Herd size optimization for herd improvement must be balanced with available habitat and can be judged by the condition of the deer (and adjusted likewise up or down). Parcel size is not as important to successful herd management as the availability of food and cover as it relates to giving the herd no reason to leave the parcel. Your belief that "nature knows best" is ideology, not science. Nature can be very cruel and knows nothing - it just is. The luxury of the "nature know best" religion is possible as a direct result of man being able to alter "what nature wants". Otherwise folks would be too busy trying to survive to ponder such things.
Controlled studies have show that Coyote predation takes up to 70% of the fawn crop each year. I have seen trail pics of Bobtail carrying day old fawns by their throat .
We have limited acreage and I consider the deer herd although wild to be part of my farm crop. Jut like the garden I fertilize and harvest I grow forage for deer which we harvest. We harvest only two a year making sure to leave seed for next year.
Its a sustaining environment for us and the deer. We eliminate the predators just like other predators do in the wild to each other.
So what size is your property RAH, and how many deer of a condition acceptable to you reside on it full time, year-round? If it truly can be reduced to mathematics, then we should be able to calculate just where your management strategy needs tweaking, whether in adjustments made to cover, forage, and or numbers of deer. I can do that fairly well with the fish in my ponds, after all. If you're not killing the numbers of trophy deer you desire, it would seem there has been a error in your strategy someplace. To what area do you assign the failure?
As far as my supposed belief that nature knows best, I wouldn't be raising bluegills to the size I am if I were content to sit back and watch nature turn my ponds into shallow swamps full of stunted lepomids. I do recognize nature's ability to adjust the population to suit conditions, however.
"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature’s answer." (Still trying to remember who said that...sorry!)
Got it.... Max Planck, theoretical physicist.
Last edited by sprkplug; 12/07/1507:15 PM. Reason: found name for quote.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
Controlled studies have show that Coyote predation takes up to 70% of the fawn crop each year. I have seen trail pics of Bobtail carrying day old fawns by their throat .
I understand. But my question is: Is that how it's supposed to be? if those predators weren't killing 70% of the fawns, would the deer become overpopulated? Nature is harsh after all, per RAH. But isn't this just a culling? And if we shoot the bobcats and the coyotes, would the deer population get out of control, just like removing too many LMB from a bluegill pond?
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
Controlled studies have show that Coyote predation takes up to 70% of the fawn crop each year. I have seen trail pics of Bobtail carrying day old fawns by their throat .
We have limited acreage and I consider the deer herd although wild to be part of my farm crop. Jut like the garden I fertilize and harvest I grow forage for deer which we harvest. We harvest only two a year making sure to leave seed for next year.
Its a sustaining environment for us and the deer. We eliminate the predators just like other predators do in the wild to each other.
At the farm it really irritates me to see a doe and new fawn walk past my game camera then 45 minutes later 3 coyotes pass the camera going the same direction......nose to the ground.
Think I am going to see if the goberment trappers still use the M44 in my area.
Just another perspective from perhaps a coyote's view,...the only creature he know's of that kills for fun is man and man is willing to kill him with extreme prejudice, when he is killing only enough of the weakest to feed his family, to protect man's fun. If he hunts creatures man hates like feral hogs or ground hogs, if man sees him he still kills him because it's fun. He does not understand. No matter what he hunts to feed his family, man kills him.
Just another perspective from perhaps a coyote's view,...the only creature he know's of that kills for fun is man and man is willing to kill him with extreme prejudice, when he is killing only enough of the weakest to feed his family, to protect man's fun. If he hunts creatures man hates like feral hogs or ground hogs, if man sees him he still kills him because it's fun. He does not understand. No matter what he hunts to feed his family, man kills him.
Good stuff, Bill......
My daddy taught me a long time ago to never ever kill anything that I wasn't gonna' eat..... "Every living creature has a purpose in this world son, and no man nor a boy with a BB-gun has any business playing god."
Plucking and cleaning that Black Grackle Bird really grossed me out. Luckily my mom got home before he made me cook it and eat it.
Just another perspective from perhaps a coyote's view,...the only creature he know's of that kills for fun is man and man is willing to kill him with extreme prejudice, when he is killing only enough of the weakest to feed his family, to protect man's fun. If he hunts creatures man hates like feral hogs or ground hogs, if man sees him he still kills him because it's fun. He does not understand. No matter what he hunts to feed his family, man kills him.
Not quiet 100% true. Many predators will kill more prey at one time than they can eat, even over the period of a few days. Wolves, feral/stray dogs, mink/weasels are the few that come to mind immediately. Also, just because an animal isn't killed, doesn't mean that it isn't stressed and possibly could lose it's fetus, or not make it through a hard winter. Also, if the prey animal escapes, it might have injuries that affect it later on. Same as fish in a pond dying from stress. Do the predators kill more than they can eat at once for fun? I can't answer that.
Do I hunt for fun? Well, I wouldn't call it that. I'm not laughing after I pull the trigger. Do I eat everything that I kill? Nope. I kill woodchucks because their digging under my barn will compromise the barn. I kill starlings and sparrows because they are preventing Purple Martins from using the martin house. I kill mice because they are in my buildings and sometimes in my house. About everything else goes in the freezer....... Coyotes? Haven't tasted one. Neither have I tasted a skunk. But, I'm like Catmandoo - about everything else has had a fork stuck in it, at least once.
As for letting nature take care of the prey animals, even if man were to stop hunting completely, I don't think that would ever happen. I take that back, that WOULD happen, but the outcome wouldn't be pretty. There are boom and bust cycles of Hares and Lynx, Fox and Lemmings, etc., without any intervention from man at all.
Man has altered the environment so much that the habitat for the different animals has changed and will never be reversed unless man vacates this planet. Whitetail deer, Rocky Mountain Elk, American Bison, Roosevelt Elk are a few of the top end prey that has been influenced by man altering the habitat.
Predators need to be controlled, or man just has to live with the consequences. Coyotes in California eating pets. Wolves killing and eating dogs. Mt. Lions, wolves and bears eating livestock. Mink, weasels, fox, raccoons, opossums, skunks killing and eating chickens/ducks. The list goes on and on.
Fox were the apex predator in the Midwest in the 50's, '60's and early '70's. There weren't many deer because of overhunting and habitat wasn't conductive to deer populations. Which was the major cause of low deer numbers? Good question, and I don't have an answer. Coyotes moved in when the deer population started to climb, and displaced both Red and Grey Fox. In areas where wolves are now common, they are displacing the coyotes.
Coyotes are very adaptable, and can live and flourish in close proximity to humans. Wolves on the other hand cannot. So, wolves controlling coyotes near populated areas just won't happen.
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Clarification someone? Differentiate between herd improvement and population expansion? Scott's program sounded to me like a plan to increase their numbers, not so much improve overall health.
Herd improvement could be the buck to doe ratio. Or managing (in a high fenced environment) for large antlers. If you increase the herd health, the numbers WILL increase, because does will have multiple births. If predators are managed, then the increased births will grow to adults. The State will issue more deer licenses or up the bag limit. All wildlife will benefit, not just the deer because of the $$ put into the pot from the funds generated by the Pittman-Robertson Act. Yes, that also is funded by fishing monies. But, I'd like to see a breakdown on just how much each outdoor sport contributes, and where the $$ goes. I'd also like to see how much $$ is contributed to wildlife by non hunting and fishing people. i.e. people that go out nature watching or bird watching, or just utilize the National/Regional/State Parks.
One can argue that nothing that an animal does is for fun. Humans created the concept of fun, but most that have spent much time watching different predators hunt might perceive that indeed they do enjoy it. They even incorporate hunting behaviors in their play (play is another term some also reserve for humans). Whether it is a coyote, bobcat, or a human hunter, removing more bucks than does decreases the competition among bucks and reduces the pressure for the most "fit" bucks to reproduce more than the "unfit" bucks. Part of fitness is the ability to carry around a big set of antlers and use them to fend off other bucks. My property is over 100 acres, most in wildlife habitat that we created over the last 25 years. The last 10 years have produced mature bucks (3.5+yr). The herd is significantly smaller than the is needed to produce very very healthy animals because enough hunters in my area remove more bucks (mostly yearlings) than does. As a result, I have removed a lot of does (within legal limits). And when that is not enough, I invite a friend to help. Very few if any deer spend 100% of their time on my land, but a lot of deer spend a lot of time on it. Its all about probabilities, not absolutes. Some bucks are completely nocturnal. As far as I know, the birth ratio of males to females is 1:1. Predator losses are about 1:1. Buck losses to rut stress and hunting are what skew the sex ratio. Hunting practices can be modified to affect that ratio. Managing what can be controlled is all one can do, and it does work. BTW- lower densities also help prevent disease epidemics.
Possum Kingdom Lake State Park, about 75 or so miles West of Fort Worth, had a thriving, actually huge, deer herd. No hunting in those days on State lands. And then one of our normal, long term, droughts hit. Emaciated herds were the norm. You could walk around and find quite a few corpses. People were feeding corn and hay. They ate it but didn't get the right nutrition. This was about 50+ years ago before wildlife management emerged.
Not a lot different that a pond that doesn't get proper management.
Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 12/08/1506:01 AM.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
It is a common practice to rationalize not doing what can be done, by listing all the things that cannot be done. We see it in all facets of life to justify inaction or continued action that is less than helpful (myself included).
As for letting nature take care of the prey animals, even if man were to stop hunting completely, I don't think that would ever happen. I take that back, that WOULD happen, but the outcome wouldn't be pretty. There are boom and bust cycles of Hares and Lynx, Fox and Lemmings, etc., without any intervention from man at all.
We have a very large ranch in west Texas that almost never gets hunted and I have seen the amazing boom and bust cycles you refer to. When the rains return whitetail and mule deer numbers go up. Also the rodent population explodes. Pack rats, prairie dogs, rabbits and hairs numbers skyrocket as do game birds like quail and dove. With that the predator numbers go up. Ground owls, hawks, Mexican eagles, coyotes, bobcat, cougar and rattle snake numbers increase.
And then the crash. The "black plague"(yes, that BP) hits the rodents reducing numbers by 80-90% off their highs. This affects the predators that starve or turn more of their attention to harder to catch prey like the deer.
I have witnessed this cycle going from very abundant(extreme) populations of animals to an almost barren landscape.
If we were able to intervene and control/flatten the swings up and down the animal population would benefit greatly.
RAH said - BTW- lower densities also help prevent disease epidemics.
I have personal experience with this having seen the results of to little take (predators and humans)and the resulting disease. It is far worse than you can imagine to deal with.
We have not had such climate fluctuation in central Indiana during my experience. Our droughts are far less severe. This does allow us more control due to the more stable environment. It helps that we have a couple streams, and have added 2 ponds and 5 wetlands. We still have the bunny and raccoon disease cycles though.
Your coyotes must be larger or a lot hungrier than those on our place, or else our cats are tougher. We have lost a couple over 25 years, but most coyotes in our neck of the woods won't chance an injury tangling with a cat. Now killing small dogs is a different story. We have a lot of coyotes! I do think they grow larger up there.
Your coyotes must be larger or a lot hungrier than those on our place, or else our cats are tougher. We have lost a couple over 25 years, but most coyotes in our neck of the woods won't chance an injury tangling with a cat. Now killing small dogs is a different story. We have a lot of coyotes! I do think they grow larger up there.
I think there is getting to be some dog in them. Not sure if you seen this picture of one we came across stuck in the fence. three of us got him out. He still wanted to bite the he!! out of us.
The boy got one last winter after we skinned him out he was 6 foot 1" nose to tip of tale.
I sat on a hill a few months back , looking down a pasture road that runs along the side of the pond. With a 243 in hand waiting on a yote to show up, when I see through the scope, what first looked to be a large dog, not looking like a yote at first glance, I continued to watch as he came toward me. When I did come to realize he was a yote, he side stepped into the brush. Not allowing me to take the shot. My point here is I swear he had some dog genetics or so it seamed. And guys, I have eaten coon and possum, its better than you might think, in fact it was pretty good eating. Coons will also kill and eat deer fawns. Tbar, when I managed the 3,700 acre place (7 years) in W. Texas, the quail populations varied greatly each yr due to the spring rains, as Dave and You described.
Tracy
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Tracy have you ever really seen a racoon take deer? I can see them scavenging a carcass but never taking one down. We would take any where from 200-300 racoon a year for their fur when the prices were over $25 each. Now at $15 each not really worth the time.
If you see any black or white in the coyotes there is some dog in there. The hard one to pick out is if there is any Shepherd in them. Then you need to look close at their muzzle length and width.
DonoBBD, No I have not seen it happen but it has been reported that a coon will take a small deer fawn(guessing the fawn is just a few days old) sorry, but I can't remember where I read it most recently. But after seeing some pretty big coons standing up on their back legs, some are pretty big. and when scoping out that yote he looked like almost having a real dark mane, which is what caused me to take too long of a look, which let him slide away.
Tracy
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
DonoBBD, Coon size reminds me of a story my son told a few yrs back. He was walking to his tree stand and was walking toward a deer feeder in the early morning hrs. Still dark but with a light. as he walked up to the feeder, he was meet by what he described as a REALLY BIG COON that stood on his back legs, Showing his teeth and hissing at my 32 yr old son. He said it scared the carp out of him lol
Tracy
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Tbar, when I managed the 3,700 acre place (7 years) in W. Texas, the quail populations varied greatly each yr due to the spring rains, as Dave and You described.
Tracy
The year this happened was 2006 or 2007. A small covey of Blues was 50 birds and a large covey was 100 birds. They came up in big dark clouds.....it was amazing. When we would shoot at quail rabbits would explode in every direction 5 - 10 at a time. There seemed like a cottontail or jack rabbit under every bush and I have a picture of my friend reaching down and picking up a live rabbit(They were seriously competing with the cows for grass). My friends wife liked to eat cottontails so he walked outside of camp and shot 9 in a ~ 10 minute hunt..... There were so many prairie dogs it wasn't even sporting to shoot them they let you get so close. We turned an 8 year old boy loose with a single shot .22 and he had hours of fun. The mule deer were not afraid of us(7 days out of season). They would come in and water at a pool 50 yards from our camp and would walk(not run) 75-100 yards ahead of our noisy jeep driving through the pastures. Your not going to believe this but I actually shot and killed two bobcats with one 12ga shell a 1/2 mile from camp. A HUGH animal population EXPLOSION followed by a CRASH to near zero in following years. I have lots of pictures.
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Coons will also kill and eat deer fawns. Tbar, when I managed the 3,700 acre place (7 years) in W. Texas, the quail populations varied greatly each yr due to the spring rains, as Dave and You described.
