Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Corrective stocking What to do?

Ben That is a bluegill; possibly came in with the RES or with the bass. Any idea how the bass got into the pond? Since you don't live at the pond possible good neighbors added the fish?

I figured as much, my thought also that it came in with the RES as it is the only one we have caught. It is possible someone someone stocked the bass but I was pretty vocal to friends and neighbors about placing anything in the pond. Not likely anybody put 10+ <6" bass in the pond as Ohio has the 12" min in public waters but I guess you never know. I am leaning towards they came from upstream. A few reasons why:

1) Have not seen, hooked, or felt anything over ~6"
2) I was seeing my LCS up until a major rain event where ditches/streams were flooding over their banks. We had HEAVY runoff into the pond.
3) My understanding was LMB spawned in similar ways to BG/RES. The only beds I have seen are RES and we walked the pond almost daily all summer.
4) Prior to the major rain event we saw nothing swimming with the lateral stripe, minus the LCS which hung out in the same spot everyday. Few weeks after the rain event I saw some fish with the lateral black stripe cruising the banks. I assumed they were my LCS but were too deep to positively identify. Now I am relatively confident they were LMB. Have not seen the LCS since the rain.

Not ruling out a "friendly neighbor" but haven't seen anything pointing to it. The property is gated/fenced, surrounded by farm fields and has a lane that goes back 600 ft before the property opens up. Also put up signs to the effect of don't stock fish it is a managed pond. The farmer next door keeps a pretty watchful eye on the place and challenges anyone that he is not familiar with, he is a great neighbor. As said before it is possible so I need to put up a game camera as an extra added check.

I still need to attack the inflow problem as we could have this same issue next spring or even later this year. Temporarily I am going to place straw bales across the inflow to (hopefully) filter any incoming fish. Later this fall we are going to widen the pond ingress and level it off to slow the rate of flow. Going to design it similar to the emergency spillway. Looking at using Bill D's rock idea as a more permanent solution.

Caught another one this morning so the total stands at 12. Catches are starting to slow down a bit but it has been cold. What do you think the odds are we can catch every single bass in the pond this fall before the spawn in the spring? Thanks for the positive fish ID.

Yes, just under 100 and still counting. This of course includes even the 5" guys and the few YOY that have been stuck in weeds that I've dragged up from the bottom while raking.
Last year I culled 36. It's likely that my pond will be better from all this fishing. That's what I keep telling my partner Pati! Ha ha.
The last two times I've fished the pond I've finally caught NO LMB! I feel like I'm getting somewhere.
How can one even guess at how many are still in there! I can now walk the bank and not see a bass or three every place I stop.

Hey Ben,

I finally remembered to take a couple pics tonight of how I used the rip rap at my pond access points for water. I got the idea here on the forum (I think it was Sparkie). Anyway, since I have put this approach in motion, my pond no longer turns to chocolate milk color when it rains. The visibility barely changes even after a 2 inch downpour. I have two major waterways that you can see here and each are receiving approximately a 30 acre watershed. My thought on using the same approach to "filtering fish" is that if it works for tiny soil particles it ought to work on fish.

I have the pond at low pool now to add the rip rap. When full, only a foot or so of the rip rap on the shoreline will show.

Bill D.

Ben

As long as ponds above your watershed consist of BG or LMB fisheries, you will always run a very high risk of invasive species being introduced. The only way around this is to completely divert that water from your pond through levies, etc. I have seen this happen many times - cool water species fisheries are especially vulnerable to upstream fisheries and invasive introduction.

You can still manage a YP/SMB pond however you'll need to employ very aggressive LMB/BG population management strategies and may have to supplementally stock SMB and potentially YP to keep their presence viable. It can be done, just wanted you to be aware of what you're up against.

Draining, seining, and nuking is an option - but be aware unless you divert water from upstream ponds you're one significant rain event away from invasive introduction.

Bill, place looks amazing, lots of updates since the last pictures!

TJ, thanks for confirming what I didn't want to believe!!! One of the reasons we have not nuked it is b/c of the risk of more LMB showing up, not worth it. Going to continue removing LMB. Saw 8 more cruising the banks yesterday, I got 2 of them with a shotgun. Don't have enough real estate for a levy system so may try to do what I can to minimize with the understanding we will never be able to eliminate. Only thing out of my plan I am worried about is the yearly fall stocking of trout to grow over the winter, may have strike it if I cannot keep LMB numbers heavily reduced. Thankfully no major problems with Bluegill at this point. Thanks.

Thanks Ben. Guess I should update my thread with some new pics.

Unfortunately, you may have to consider them at some point to keep the pressure off your other species.

Ben - your existing fishery combo will not negate trout in the fall. Just buy them at the 10"-12" sizes which are the ones commonly available for fall pond stocking and maybe the 8" size could work if you can keep most of the LMB at 10" to 13". Actually in your smaller pond, keeping the bass in the smaller size range is not that hard if you remove every bass caught. Supplemental stocking of YP and SMB would also need to be larger sizes of 6"-8" to minimize loss to LMB predation. The main disadvantage to having the LMB will be lack of forage fish for YP-SMB; although stocking pellet trained ones and feeding them will maximize their grow rates.

Ben follow Cody advice is my suggestion. If you are going to start over, be darn sure no upstream water will enter your pond. A levy can accomplish this - easy to build with a skidloader I built many at my farm, but it might cause another issue by eliminating upstream water leaving you with another issue of irrigation/pond levels...dichotomy for sure. Can your pond remain full without that water? Are there additional sources of runoff in your watershed which don't drain upstream ponds? Can you irrigate with a well to make up for lost water through runoff?

If this isn't an option, you can manage a LMB/SMB/YP/RES/BG pond - you will just need to fish it hard for BG/LMB and allow for some shallow vegetation to help YP recruitment. Supplemental stocking of SMB and YP probably necessary per my post and Cody, but it can be done. It would be a great experiment and would benefit the community to experience your success/challenges/etc. along the way. You will need to remove big numbers of BG annually, especially females, and you may be able to play with water levels to discourage LMB spawning per a Pond Boss article a while back. SMB actually dominated the fishery because the lake was drawn down annually after the SMB spawn and while LMB were on their beds. If you wait until LMB are bedding then draw down 4-5 feet you could help reduce/eliminate LMB reproduction/recruitment. Fill it back up once the water temps exceed LMB spawning requirements. Just a thought.

IMO, you are WAY too loose with friends or neighbors regarding fish introduction - it's no joke! I recommend having firm conversations with them all and instruct them to NEVER bring fish of any species, including FHM or GSH, to the pond for stocking or bait. This is your dream, you need to set firm boundaries to preserve it.

Bill C., thanks for the info on the trout. Plan called for stocking 10-12" every fall from Freshwater Farms so still in scope which is nice. I have every intention of keeping any LMB and BG I catch and have done so to date. No intentions at this point to stock SMB, plan called for HSB and WE. Yellow Perch will be pellet trained from Jim Brehm, hopefully he has larger sizes I can buy. I owe him a call tomorrow for stocking in early to mid Oct. If I stock SMB, they will be in the 5-7" range unless you know a source that has larger ones.

TJ, Lots of info there, thanks for taking the time.

Watershed
Watershed is 27 acres, estimated the runoff coefficient to be .43 based on landscape. There are 2 ponds upstream within the 27 acres. My understanding was they stocked catfish and that was it, however, the owners do not fish and ponds were there prior to them. The one guy I talked to that occasionally fishes the ponds has only caught catfish but if he is using chicken liver (or whatever) as bait which may explain the catfish only. Note to self, KNOW your watershed, not guesses, know it. Note 2, be KING OF THE HILL!!!!! Sprk good update on the homesteading thread.

Inflow
The inflow is currently a ditch. It enters my property a hair above the 1009' elevation mark and travels 50 feet where it starts to enter the pond at the 1008' elevation mark, normal pool is at 1006.5'. This fall we are going to widen the inflow ditch to 8 feet and make sure it has a nice even grade to it. Prior to my property there is 1000' of overgrown grass/weeds as part of a waterway. The sides slope up on both sides so the only way to divert water would be via drain tile, which was discussed with the county during planning stages to prevent too much turnover. If I were to take drain tile out and around the pond from the watershed, a 30" pipe would be needed for a 100-year rain event which is really what I am worried about. I know I can't afford 400 feet of 30" pipe. Again I am not a dirt guy, surveyor, or pond professional so maybe I am missing something. Going to get the topo maps back out and take a gander to make sure I didn't miss something.

Pond Level/Water Sources
Pond level is an entirely different issue/problem. Prior to digging the pond, I spent time with Soil and Water digging test holes and looking for a clay tile they swore ran through the property. We never found it, so fully expected to find it while digging the pond but we didn't. Sure enough 1.1 million gallons of water found that damn clay tile. We are presently down 2.5 feet with no significant rainfall in 6-8 weeks so I am not really sure how much water is needed. Another fall project is to dig up/find the tile and pack with clay which should fix the water loss. If not, need to have a long conversation with you about SoilFloc. Note that a core trench was dug around 60% of the pond beyond where the dam starts/stops, the few spots of sand were removed and packed with 2 feet of clay in 6-8" lifts, everything was compacted, to include the sides, with a vibrating sheepsfoot, and my outlet pipe has 2 anti-seep collars. I explain all this to answer the few questions. As of right now the pond cannot stay full w/o that water but that may change after applying said fixes. I have looked for other ways to tap into other watersheds by adding drain tile but either there is not one or I am not experienced enough to recognize one. Right now there is no well, or power for that matter, and would not keep up with the loss if there was one, hopefully that will change.

A pond is like a child, it worries you, keeps you up at night, takes lots of money, and is a pain in the ass but you still love having one and wouldn't trade it for anything.

Vegetation
We have planted vegetation but that stuff is stupid expensive. We bought some of each and planted in groups around the pond hoping for natural spread. All species are native to Ohio which was one of our requirements. Here is what we planted:

Water Celery (Vallisneria americana)
Pickerelweed (Pontederia cordata)
Arrowhead (Sagittaria latifolia)
White Turtlehead (Chelone glabra)
Blue Flag Iris (Iris virginica)
Cardinal Flower (Lobelia cardinalis)
Monkeyflower (Mimulus ringens)
Button bush (Cephalanthus occidentalis)

It is growing and will be a while before it provides adequate protection for fish. Thinking about getting some seeds of each variety next spring to see if we cannot expedite this process. With the pond down, even if it was established, it would not be very effective.

Fish
Before I make any major decisions need to continue fishing and sampling the pond. I am not convinced there is a lot of BG in the pond. I was a little shocked when I pulled out the one, still have not fished anymore out. I know there are more bass in there and still working on getting as many of them as I can. I have the ability to draw the pond down 5' via a gate valve so preventing a spawn may be the best option to stop successful recruitment. Do you recall what issue the article was in? If I cannot get all the LMB out (likely scenario) will I need to stock BG as instructed by Omaha? (Thanks Omaha, it never crossed my mind)

I will have to disagree on the too loose regarding friends and fish. I offended one friend regarding the subject and told another one I would shoot him in the leg if he took a fish near the pond. No live bait (fish) has been used (minus FHM, sourced from fish farm, hand sorted by me, and used by me) to fish. There are also signs posted around the pond stating "ABSOLUTELY NO FISH FROM OUTSIDE SOURCES, (This is a manged fishery)." If there is something I missed or could do better PLEASE let me know so I can adjust. We have potentially lost $75 in LCS, $200 in Papershell Crayfish, and $50 in FHM. The worst part, all the forage they would have created to get the YP a wonderful jump start is now a pipe dream!

Thanks again TJ and everyone else for all the advice!

Ben good work on the setting boundaries...it's not easy to do, I thought your previous posts suggested someone was bucket stocking, and wanted to encourage you to put your foot down.

Your forage establishment efforts weren't necessarily a waste - you should run a seine and see what you can sample before you lose heart.

Not to be a downer, but you have BG, and you will likely not eliminate them without a seine/drain/nuke session. They are there to stay. So you should be shifting your fishery management strategy to BG and LMB population management if you aren't starting over. That's my primary point - a single female BG can drop 80,000 eggs in a season. You can do the math - you'll never get ahead of them, but you might be able to manage them like I have done, Shawn Banks, Dr. Dave and others with BG/SMB fisheries. Shift your focus to long term management of LMB and BG now is my suggestion.

Mark Cornwall wrote the article on the SMB dominated fishery, sometime in the last year. He suspected the unique dynamic of the SMB dominated fishery was due to perfect timing on lake drawdown when LMB were on their beds [sometime in late May in NY]. It's simple: When water temps are rising to the appropriate temps and LMB are starting to nest, drop your water levels to disturb the nesting LMB. That could be 3 - 5', you'll need to determine the level. This should help you either expose LMB nests/eggs and prevent recruitment, or drive LMB from their nest sites and prevent a spawn altogether. Just a thought, it's something I would definitely do in your situation. With appropriate angling pressure on BG and LMB, you could still manage the pond for the species you originally planned for. I am proof positive one can manage a cool water species fishery with existence of BG and BH. Just takes some attention and hard work.

TJ, I thought it was really easy to be vocal when spending $18,000 on a pond, almost $1000 in fish (includes planned fish), and many hours for planning, construction, and management. I posted early summer about a potential bucket stocking but it would not have been from anybody I know as all were informed prior to the pond filling. There is a pretty high possibility I would sue for damages (cost of killing and re-stocking) if I ever caught anybody doing it, friend or not.

Let's say for a second I am luckier than a 15 year old at the Bunny Ranch in Nevada. If there are no more Bluegill will they need to be stocked? Also, is it even possible to fish out all the LMB or is it a futile effort? Will the LMB spawn this fall, all are still under 7"?

In this month's PB Mag, in the 'Ask the Boss' section, Al Boenker from Fort Worth, TX wrote in describing a home built device to stop the movement of small fry from creek to lake. Is this a viable solution as it would probably be pretty easy to implement in my situation?

I am still convinced the fish came from upstream but it is possible someone got in and bucket stocked some larger LMB that spawned. Would I see larger (12"+) LMB cruising the banks or would I never know they were there w/o catching them?

I know why you say switch to a LMB/BG management strategy but I am not ready yet. May be from stupidity, unfounded optimism, or the shear challenge. Come Spring I would assume I am going to have to switch over. If I can figure out a levy or some other way to stop fish from entering, we are going to kill it off and start over.

Thanks for all the input and advice, don't know where we would be without you guys!

Sorry not sure I understand. You are now trying to establish BG - why would you want to stock them? I don't understand your goals apparently. I thought you wanted a SMB/YP fishery and if you do you'll need to manage the LMB and BG population very aggressively. Now you are talking about stocking BG, so I'm somewhat confused. Want to help, but apparently need some help myself first.

If you eliminate spawning/recruitment, it is theoretically possible to extirpate any fish species in a pond. Whether you can do that with LMB or not is the question. Typically BG and LMB are permanent residents of a fishery once introduced, which is what I've been trying to convey through my posts. Only way to eliminate BG or LMB is through starting over.

Sorry, Omaha indicated now that I have LMB I will need to stock BG. Every word I have read says if you have LMB you need BG and vice versa. If it so happens one lone bluegill hitchhiked in the bag, I understand not likely, will BG need to be stocked to keep the predation down on wanted species?

Goal is RES/YP/HSB/WE pond with an annual fall stocking of trout. I have thought about SMB at some point with a summer stocking of tilapia but have not decided yet.

I have no intention of stocking BG unless it is absolutely needed due to the LMB. I understand where there is one bluegill there are more but want to catch more than 1 before making any decisions. Goal this fall is to fish out every LMB (and BG) as possible, hopefully all of them.

We are a minimum of 4 years out before we are able to kill off the pond. As you stated though, need to fix the upstream waters issue prior to doing that or we will always have LMB in the pond.

And you'll always have bg in the pond.

I know but I am hard headed Thanks for the help!

Nothing wrong with a certain hard-headedness determination. I think we all want to see you achieve your goals and enjoy what you've accomplished in as short a timeframe as possible, but the LMB/BG issue is as you know counterproductive to those goals. I feel the concern expressed here is that your pond will suffer the same fate over and over again, and we would hate to see you endure the same outcome multiple times.

If your timeframe allows and you are comfortable with the progress, then maybe you can make some headway on the upstream issues and fish the pond heavily to get a feel for what you have. The trouble is, and I realize you are aware of this, it doesn't take a entire population of BG/LMB to upset your plans....it takes very few fish. It's going to be very tough, near impossible even, to eradicate them all. Certainly keeping them out will be another major issue. Speaking for myself, I would hate to see you put extensive time and effort into the project only to never have it realize it's full potential.

I do appreciate the desire to see one's goals through to fruition, and I'm eager to see what you come up with for the upstream dilemma, as well as what you find in your pond this fall. Very interesting thread, and I hope you continue to share your progress with us. Quite informative.

I could have been more clear, Ben, my apologies. Looks as if it's been addressed, but to elaborate on my mention of needing bluegill at some point, largemouth need bluegill, bluegill need largemouth. This isn't a rule, necessarily, alternatives are possible, we've seen it, but in most bodies of water, they need each other. You could take the suggestions in this thread and keep a close eye on things. Wait to add bluegill until you believe you need to, when either your desired species begin to struggle, or your largemouth begin to take over...both scenarios likely caused by the other.

Josh you're 100% correct - if fishery is going to feature LMB, you're going to have to feed them. Since LMB and this planned fishery were in conflict with eachother, we started advising him to eliminate LMB as much as possible with multiple suggestions. Cool water fishery is possible with BG, just requires some management strategies. I still think fishing heavy for LMB and lake drawdown while they're on beds can work to control, or possibly eliminate population. No one has reportedly tried it yet on the forum, but we've seen it can work.

for golden shiner as bait, clip the tail agressivly before baiting or put the hook deeper than ussual. Then any escapey should not last long. It would be diffacult for a dozen mortal wounded shiners to start a population but still slightly posible. Catch some of your young res and use them! Hehe, ya you'd probably use the shiners....

Wanted to update. Total LMB caught is at 20. The last 4 or 5 caught took quite a bit of work. Past week and one half has produced only RES. I have been going out at peak sun to see if I can spot any cruising the banks but have not seen any. Does NOT mean they are eliminated but definitely have put a substantial dent in the population. Going to continue visibly looking for them during the day and angling in the morning and evenings. I am now contending with the YP added this past Friday so I think it may continue to be some hard fishing.

Have not caught any more BG at this point but like TJ says I am convinced we will have a BG explosion next Spring. What would a BG x RES look like? A few of the stocker RES I have caught have blue coloring on the lower jaw back to the ear tab, is this indicative of a hybrid? If it is a hybrid what does that mean long term as it was an original stocker?

Some gillcracker photos in this thread, Ben. (BG x RES)

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=347793

So our crusade to rid the pond of LMB failed, I think. We put a pretty big dent in them but as suggested above it is extremely difficult. We had not see one in a long while. Caught this earlier in the week. He was 13.75" and 1.67 lbs, with a RW of 120.34%. Coming off winter I was impressed but not enough to spare him from the compost pile. He appears to be from the original upstream wash-in July 2015, we have yet to see LMB reproduction or another rain event like we did from that year. Keep waiting for it to happen so we can start another LMB assault.

Keep at it. You can do it. I had Crappie in my pond and I was able to fish them all out. I am slowly transitioning my pond from a LMB pond to a SMB/HSB pond with Bluegill and RES. There will probably always be LMB in there, but every one caught that isn't tagged is removed, no matter if it is 4" or 20"+.

Target any LMB you see making a nest, and any adult LMB you see guarding a ball of YOY LMB.