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What is the percentage of the total surface area of a pond that should be designed as “deep water”? This is the least productive and most expensive part of the pond depth profile to construct. However, I consider this to be the “insurance policy” for the fish in the pond. In Kansas, the fish have to survive both droughts and winter-kills due to ice cover. The USDA Pond Handbook (#590) puts my site right at the border between the 7-8’ and 8-10’ recommended minimum pond depth.

I have a spring-fed pond site in our pasture that has good clay from 4’ to at least 14’. (Soil probe truck going out next week for deeper samples.) It will be an “excavated” pond. Fortunately, due to the nature of the site - there will be no constraints at all on the depth profile or pond shape. I therefore request help from the PB denizens in designing the optimum depth profile to facilitate management of a LMB-BG pond.

The location is in south-central Kansas. Our state regulations change significantly when your water impoundment exceeds 15 acre-feet. Coincidentally, that is about how much I can afford to excavate – 15 acre-feet = 24,200 cubic yards. [The spoils will be banked just beyond the border of the pond, and then re-covered with saved topsoil.]

The initial pond design is starting with the assumption of approximately 2.0 surface acres. This yields an average depth of 7.5 feet for our design volume of 15 acre-feet.

Questions
1.) Is 10% of the surface area sufficient for a deep water pool? If things got that bad, I would try to set up emergency aeration. Would a significant portion of the fish survive a brutal July & August if they were squeezed into 1/10th of their original space?

2.) Which species drop out first as the oxygen depletes? Which size range of a given species suffers most – big fish or small fish?

3.) Which is preferred for drought insurance, a single deep basin or a narrow channel winding around the pond?

I think a narrow channel the width of a dozer blade with very steep sides would be preferred for normal fish habitat conditions. This would be one more type of “structure” in the lake and would be a deep water retreat for bass hanging out in the brush piles in shallower water. Would dozer slot walls (or even an excavator trench) stay stable over the years if they were below wave depth and were cut into clay?

4.) How deep should the pool be cut (maximum depth) for my conditions?

Considerations
The spring did not go completely dry over the past two-year drought. (Which was not that severe compared to some historical droughts.) However, the spring was only feeding a very small pond of less than 0.1 acres. Evaporation losses will go up significantly with the new pond.

The more acre-feet of water I place in the design for the deep-water pool, the more I have to shrink my surface acreage to stay within the 15 acre-feet regulatory limit.

Any recommendations or comments would be greatly appreciated.

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Have you considered an aeration system? You mentioned the possibility of setting one up during emergencies, how about one to run during the summer and during ice cover?

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I live in SE Ks and my main pond is 3 years old. I can not answer all your questions but have input on some of them.

I went for a 10' maximum depth based on likely the same recommendations you are hearing. One thing about depth............. a pond never gets deeper on its own. It will always try to get shallower. For example, say you shoot for 8' but then severe weather causes erosion runoff and you get a foot of silt in your deepest hole. Now you are only at 7'. Add ten years of fish poop, leaves and whatever else tries to run into the pond and maybe you have a foot of muck. Now you are at 6'. If you have clear water, now you have weed growth potential over your entire pond.

So for my money, I would rather err on the deeper side rather than more shallow.

I do not know exactly what percentage of my pond is deep but I would guess that about 20% is greater than 8'.

Unless you artificially aerate the pond, from Kansas publications that I have read, anything deeper than 10' is likely to not be used by fish as natural wind action will not move the water deeper than that. In the summer, depending on how turbid your water is and where the thermocline is at, the fish likely will only use the upper 4-6' of water unless you aerate.

Others can give better answers to your other questions. Hope that helps.


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The closer you can get deep water to be 25% of the surface area the better the pond will be long term to serve the great grandkids who will be rewarded by your forethought and planning. Deep water in your case can be in the 8'-10ft range with some of it 12'-14'.


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Thanks for all of the input.

CMM - I was hoping to get by without aeration. It is typically pretty windy in Kansas during July and August. I can add it later if needed. Let me know if it is much more difficult to add "post-construction".

snrub - I think my water will have above average clarity since I will get minimal surface run-off. I think you and I are at almost the exact same latitude. However, you get more rain.

You helped me previously concerning FA. You said the shallow pond slope around your perimeter was the biggest contributing factor. What was your slope into the pond from the shoreline? At what depth does your bottom become plant free?

Bill - I do not think I will experience very much silt influx or leaf build-up even over a 25+ year timescale, based on the site of the pond. However, I am going to have to compact clay along the edges to seal off some sand stringers. Will wave action erode this clay? (The big blue stem and the other grasses in the field have roots that go down 8'. I am hoping it will fill in back to the edge of the pond and stabilize the banks.)

Are there any other inputs that will fill in my pond? I assume I will get a little loess from neighboring farms when they till on windy days.

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The extent of shallow water is the next question.

I planned a 140' core trench for the dam - which would be considered the width of the pond. For a perfectly rectangular 2 acre pond, the length of the pond would be 622'.

If the slope from the edge of the pond is 2:1, then 10.3% of the surface area will be water in the 0-3' range. If the slope is 3:1, then 15.4% of the surface area will be water in the 0-3' range.

I believe 10-15% shallow water is sufficient for both spawning and native rooted plants? If I understood the "food chain" threads correctly, we should minimize the amount of incoming solar energy that is converted to plants and maximize the amount that goes to the phytoplankton.

I was going to leave some shallower humps in the middle of the pond. If my assumptions above are correct, then what is the minimum water depth I should allow over the humps? (I think my water should have above average clarity - unless I get one of the weird clay/turbidity reactions.)

Finally, say we decide that 6' is the safe depth where it is unlikely that plants or FA will establish on the tops of flat-topped humps. I would still consider having some rooted plants in the middle of the pond if they would be a net benefit to the fish.

Would it be a net benefit to build a few pinnacles (10' x 10') on the top of the humps. It they were built to a depth of only 3' below the water level then plants would certainly establish.

Positives: Some additional dense structure in the lake for forage fish. A visual dividing "curtain" if some of the bass decide to spawn in the adjacent 5-6' water.

Negatives: Taking some of the biomass of the lake and adding it into the "plant" category. Is this category already more than the pond needs? Secondly, does giving the plants a "foothold" in 3' deep water then make it possible for them to colonize the adjacent 6' deep water - when they would otherwise have been unable to do so?

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Aeration can be easily installed post construction. Access to electricity is the main factor for a pond of your planned size. Keep in mind that underwater humps can reduce effects of aeration/circulation by acting as baffles/walls. For best circulation construct with the main basin as open water space. Humps can be placed toward one end preferably on the prevailing down wind end where natural wave action mixing will help circulate water in the hump region. I wouldn't expect a KS pond of a rectangular 2 ac to mix naturally much deeper than 8ft. Warm 75F+ water has high resistance to natural mixing. Those members with unaerated Midwestern ponds of similar size may have some data on this natural mixing depth of deeper 2 ac ponds.

IMO have the humps to about 5ft of the surface. Artificial structure can always be placed there if the plants do not grow on top of the humps.

If plants colonize the entire or 70% of the pond's perimeter(1500ft) in 0-4ft of water(20%surf area) you will have ample or even excess cover - depending. Type or specie of plant will determine how deep they can possibly grow depending on individual characteristics of the plant specie and water clarity - light penetration. Some aquatic plants are low light tolerant. Some underwater vegetation can definitely grow deeper than others.


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Bill - Do I even want plants on the humps? If I already have more cover than is required by the pond ecosystem, would additional plants in the middle be a net detriment?

If I make the top of the humps 6' (or deeper), and make the side slopes of the pond as steep as possible, then I am worried that I have not created any good, flat spawning habitat for the Bluegill.

Would you recommend a few narrow underwater peninsulas that are perpendicular to the shore? I could give them a little grade so they run from 1' deep to 3' deep. That way the BG can select their optimum nest depth. If they get weedy, then they are perpendicular to the shore and will not effect fishing very much.

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After I posted, I realized that maybe I do not want to enhance the BG spawning habitat. If I try to suppress spawning, then I may actually enhance the size distribution of the BG population. (The little buggers will probably spawn plenty, despite my efforts to help or hinder.)

I think I need to go read more of the BG management threads.

*** Every time I try to figure out a pond question, I quickly generate five more questions for which I need to know the answers. A hearty thank you to everyone who has ever posted an answer to the PB forum. You have created a treasure of knowledge.

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We get more rain, you probably get more consistent wind.

We get a lot of wind, but it can get very still in the heat of the summer at the very time we need the water mixed. Thus I opted for aeration. The other thing I am doing that had no intention originally is feeding. Feeding the fish creates more fish biomass and thus raises the potential for a fish kill even more if all the fish are forced to live in the top few feet of water on a still, hot day. It seems to me the further west you go in our state the wind is more likely to stay more consistent even through the hotter part of the summer. But I could be wrong.

I put aeration after the pond filled. Not difficult as long as you use sinking tubing to the diffusers. Installing before filling would be nice simply because it would be easier to make sure you are setting the diffusers in the deepest part of the pond and have a better idea of the surrounding habitat, humps, etc. It is amazing how when the pond is empty and you put the artificial habitat in that you have it all in your head the locations. When the water fills, it all becomes fuzzy. I even go out and scuba dive and think I know right where a tire pile is, and have to search ten minutes to find it. Baffles me. I finally put in some permanent floats as boat moorings attached to several of the larger structures so I could easily locate them while fishing (also nice to have a place to tie the boat on a windy day). If you are going to be using a small boat on the pond, with the wind we have here in Kansas, that might be something you want to consider. Using a few earth augers with ropes and buoys attached (or attached to heavy concrete structure like mine) as permanent boat moorings. I tried a couple different kinds of anchors. One is still at the bottom of the pond attached to some structure it drug into and got hung up. Anchors did not work worth a darn with the various structure I have in the pond. Wind would blow the boat and drag the anchor in the mud till it hung up on structure. The permanent moorings, strategically located, allow me to attach the boat and place it around the pond where ever I want easily. Just pick my mooring depending on wind direction and let the rope out the amount I need to place the boat where I want. Works slick. Also marks some of the major structures so I know right where they are at. Saves lures trying to find it.

Most of my shore line we aimed at 3:1 slope down to at least 6'. The exception was the previously discussed swimming area which I ultimately dug out with a backhoe as far as I could reach out because if was an FA producing son of a gun. It was probably more like a 5 or 6 to one slope. One other exception is a shallow spawning area that was pretty flat but I also dug out the near shore portion with the backhoe for the same reason.

I am plant free everywhere. I wish I had some vegetation but so far FA has been all that likes to grow on the bottom. Starting to get a sprig or two of water primrose here and there and have transplanted some rushes in a few spots. But pretty much waiting to see what nature provides. Several various pondweeds in the local creek so I imagine the birds will establish something in time. I suppose if I were dedicated enough I would spend lots of money and buy some preferred vegetation to plant, but it seems to me a lot of guys do that and still have trouble getting what they want established. So guess I am a slacker in this respect.

Concerning bank erosion, it is a problem in Kansas. Here is a thread I started on the subject with some pictures concerning the subject.

Bank erosion and rock lining

Hope you enjoy your pond as much as we do ours. There is rarely a day when we are at home I do not venture out around it (it is in our back yard). I had never much been interested in fish or fishing till building the pond. Now it is one of three major hobbies. Here is a thread on my continuing adventure.

John's pond project

You ask for other suggestions. Two of the best less obvious features we enjoy about our pond (other than the obvious ones like a nice dock, etc.) is the fact that it has a bench at water level on the dam part (so we can stand flat footed a few inches above water level rather than on a sloping bank) and an all weather road that goes all around the pond (that will eventually grass and not look like a road). This road allows me to go out in any weather (I even venture out sometimes when it is raining in the 4 wheeler) without making ruts or getting muddy. The bench type dam allows us aging folks to easily stand or set chairs right at water edge. I doubt if we would fish off the dam portion much if we had to stand on a sloping bank all the time. Just a couple of things I think we accidentally did right.



Last edited by snrub; 11/24/15 11:25 AM.

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Bluegill are considered the backbone of producing a quality LMbass fishery. So if you are utilizing LMB then BG and their reproduction/offspring are important. When building the pond, if you have the dozer operators push some bottom dirt up to create a small beach area down to 5 or 6 ft deep as big as 1 or 2 to several cars or build a couple peninsulas, you should have enough area for BG and LMB spawning. Cover this area 6"-10" thick with pea size to nickel size gravel or crushed stone. Don't make the beech area too big because it will fill with filamentous algae and submerged weeds that will need to be manually removed, treated with herbicides, or consumed by grass carp/tlapia.

Here are some discussions about building beach areas in ponds.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=190416
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1153
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=302736

You might want to consider using a fish crib in your pond.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=342537

If you are not stocking LMB then do your homework as to what forage species will perform best for your stocked predators.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/24/15 12:27 PM.

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snrub - Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed post. I appreciate all of your "local" advice.

I did go back and read one of your FA threads. I had forgotten that you had lined your pond with topsoil. I find it incredible that bottom-rooted water plants have not yet established in your pond. Maybe the FA was winning the battle for nutrients.

I think I need to go read up on establishing beneficial aquatic vegetation. Planting it during the construction phase may be the way to go. I would then get the benefit you saw for all of the tiny creatures, plus it may compete for nutrients with the FA.

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Bill - Thanks for the additional information. I was typing for brevity and failed to correctly present my question.

I am going for a LMB/BG fishing pond. I understand that the BG are the backbone of the bass food chain. We have so much good advice on the forum regarding management of BG - for trophy bass, for good numbers of eating-size bass, and even for lunker BG, that I was a little overwhelmed in presenting a cogent question.

I think I would like a pond with a few lunker bass. The kids might catch them once/year as they become more hook shy. The bulk of the LMB biomass would be managed for good eating size. Cull and eat as the productivity of the pond allows. I would also like to manage the BG such that when we cull the females, some of them might be eating size. I doubt I have the management skills to pull that off, but it might be feasible in a 2 acre pond.

My question for you - Since we try to restrict the spawning numbers of female BG, would restricting the BG spawing area during the design phase be helpful in managing my BG (and therefore my LMB)?

Secondly, if you still recommend that I have a spawning beach I want to clarify your previous response. In my original design I wanted to put some of these shallow spawning areas in the middle of the lake on the humps. This would keep the resulting FA out of the way of shore fishing. My reading has now led me to believe that this is not possible. Robust FA will create floating mats that will eventually break off and accumulate in the wind lee corner of the lake. Meanwhile, my shallow area will continue to generate new FA growth.

You are advising me to make this area easily accessible via a shallow beach from the shore. When the FA get bad, I can just put on my waders and quickly clean out a small area by mechanical means. Further, if the BG lose some of their spawning gravel over the years, I can easily wade out with 5 gallon buckets and give them fresh material. Is this the correct interpretation of your advice?

Finally, if you do want to restrict the BG spawning area, is there a depth "sweet spot" where I can put some level areas and materials for LMB spawning that is too deep for the BG? The other option would be to put some fluffy cover in the spawning area. My understanding is that the bass like a little privacy, and it might give them an ambush position for any BG that attempt to spawn in the area.

P.S. There are pictures in the BG threads of a hundred contiguous nests in shallow, open water. How do the LMB not slaughter the BG on the nests? Do they feed until they are gorged and the BG reproduction strategy is to survive only by virtue of superior numbers?

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Fishinrod said P.S. There are pictures in the BG threads of a hundred contiguous nests in shallow, open water. How do the LMB not slaughter the BG on the nests? Do they feed until they are gorged and the BG reproduction strategy is to survive only by virtue of superior numbers?

I've been watching fish under water scuba diving for 40+ years. An interesting observation is that fish do not want to get hurt. An injury often means eventual death. So fish are a bit more selective in their feeding than a person might imagine. Given the choice, they will always take the easy meal over a hard or dangerous one. Even sharks or other seemingly aggressive fish don't just attack things willy nilly. When diving in warm clear water I observe fish that are both predators and prey coexisting in relative close proximity to each other. I've watched sharks feeding with Grouper and Snappers feeding right along with them on the same carcass. I've also witnessed a Yellowtail Snapper getting a little too piggy and close to the working end of the shark and disapear too. The predator only strikes when A. their likelihood of getting hurt is minimal, B. when the meal is of adequate value to make it worth their while, and C. where there is opportunity. I've not watched LMB that much under water (actually none while feeding) but if they are anything like salt water fish, they will lay in wait for opportunity rather than chasing every potential meal around wasting energy.

One of the reasons BG spawn in colonies is for protection. I snorkeled in my pond this summer and an 8-9" BG male is a formidable fish guarding its nest. The big males get the prime spots in the middle of the colony and the lesser males the surrounding, more vulnerable spots. So yes, some on the edge probably do get picked off. But a LMB is not likely to go bullying their way in the middle of a bunch of very aggressive BG bulls protecting their nests. Why bother or take the risk when there is food they can ambush for an easier, safer meal?


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Well said John.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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Well said...

The old adage "it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog" holds true once again! smile


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If my management strategy is working like I hope it is, those bluegills on the nests will be a minimum of 7" in length, hopefully 8-10". It would take a mighty big LMB to forage on those. What I do see quite often, is groups of smaller bass cruising the nesting sites and picking off those smaller BG that are always hanging around, hoping for an opportunity to rob nests of eggs.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving with family!

Once again, the replies show why PB is such a great forum. I pose a question, and members post their personal observations that answer the question.

Thanks to all.


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