars and watching. I might compare it to a bass pond where you can catch numbers of fish or maybe have an opportunity to see one larger fish. And like you Enjoying.

Tracy

The regulations reflect the best biology and the input from the most engaged sportsmen. That is why they allow a liberal doe take and very limited antlered deer take. Speculation and anecdotes abound. When the science changes, please point me to the review papers in scientific journals that reflect this change. I see this kind of anti-science mumbo jumbo used to justify behavior in all disciplines, from medicine to agriculture; Just add doubt and then proceed to do whatever fits your ideology or is simply easy. Shooting whatever walks by is legal, but the science is not controversial among scientists. Unlike your private pond, your deer hunting behavior affects others. You are free to do whatever is legal, but I will call you on justifying it based on murky science, Just keep your BG out of my private SMB pond!

Tracy, the 18 month old deal is not my observation ON MY PLACE. The Mamas on my place are more interested in finding a boy friend than taking care of the kids. However, I have seen different age classes of does do things differently.

A friend has a weekend place on Possum Kingdom Lake. It is loaded with yard deer and no hunting. They are all but tame and he hand feeds corn in his yard. He tells me that some does keep them for a longer time but about 50% breed every year. That can only mean that those that keep them around don't go into estrus on an annual basis. I asked him which age classes had twins. He said that the first year does had singles and older does often twins. However he said none of "his" does seem to have twins on a consistent basis. But he isn't sure whether it could be to fawn mortality.

Due to 5 years of drought and seriously declining deer population we aren't shooting does this year. That's convenient because we have another year of heavy acorn drop and don't see that many deer. Recent rains have brought up a lot of wild rye. The 4 months of drought kept me from planting wheat and, with the abundance of rye as natural browse they would have ignored it. According to game cams, hogs are getting the corn at night. I have Kids filling feeders today and told them to only feed in the morning.

Population in our area. MPP asking for more to be taken.

Are you suggesting that harvesting young bucks is effective at reducing the deer population? BTW - I took a lot of young bucks when I started out hunting in my 30s. That was all I could get consistently.

Around here it was "if it's brown it's down" and that led to no mature bucks. Now with the new 13" inside rule that will get the bucks to 2-1/2- 3-1/2 year old . But then they allowed a spike or one side unbranched, so that took out more bucks that were to young- to reach potential. Then you can't kill does except during bow season . We wound up with a 15-20 doe to buck ratio leading to many does not being bred. We got started a game management program going to harvest does only this year to allow the buck ratio to get closer to normal 1-2 to 1 doe to buck ratio..... We will see

Some general guidance from a 2011 book on the subject:

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...p;q&f=false

RAh, I ment no harm, just wonderering about different thoughts on different areas, and yes it is done different ways based on the rules and laws in that area. That's all.

Tracy

Looks like a pretty interesting book. I have Krohls book but believe it to be dated with conclusions that can only be drawn from huge South Texas ranches.

The wildcard in quality deer management can be size of property. I can do my best on my 133 acre place but have no control on the places around me. Not a lot of my neighbors hunt, some are absentee land owners, and I have no idea what happens nest door or elsewhere. Some of the neighbors have "ranchettes" and some thousands of acres. Since there are darn few cows left in Texas(again 5 years of drought) the deer ought to be thriving but driving local back roads hasn't shown me a the numbers that I used to see. And then, due to mucho rain we have had 2 years of massive acorn crops and wild winter rye. The deer just don't have to travel anywhere to feed. But, they will enter winter in better shape. I like that idea but hunting and observing wildlife can be pretty boring.

That drought also took a toll on other wildlife. We used to be loaded with possums, armadillos, coons, bobcats etc. Not so now to the same extent and even hearing coyotes is a treat. I am declaring war on neighbors dogs.

No problem. We should all feel free to express our opinions. One quote from the book chapter link above:

"The primary reason large-antlered are not harvested in other regions of the United States is that hunters harvest too many young bucks; deer management is less complex than many wish to believe."

Dave, I hear ya, management by your personal experience, and with the hogs, we no longer use spin feeders and use gravity feeders that keep the corn off the ground. It seams to reduce the number of hogs at the place. it does not mean they can't get to the corn but it may make it harder for them to get. I do have a video of a hog hitting the legs of the feeders to shake out some small amount of corn. And Pat, it sounds like your County has the same rule and regs as my county. Texas Parks and Wildlife does a pretty good job, I think. Here on the E. Texas border where it borders Louisiana the deer laws like many laws are different. Caddo Parish La. borders Harrison Co. Texas. Caddo Parish has a 6 doe to two buck and Harrison Co has 2 doe and 2 bucks. Different strokes for different folks. State wildlife managements from different states see things different. My son hunts both places.

Tacy

No I am not suggesting to take the young bucks but it is very difficult to see the buttons.

This year we (15 guys and tags) took 10. Of the 10 there was one 10 point, one 6 point, one button buck, 3 mature does and 4 yearling does. We did let two nice bucks pass later in the week. One 4-6 point and one really big one hard to guess at his rack. This group of ten will make nice eating this winter. Our record with our group of 15 has been 12 deer. All tags are bought and paid for before the hunt about $65 each.

These 10 were harvested in about 10,000 acre area around our farm. We have summer animals but when it gets cool they heard up and head to the valleys. So mild this year they were all spread out in the 10,000 acres still from the rut.

I still have a hard time calling it "deer management". At least from a private, landowner's perspective. From the state's point of view, I certainly get where regulations and rules can have an impact, but the notion of an individual improving the herd to any appreciable degree ,while simultaneously expecting to be the hunter able to reap the benefits of his/her actions, seems pretty far fetched. Possible maybe, but certainly far from a sure thing.

And once again, when practiced by an individual, is it truly management benefitting the herd as a whole, or is it simply management intended to produce trophy bucks, as well as an attempt to encourage those same bucks to stay put, and not wander as much?

In Indiana, the state considers a 6" BG to be harvestable and acceptable. Obviously they are not concerned with trophy production, but rather overall population. Does the state manage for trophy deer, or is it just population numbers, like those bluegills?

If that be the case, then wouldn't an individual implementing a management program of his/her own be setting themselves up for disappointment, in light of the fact that state rules and regs may actually be detrimental to their own plans?

sparkie, you have to see it to believe it when it comes to small property management. Not perfect by any means. I think at my place poachers are more detrimental than public hunting. But, in Texas there are some pretty large low fence properties. Many of them are 3,000 acres or more. I have hunted some of those of places. I do see many a high fence places of that size and some with larger acreage, and have hunted on a couple of those. High fence is more management than I would want, to much work and cost to those. And my place is to small for high fence, since it is recommended for no less than 400 acres.

Tracy

Tony, a small landowner can improve the herd. Now what your definition of improvement is, that's another story. If I help the deer get through a hard winter, help some deer survive that might not make it, help the deer fawns avoid coyote predation, that's what I consider improving the herd. Habitat improvement is the biggest thing that I can do to help.

Does it benefit me as a hunter? Of course. Am I doing it to increase the bucks horn zize? No. I am doing it to make it easier for me to put a couple deer in the freezer so don't have to buy beef all year long.

Tony, you're right in a lot of ways. I want to get a big buck in the same way that I want to catch a trophy fish. But, it virtually never happens. I think I'm trying to do my part but I very seldom reap the benefits. One of the goals is also to eliminate sub standard deer and encourage better genetics. That also means to manage and TRY to match density to forage availability. Mama Nature tosses a lot of curve balls and is a cruel Manager.

By the end of the rut a lot of bigger bucks enter Winter in pretty poor shape and sometimes don't survive no matter what we do. This is the time that they are succeptible to predation by predators like coyotes. The predators though, IMO, also play a part in regulating the density. How bad is that? I don't really know.

I think next year I'll start protein feeding and see what happens.

"I can 'splain it to you, but I can't un'erstand it for you." - Molly Ivins


https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...p;q&f=false

Therer are many, many examples of improving the herd on low-fence properties like mine (including my experience). As I mentioned earlier, some neighbors have also come on board.

My 12 and 14 year old boys went out this weekend with their electronic game caller and shot these two female cats within 10 minutes of each other. This will save countless deer, turkeys, rabbits and quail. Wildlife management at its best.

What weapon?

What call brings in a bobcat?

JKB, do they even allow bobcat hunting in Michigan?

They were using a 22-250 and a 243. 243 did a little damage to the pelt but 22-250 did none. They were using an electronic game caller that sounded like a cotton tail rabbit in distress. There is a fur bearer season in Missouri. We will be mounting both of these for the boys.

I absolutely believe that the size of your parcel of land has a direct bearing as to the effectiveness of your "management" strategy. Also agree that the more neighbors you get on board, the better your chances of reaping the benefits of what you're trying to sow.

Clarification someone? Differentiate between herd improvement and population expansion? Scott's program sounded to me like a plan to increase their numbers, not so much improve overall health.

And I agree with Dave as to predators having a vital role to play. We all know that nature does what she thinks is best, if left to her own devices. How do we know that those bobcats didn't have a vital role to play in curbing a population or two that needed curtailing? Man steps in and alters the balance yet again?

"Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary" Albert Einstein.