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O.K. If you had a choice on what to stock in a pond for an additional forage species, what would you stock?
I'm not talking in any specific pond, nor any specific predator, just in generalities.
Also, how many to stock per acre, and what do you think they should cost?
(I know, I know, a lot of questions.)
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It all depends - goals , location , water quality etc.
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Both....!
BNM might be easier to spawn due to less precise spawning structure requirments?
arent BNM more of a bottom oriented fish?
Spotfin inhabit more middle column?
seems both would be ideal. But if you had to pick it would depend....
if LMB maybe SFS becuase they are a tad larger?
YP, WE, SMB maybe BNM?
I still say both...
Last edited by BobbyRice; 11/04/15 10:34 AM.
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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That's strange Scott, I'd expect you ta be answering a ? like that instead of askin it. All I know is what I've experienced so here it is. First stocked 10 lbs of FH in my 1/4 acre fresh pond with little vegetation in the spring. Around Aug I stocked a dozen or so breeder YP and 40 4-6" HSB. Yes, I said 40 and believe me I heard it from Cody. Well by mid Sept there wasn't a FH in the pond. Bill told me to remove about 30 HSB which I did and then the next spring I added around 100-150 of both SFS and BNM plus ample breeding facilities for both. I controlled the YP spawn that yr to two egg sacks (that I knew of) and my Eel grass and Lily pads prospered. By the end of the summer I had many many and several ages of both species. That was about 6 or 7 yrs ago. Last yr I added more BNM altho I was mistaken and should have put in more SFS. I have 7 SFS spawning facilities hanging from the pier and as long as I keep em clean there are eggs in em as long as the temp allows. I have 6 sunken and 2 floating pallets and see BNM eggs on the floating ones all summer. Both have done very well and I don't see an advantage for either one, just glad I have both. Last summer was different tho as I didn't see the clouds of newly hatched fish as I had in the past. My reasoning is that my pond now has lots of weed cover plus the factor that now I have spawning SMB and no longer control YP recruitment. I started micro fishing last yr and can stay as busy as I want catchin the SFS, BNM, yoy YP and Smb. An occasional 13" YP or 16" Smb on an ice fishin rig with 2# test and #10 hook is a real rush. There is so much forage that it's a bit challenging to catch the larger fish unless I use minnows, shiners or small YP. So after all that all I can say is stock both if possible. Hows that for a non answer?
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Just from growing them out in tanks. BNM aren't as stupid as FHM and could probably avoid predation a bit better. Spotfin's Spottail's and Emeralds grow pretty quick and eat just about any type of fish food you throw in. Emeralds are nasty tho. I've seen them attack gravid females of other minnow species and eat their bellies out. I just grew them larger for WE bait.
There are some 4"-5" minnows in the little pond. Don't really know what they are, but got a bunch from a bait shop called "perch minnows" back in June that were about 1.5" lg. The pond has a circular current to it and have been seeing them swimming against the current the past week or so. Never noticed that before.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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IMO stock the forage species to best match the behavior and niche of the predator species. When forage and predator species are well matched with good habitat both will coexist very well together and each will thrive.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/05/15 11:12 AM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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Bill, you know where the question is coming from. Bob-O, I've never messed with either, and since they seem to be in demand, I was wondering if it was worth the time and effort to try and raise some. So, going back to my original post, what species would you prefer to stock, how many to stock per acre, and what do you think they should cost? ewest: What species are stocked for what predator?
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Esshup, If you end up moving forward with raising BNM and SFS for sale, please get a license to ship to Illinois and surrounding states! Also, could you throw some papershells in those forage ponds and sell those as well? Availability of those three forage species sure would make a whole bunch of us happy and lined up with check book in hand!
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I'm looking into both Illinois and Michigan. The fish testing is more complicated than the license. But in Michigan, if a pond has an inflow or outflow, even if it isn't being used, the pond owner has to apply for a stocking permit, and I can't stock it until I have a copy of that permit in hand.
Then there's the extra paperwork involved. I have to see if the demand is there to cover the behind the scenes expenses too, not just the fish and transportation expenses.
I know some places in Illinois charge $3 per loaded mile to deliver fish.
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Overnight shipping I know is an option for craws. Would that work for minnows? FWIW I would make the 6 to 8 hour roundtrip to your place to pick them up if I can get at least two of the three species when I come.
Last edited by Bill D.; 11/04/15 08:26 PM.
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Bill, raising all 3 are on the radar. Just have to dig the ponds and have the well to furnish the water. The plans are already semi fleshed out how to lay out the ponds and how to deal with the excess water.
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I will be talking to a well driller in the next 2 weeks to see what it would cost per foot. I have a supplier for the actual pump and JKB and I have kicked around ideas for the power for the well pump.
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I'd add spottails rather than spotfins! Hehe.
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FWIW I think your biggest hurdle will be reaching and educating pond owners as to the benefit of BNM and SFS over FHM. My observation, FHM are cash cows to fish farms. Easy to raise, slow moving so most always get wiped out and many pond owners come back year after year for more. It is maybe not in the best interest of fish farms to tell their FHM customers their is a better option that they maybe only have to buy once. I would bet that 95%+ of pond owners in the US have never even heard of BNM and SFS. Just my 2 cents....educating the non Pond Boss pond owners will get you success.
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I'd add spottails rather than spotfins! Hehe. Any particular reason why?
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esshup, Bill D mentioned that maybe 95% of pond owners are not aware of the BNM or the Spotfin minnow and I am in that group. I am to lazy this morning to look them up, so can u explain the advantage or disadvantage? And what about them that makes them attractive to pond owners? Can they survive in southern ponds where water temps can get up there? This might determine market size or demand. And like Bill, Paper shell craws seam to be in demand along with grass shrimp. pricing of shrimp @ $1.00 each does not sound bad when supplying lets say 1000 or 500 of them. Is a minimum order of anything, such as bnm or sf or craws or shrimp possible? That might make it worth your time and $$ invested.
Tracy
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Thanks Tracy. Predatory fish grow better when they have a more diversified forage base. Yes, both (or should I say all 3?) of those minnow species do well in northern climates. Their temp tolerance is listed in the links. Yes, the shrimp are another option that I forgot about. Thanks! Here is the information on each species: Bluntnose Minnow Spotfin Shiner Spottail Shiner Cody Note- This info is from member CJBS: I stocked a few hundred spottail shiners into a 0.34 acre mostly mud/detritus bottomed pond. They're very easy to capture in volume when they make their spring spawning runs in the local rivers. I never had any sign of them reproducing. I've also stocked them into other ponds up to 4 acres in size with no signs of reproduction. The 0.34 acre pond I've studied very closely. The shiners can survive, as large adults do show up in seine surveys and minnow traps. Apparently their spawning requirements aren't met by most ponds. The species I've focused on is the eastern silvery minnow. It sometimes shows up mixed in with the spottail shiners during their spring spawning runs but in lower numbers. It spawns very differently though. I have had two excellent back to back spawns the past two springs in the 0.34 acre pond. I really like this species as it gets larger than most, commonly to 5" and it spawns very early in the season and is quite prolific. They were studied as a food source for Esox species YOY in hatcheries because of these attributes. Now that both HSB and SMB have been stocked into the pond, I'll be seeing how they hold up to predation. Eastern silvery minnows have several close relatives found throughout North America that may also be good pond forage candidates.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 05/06/16 09:09 PM.
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Tracy, In TX you should be able to get Glass/ghost shrimp from petsmart for about 12 cents each and have them do fine. The issue our northern partners have is the cold tolerance of them, they should be finein your area. They get a tad larger than the PK shrimp too (I believe).
Last edited by BobbyRice; 11/05/15 08:10 AM.
Goofing off is a slang term for engaging in recreation or an idle pastime while obligations of work or society are neglected........... Wikipedia
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I will be talking to a well driller in the next 2 weeks to see what it would cost per foot. I have a supplier for the actual pump and JKB and I have kicked around ideas for the power for the well pump. You mean we are getting closer?
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I'd add spottails rather than spotfins! Hehe. Any particular reason why? They are native to my state and the state would fight me bringing in spotfins
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fishm_n - look to see if your state has any shiners of the genus Cyprinella. They basically spawn the same as spotfins and some grow bigger than spotfins. The following list includes spotfin shiner and bluntnose minnow. https://www.sdstate.edu/nrm/gap/fishes/
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/05/15 07:27 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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I will be talking to a well driller in the next 2 weeks to see what it would cost per foot. I have a supplier for the actual pump and JKB and I have kicked around ideas for the power for the well pump. You mean we are getting closer? Yep.
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Water is the basis of all life, by design!
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Hall of Fame 2015 Lunker
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I will be talking to a well driller in the next 2 weeks to see what it would cost per foot. I have a supplier for the actual pump and JKB and I have kicked around ideas for the power for the well pump. You mean we are getting closer? Yep. I'll show you a cartoon of how I'm gonna do my outside control panel. Remember the one that was upside down with the legs to be mounted when you and Matt stopped by the shop?
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