Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Renovating Erickson-Percival Reservoir

A Pond Boss Group Project:

I'm in southcentral Nebraska, and presently own a 18-20 acre lake. In our area the lakes tend to have terrible water turbidity issues due to ag run off and negatively charged clay particles that have a tendency to stay in suspension. To make matters worse my pond has been overtaken by common carp. It appears to me as though this pond was the victim of bucket stocked carp decades ago. Currently my water clarity averages roughly 4 inches, although it does clear up some when the water gets cold and carp tend to go more dormant, or at least slow their activity. I will try to include aerial photos in subsequent posts to show my clarity issues. What I'm planning to do is attack the water quality issues without the help of rotenone (initially) and hope to get anyone involved in the pond boss community who may have ideas/suggestions on how to help me attain my goals and objectives.

Objectives/Goals:
1) Trophy Catfishery - My first objective is to create a trophy catfishery. The pond already has plenty of channel catfish due to light natural reproduction and with TJ's assistance has recently been stocked with 150 blue catfish. As of a year ago I installed one feeder and have gone thru roughly 600lbs of food since. I hope to add another feeder next year and feed a larger quantity.
2) Improve water quality - As this project evolves I'd like to move away from a catfish heavy fishery to a pond that can support fish such as white crappie and bluegill, and have them thrive. Also at this time there is absolutely zero rooted vegetation due to the overabundance of carp. I hope to change that situation.
3) Evolve into a panfish flyfishery - Over the next 10-20 years I'd like to shift from a trophy catfishery (and no carp) to an environment in which bluegill, crappie and possibly bass can thrive. The thought of float tube fishing for crappie and bluegill once I retire is intriguing to me.
4) Create a learning environment for my sons - I presently have 3 and 4 year old boys. I'm going into this well aware that my fastest and most likely solution is to rotenone the pond and start over. Due to my uncle owning part of the pond and him not wanting that done, I am taking the holistic route at this time. If in 10-12 years if I haven't made any headway, I'd love for my boys to make it a school or FFA project. Possibly get their chemical applicators license, apply rotenone, and begin to manage the pond in the way they'd like to manage it. I hope this thread serves as an archive of the history of this pond.

Methods:
1) Stock top down apex predator - As mentioned above, 150 blue catfish have already been stocked. The stocking of them was with the assumption they would consume carp from larger sizes on down within the next few years. Consideration was given to pike and/or muskie, but due to my water clarity issues I assume flathead catfish and blue catfish were the only viable option. Availability and cost of Flathead catfish seem to make blue catfish my best option at this time. 150 are stocked now. Next spring I hope to acquire 500-1000 more.
2) Carp management via fyke net - Next spring I plan to purchase a fyke net very similar to esshup's to assist in removal of carp and probably remove all channel catfish below 20". This biomass will be transferred via filet knife into the blue catfish and larger channel catfish that remain. Bruce and I also own a 100' seine that may be used some. But due to the labor intensive nature of seining my pond, a fyke net will be the main resource used to remove larger carp. Scott's net is linked below.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=385343&page=1

One of the deciding factors in using a fyke net rather than other methods is the results from this study....
http://www.carpbusters.com/documents/Gilligan%20et%20al%202005%20carp%20removal%20in%20Australia.pdf

That link is no longer available so I wanted to add the summary of it here.....
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/research/areas...er_-_tesing_603
3) A carp nest/fry predator - This is still an area under evaluation by myself. Having discussion with TJ and others, I have ideas of stocking more crappie, bluegill, hybrid bluegill, redears and/or golden shiners. I've had one pond boss member tell me that they stocked redears to assist in carp control as redears prefer to consume carp eggs. So far I have not found literature on such but will continue to research. Of consideration as well is building a grow out pond and growing crappie and/or bluegill for a season and then stocking. Knowing most of them will likely succumb to my Blue Cat population, I'm holding off on this for the time being. Stocking Golden Shiners is also an option I've considered in hopes of them consuming large amounts of carp eggs, but without vegetation of any sort I think they may not survive. I'm certainly open to suggestion on this subject.
4) Rotenone - Ultimately, if I don't make headway and I take possession of the entire pond (likely at some point) I may have to resort to Rotenone. As stated above, when my boys hit the age in which they can take ownership of this project, and if they desire to Rotenone and start over this may and likely will be what needs to be done. But in the meantime I would like to learn something thru this project. Worst case scenario, I end up with a trophy catfishery and I use carp to enhance that catfishery.

What I hope to learn/study:
1) Catfish Gape- I would like to contribute to Bill Cody's catfish gape study. Obviously with the regular use of a fyke net I will have the ability to take measurements on hundreds of blue and channel catfish of many sizes. Hopefully this can assist and enhance Bill's records.
2) Water Quality - Right now my secchi disc readings are roughly 4". When removing carp I plan to count and weigh the fish. The total numbers and mass will be recorded and compared to any changes in secchi disc readings. I hope within 3-5 years the blue catfish start to control carp numbers, or at least assist me in my effort.
3) Relative Wts of panfish as compared to water clarity - Currently this pond has a small population of white crappie. Their body condition is terrible. Presently I don't know what their relative weight is, but I will get a handle on that when netting them next spring. I'm hoping to see an increase in both numbers and relative wts of the crappie and other panfish as I remove carp biomass and get an improvement in my secchi disc readings.

So to review, at this time I don't plan to Rotenone due to my neighbor and partial pond owner not wanting to do such. I plan to experiment with a holistic approach to carp removal. Any and all input is welcome from Pond Bossers. I plan on this being a decade or longer project and hope to archive some good information in this thread. I am absolutely open to suggestion as to what others would like to see me try at this time. My only true objective is to have fun and learn a few things while playing in my pond

Here is the picture of my two ponds. Notice the clarity difference between my large pond and the .6 acre pond that is up toward my house.

Picture of Blue Cats being stocked last week. Terrible picture because it was so dark. Fortunately TJ helped me in obtaining 150 BC averaging 10-11". Thanks again TJ.

NEDOC, I'm in your neighborhood and would love to help with your project(s) in the future. I'm well versed at doing dirty work at slave wages.

This will be interesting!

Carp are scatter spawners - no nests are built. Due to the turbidity of the water, having bowfishing tournaments won't have the desired outcome (I believe).

Have you done a bucket test and confirmed that the turbidity is due to mechanical means and not ionic imbalance? As weird as it sounds, two ponds side by side CAN be different.

The trophy catfishery sounds interesting, and I think that it is the correct route to take at this time. Whether Blues will do the trick or Flatheads will be needed is the question. I think that more than one Fyke/hoop net will be needed. Make sure you have a large stable (wide) boat to use when setting the fyke net - larger ones are difficult to bring in to a boat when they are loaded with fish. If there are large snappers in there with the fish, they make you think twice about reaching in there and removing fish by hand.......

A thought. If the common carp population is large, I remember reading about bank fishing tournaments in Europe, and how they are (were?) becoming popular here in the USA. I wonder if you could contact them and arrange to have a tournament there?

Ask Fatih and Keith; fishing from the shore for carp, using whole kernel corn for bait and chumming with corn works.

To accomplish your goals, I think using a fyke/hoop net is great. Any catfish caught can be released back into the pond, carp removed.

Josh, if NEDOC and his uncle allows it, do you think a fishing derby or tournament could be done, maybe as a benefit to any group to raise money or awareness for them? With Carp being the only fish that is of any "value"?

NEDOC, I'll put out feelers for Flatheads - I'm curious now about sourcing them.

Omaha - good to know. I was hoping to put together a Nebraska Pond Boss Pheasant/Quail hunt on my property this fall and was planning to give you a heads up as I presumed you were in the area. Between Shorty, Bruce, TJ and you I think we could get a few of us together for a hunt.

Scott, I have done the bucket test. My pond clears up when allowed to settle. Not as much as I'd like but enough improvement I think it'd be worth a rotenone treatment if the opportunity presents itself. Since I started this thread, now may be a good time to do it again in mason jars and provide pictures. I am planning a fishing tournament every August or September with carp more valuable in the scoring system. I'll see how that goes. And any help on sourcing Flatheads would be great. My true objective is for TJ, Bruce or Shorty to be pulled under in a float tube while flyfishing for catfish

I could definitely help put something like that together. Shoot, in the spring, I have a number of bowfishing friends that would love to help thin the herd.

Some of the local bait shops (free bait or lure coupons) and maybe even Bass Pro Shop or Cabelas might be willing to contribute prizes for the carp fishing tournament. Prizes for most carp, largest carp, smallest carp, oldest-youngest angler, a female division, etc. If you had to pay to net or electroshock the lake that money could be used for tournament prizes.

NEDOC, removing carp before they spawn in June would be better. Around here, the carp spawn around the same time as Bluegills.

Pheasants? In Nebraska?

Plenty of pheasants and quail around here. Not South Dakota numbers. But good enough to keep my wife mad at me for 3 mos of the year!

Saw the first one, I think ever, just this year. Not on my property though. We had quail when I was younger, but haven't seen any in a while. Crazy number of doves, though.

Quail numbers are good this year, I have been hearing them call back and forth almost every day this summer.

I never see or hear quail or pheasant here. I suspect the fox in the area are one of the reasons. I see those all the time. One thing I would like to do when I retire is raise and release both quail and pheasant. We have a very healthy wild turkey population but that also seems to be noticeably dropping. Again, I suspect the fox.

Don't raise and/or release pen raised pheasants or quail. Been there. Done that. What usually happens in my experience is that the pen raised birds, no matter how well managed, tend to be easy pickings for predators. Over time they will draw increased predator numbers and then when pen raised birds are gone, the increased number of predators are left to prey on the wild birds. My experiences have always led to decreased number of wild birds. My time and money has always been better spent on enhancing habitat for wild birds.

If anyone is interested I can post a quail management calendar on the wildlife management forum. It's a timeline of habitat projects you can do each month to improve your quail habitat. I put it together a while back for our local Pheasants Forever chapter.

NEDOC please post the calendar. My problem is, in the absence of native birds anywhere in the area, who is going to live in that habitat? How do I go about reintroducing the species if raising them and releasing them doesn't work?

In your case where there are no wild birds, I suppose you could try releasing some. If it doesn't work you could trap wild birds and release them.

I've seen studies on quail that even if the first generation of released birds survive to the following spring to mate, it's very very rare that pen raised birds are successful at reproduction. The theory is that mother birds communicate and teach chicks parenting skills while chicks are in the egg. Incubated birds lack that development. If you've ever observed a hen sitting on eggs they are constantly communicating. So I suppose it may be true.

NEDOC, what you experienced with the birds is exactly what California experienced in trying to establish pheasants and turkeys. Pen raised birds didn't last a week in the wild. They didn't know enough to roost up off the ground in trees at night, so they got eaten. Only when they imported wild birds from other states did they take hold.

A friend was the person in charge of District 5 in California and that's what he told me.

Same down here Bill. Pheasants have never lived here. I think Interstate 70 is about the dividing line in Illinois. Quail and rabbits used to be plentiful but not now. I don't know of anyone who still hunts quail and very few rabbit hunters. Foxes, coyotes, hawks, owls, possums and coons have about wiped out everything that lives or nests on the ground. Recently bobcats have been added to the mix.

Quail are making a comeback here but still not lots to be found.

"Libbys" whole kernel corn, I'm convinced it must be "Libbys"!


Fatih and his 14.5 lb Carp at Esshup's lake house!

Wish they'd make a comeback here. I used to enjoy laying in bed for my Sunday afternoon nap with the window open and hear the quail hollering back and forth. Haven't heard or seen one in probably close to 10 years. Once a redtail hawk finds a covey of quail, it will come back day after day until it kills them all.

My observation is a fox does the same with young turkeys

Just a thought...Trot line baited with corn or dough ball should take out a bunch

Carp will get hookshy fast - very smart fish - but angling would be a fun way to help remove some fish. I think FHC will eventually be necessary to stock to hammer the larger adult carp, at least at 1-3/ac. You'll never eradicate the carp, but hopefully get density low enough for clarity to improve then start on establishing your game fishery. LMB could have provide enough pressure on age 0-1 fish and the cats take over from there on age 2+ fish. It's feasible HSB could also help down the road. I think your plan is sound and I'm excited to work it with you - it should be a blast!

TJ is correct. Carp become hook shy very quickly. I have tried rod and reel control of carp for 15 years and made no headway. Although a few trees have grown to great heights thanks to my efforts and the use of carp as fertilizer.

I have had a good break here recently. A while back I was talking to my neighbor and he was telling me about a pond on his property. Since harvest is done on his property I drove over there last night. I threw a minnow trap in and put hip waders on. The pond is about 1/5 of an acre in size (perfect size for my seine), at least 4.5 ft. deep and apparently has an abundant population of fathead minnows (I assume no predator fish of any sort). He has already OK'd me using it as a grow out pond. The only negative to this pond is that it is very difficult to access from May - Sept. I can walk about a quarter mile of corn to get to it, but my management options are limited. My question is, what can and should I grow out to help me with the above stated goals?

1) Blue Catfish - I could wait until my BC are large enough and try to get them to spawn in this pond. My concern is there is plenty of overflow during heavy rains and I'd hate to lose them. I'm leaning toward purchasing BC at hatcheries and possibly building Catfish spawning structures in my large pond to encourage spawning. But growing them out is an option.

2) Bluegill - I'm not sure they'd be an effective nest raider or eat carp fry, but they would be easy to grow out and certainly wouldn't help the carp population. Negative - they wouldn't hurt my carp population much. Positive - They would take to feed well on my big pond.

3) Crappie - I already have a small reproducing population of crappie in my large pond. I'm assuming if I can improve water clarity they'll begin to take over. I believe I'll assess their population next spring with my fyke net and decide if a grow out pond to supplement them would be beneficial.

4) Golden Shiners - TJ mentioned at one time stocking GSH as they are notorious nest raiders. Growing them out each year and seining them out for stocking come fall seems intriguing. Positives - They'd rob carp nests and be a great addition to the food chain for trophy cats Negatives - not much addition to angling in the big pond.

5) Largemouth Bass - I have had LMB reproduction in my large pond before. But not to a significant degree. They seem like the most efficient predator of 0-1 carp. This may be my best option. Positives - They would hit 0-1 carp hard. Negatives - They most likely won't take to food and therefore won't thrive as a sight feeder in the big pond.


I'll try to include grow out pond picture as soon as I return.

What say you Pond Boss?

Golden Shiners.

With the goals to use other predatory fish to eat the carp, adding other fish that might take their place feeding those predatory fish detract from the goal.

2nd choice would be Bluegills.

Least impact on your goals for the large pond after Golden Shiners.

If the seine has a large enough mesh to NOT catch the FHM, it would be a perfect scenario. Only seine out the larger fish to transfer, leaving the forage fish in the small pond.

You'd only need to stock 2-3 pairs of BG in the small pond. For GSH, a couple pounds.

To access the other pond during the crop season, what would reparation cost to cut in a track wide enough for an ATV and a small trailer? Or would the $$ be better spent just buying fish?

Another option I should probably consider would be stocking GSH in conjunction with BG or LMB in the grow out pond and try to remove all but a handful of adult fish each fall with a seine.

I probably could get an access road for an ATV, but I'm not really sure I need to. I'm thinking at this time I'll stock it in the spring, and harvest the grown out fish in the fall. I could walk to the grow out pond every month or so just to check on it, but doubt I will need access to it while corn is growing.

I do kinda like the thought of GSH. But I know so little about them I'm not sure how they'll affect my large pond. I need to study up more on them. So input from guys such as yourself is greatly appreciated.

http://www.fishbase.se/summary/276

In smaller ponds, (around an acre), if the ponds have established populations of LMB, and not a lot of cover, the GSH population isn't sustainable due to LMB predation. (IHMO)

In larger BOW's, with sufficient suitable habitat for them, they will stay established.

If you look at different websites that describe the GSH, it's diet and life cycle, I'll bet you find more saying that it eats zooplankton, plant/insects than you will find ones say that it eats fish eggs.

Corey my thought is until we improve clarity, we're going to have a hard time getting any species going. Not saying it's impossible, but I just can't see successful LMB predation with 4" visibility. I think you should aim for 20-30 BC/ac and another 1-3 FHC/ac and give it 3-4 yrs. Once clarity improves, I think you can start fishing for the big cats and start aggressively stocking BG, GSH, and LMB. FYI I have good sources for those fish - the BG and LMB probably free.

I think you could easily grow out BC in cages around a dock/pier in the small pond near your home to sizes you're comfortable releasing into the main pond. A lot less effort than grow out pond and seining...

I had the good fortune of having one of my buddy's come out to practice flying his drone last night. At about the 1:30 mark we begin feeding Aquamax LM to my channel cats.

Another video I'm adding for archiving purposes. Stocking SMB and YP in my small pond by my house. Thanks TJ!!

Very cool, NEDOC!

And here I was looking for reasons NOT to want a drone!

Dang!

Me too Keith.

Well, I appear to be failing the jar test to clear my water. So I'm guessing ridding my pond of carp won't help as much as I'd hoped. In a way, this may be good news. As now I can simply focus on my short term goals of creating a trophy catfishery. I still plan to approach it by using a fyke net to remove carp, if for no other reason than free food for the Blue Catfish. And I'd also like to get rid of them in hopes of getting some rooted vegetation some day. The only way this really shifts my plan of action is that it makes me lean toward using my grow out pond as Golden Shiner pond rather than BG or crappie. Any thoughts? Another thought......... I already get mild catfish spawning with channel cats. Should I install spawning structures to help with spawning? Hoping my BC will eventually spawn as well?

If you put in spawning areas for the catfish, mark them so they can be removed when you don't want reproduction.

Getting the water less muddy will help the very bottom of the food chain first, and that will work it's way all the way to the top.

I wanted to link this article as it discusses carp affecting macro invertebrates and macrophytes. Obviously affecting the food chain from the bottom up (as mentioned by Scott above).

http://www.uidaho.edu/~/media/Files/orgs/CNR/wildlifefish/Faculty%20publications/Scarnecchia/BonneauScarnecchia2015Biomanipulation.ashx

Thanks NEDOC for the post-it's a good read.

Pretty amazing reading on carp control methods here as well.........

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1162&context=ncfwrustaff

NEDOC, thanks once again for the latest post. I find it fascinating to read of such a potential carp control method.

For many years I've considered the quantity of carp biomass in so many of our lakes to be a potential source of protein for commercial harvest. If only there were an economically feasible way to mine that protein. It appears a technique for efficient harvest exists.

Cat food, dog food, aquamax, fertilizer made from ground up carp? Go for it!

A pretty awesome Thanksgiving experience..... It's very rare to have a common loon in SC Nebraska (if ever at all), but apparently a wounded one decided to spend his dying days on my small pond. He was here for 3 days before he became too weak and died. What an unbelievable animal. If watching the video turn up the volume.

That outdoor channel show called bottom feeders is al about the carp harvest in Midwestern lakes and rivers. They are taking a lot of meat out of the water that's for sure.

I'm bummed the Loon died, but glad you had a chance to host for a while. I don't think I've ever seen or heard a Loon in NE before...guess it's migrating South? Wonder where they Winter over?

OK, here's this:

Concord – February 27, 2010 – If you are one of those hearty New Englanders who stayed in New Hampshire this winter and didn’t flock south to a tropical locale like some other folks I know, you may be wondering, “Where do the loons go in winter – do they go south, too?”

Common Loons, with their characteristic black and white “checkered” back and wings, black head, white “necklace” around their throat, and red eyes, have left New Hampshire for the winter. But they haven’t gone far-and they certainly aren’t basking in the sun in some exotic and warm vacation paradise.

Banding and satellite tracking studies conducted by the Loon Preservation Committee have discovered that loons escape the freezing of New Hampshire’s lakes and ponds by spending the winter off the coast of the Atlantic Ocean – from Maine to Rhode Island.

While there is a lot that biologists still don’t know about loon migration, they do know that loons don’t leave New Hampshire because they feel like it, but rather, because they have to.

Loons are heavy birds with very large feet and, like an airplane, they need long runways to take-off. Loons run awkwardly across the water surface for approximately a quarter of a mile to pick up speed before being able to take fight. If the lake is covered with ice, they can’t run for lift-off and they become trapped and eventually perish.

Loons don’t leave New Hampshire in search of tropical waters down south where the lakes don’t freeze because these waters are too dangerous. Alligators and water bodies that are too warm or too shallow for diving and hunting create big problems for these birds.

The adult loons generally migrate first in large groups, usually two or three months after their chicks hatch and after their beautiful black and white feathers have been replaced by plain brownish-grey feathers. Adult loons leave their offspring behind until their flight feathers become long enough to support their weight. This time also allows the chicks to become capable of surviving on their own before they fly to the ocean.

Typically, loon chicks do not leave their birth lake until just before it freezes. Biologists do not know exactly how the young loons know where to go. This is one of many mysteries.

Chicks won’t return to their birth lake until they are approximately three or four years old, and they won’t be able to reproduce until they are six or seven.

Once they reach the ocean, loons must adapt to life in salt water. Fortunately, loons have salt glands in their skull between their eyes that remove the salt from the water and fish they eat and excrete it from ducts in their beak.

The ocean provides very clear, deep open water for the loons to dive and fish. They group together, riding the waves and hunting in the shallow waters trapping schools of fish and filling their stomachs.

In late-winter, their dull winter coat is replaced by their beautiful black and white breeding coat, replacing their worn out feathers with strong feathers to fly with, a process called “molting.” Loons lose all their feathers at once, instead of losing one or two at a time like most birds, because they need a complete set of flight feathers to hold up their heavy bodies.

If a loon were to try and fly with just a few missing feathers, its wings wouldn’t be big enough to hold up its body. During this approximately two to three week molting period, loons are unable to fly and are in great danger. They must expend a lot of energy to grow new feathers and they have less energy to fight off illnesses or toxins stored in their body fat.

Make no mistake – life on the ocean is not easy for these creatures. They must not only adjust to the stress of molting and a different diet, they must also endure the stress of rough coastal waters and stormy weather, marine pollution and parasites.

Biologists suspect that loons return to the same general area where they were born, often returning to their very own birth lake. Loons will typically arrive on New Hampshire’s lakes and ponds just after ice-out, sometimes on the very next day!

Thanks for the heads up Bobby. I'll have to catch that show.

TJ, interesting read. But leaves me wondering where he was coming from and where he was going. Hmmmmm..........


From Nebraskabirdlibrary.org............

Where in Nebraska: Fairly common spring and fall migrant in the eastern portion of Nebraska. Locally uncommon summer visitor in the west. No breeding records in Nebraska.

Nebraska Seasons: Look for migrant Common Loons April- May and Oct-Nov.

Coming from CA and heading too...TX? Does TX have seasonal loons? Gulf of Mexico?

There's this:

Loons return to northern forested lakes and rivers in the springtime, usually in April or early May. The breeding range includes Alaska and much of Canada south to portions of Washington, Idaho, Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, New York, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine.

Breeding loons, like those radiomarked in this study, leave breeding areas in late October to early November.

Loons spend the winter season along the Atlantic, Pacific, and Gulf of Mexico coasts. Some loons winter on inland reservoirs.

My folks had a loon on their old pond twice in 20 year period. Last spring I saw two loons while fishing at Branched Oak Lake.

Speaking of Branched Oak Lake, did you hear about the Whooping Cranes that were spotted there a few weeks ago?

They have a google image of their migration pattern that I'm trying to post but can't seem to get it done. It appears we are on the very western edge of MN and Canadian loons migration to the gulf.

We've got a few Whooping Cranes down here by me right now at Father Hupp WPA. I'm waiting for them to leave so I can be the first in there to shoot some pheasants

I heard about Father Hupp being closed, looks it was opened back up 2 days ago. Better get out there.

http://www.omaha.com/outdoors/father-hup...a8dd595f17.html

Never seen a loon here.

I got into a discussion with a friend of mine last evening who does butchering. He mostly does deer and hogs. Does anyone think it wouldn't be a good idea to feed the cleanings (heart, liver and kidneys)to my blue catfish? I thought it may be a free source of food. Just looking for thoughts. I would have access to several hundred pounds of such to put into my 16 acre pond.

IMO I would try fishing with some of each first to make sure the BC will eat it. I have had great luck fishing with chicken liver for CC over the years but I have tried beef liver, chicken gizzard and other innards with little to no success.

Last fall I stocked some 8-12" blue cats thanks to TJ. Later this summer I plan to fyke net carp out of my lake and begin feeding them to my blue and channel cats. In the mean time I was wanting to get them on a feed program. My most reasonable options are Sportsman's Choice from Tractor Supply or Aquamax. The Sportsman's Choice variety is listed as 36% protein, but ingredients listed are......

**Grain products, Plant Protein Products, Processed Grain By-Products, Animal Protein Products, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Folic Acid, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin Kactivity), Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, L-Lysine, Ascorbic Acid, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Fish Oil**

Is this going to be a viable feed for young blue cats? Or should I go ahead and order Aquamax and spend the extra dollars? Note: I'm guessing most of the fish taking the feed will be channel cats.

Instead of feeding the Sportsman's Choice food, see if you can find some dedicated catfish food. That might be more cost effective for you.

I had considered that, but with blue cats in the mix I thought maybe a higher protein diet may be required. I do have access to the Sportsmans's Choice Floating Catfish food at 2/3 the price. Maybe young blue cats and their carnivorous nature at that age would accept that food readily.

You could cover all your bases and get one bag of each and see what they prefer to eat.....

All 3 would be what, around $100-$125 in feed total?

FWIW I fed my CC Sportsman's Choice Multi-species formula last summer. They loved it and I was very happy with the nice fat 2 to 3 pound CC we harvested last fall. I will be feeding it again this year. It's a 36% and has multiple pellet sizes in each bag. IIRC it was about 12 or 13 dollars a 25 pound bag at Farm & Fleet.

I guess my biggest concern is that the Sportsman's Choice formula is grain based (36% protein), whereas AM600 is fish meal based (41%). I wasn't sure if that made a difference with Blue Cats, particularly once they become larger and more piscivorous.

NEDOC,

Here is a link to an article that discusses your question.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-7345.2008.00200.x/abstract

It's only the abstract but the last line should be of interest. 32% protein is good enough for Blues so your 36% should be fine.

Excellent. Thanks Bill!

Catfish food should be easy to find. Gamefish Chow 32% is another alternative.

Here is some more info on CC from SRAC. Blues have slightly higher protein requirements as per Bill's cite.

Commercial feeds for food fish
generally contain 28% or 32% protein.
A 26% protein feed is also
available from some feed mills.
Research has shown that protein
levels as low as 24% can support
maximum growth if fish are fed as
much as they will eat. Low-protein
feeds cost less, but usually
result in more body fat and lower
processed yield. Research has
shown that there is a marginal difference
in the processed yields of
fish fed a 28% or 32% protein feed
(about 0.3 to 0.4 percentage unit
reduction in fish fed the 28% protein
diet), but the difference may
be significant to catfish processors.
The type of feed to choose
depends on whether fish prices
are based on live weight or on
processed yield. Although fish fed
higher protein feeds (35% to 40%)
have better processed yield and
lower body fat content, these
feeds usually are not economical.

Great info guys.

Corey will be feeding his BC until they hit 5-10# when he'll likely stop to encourage carp predation, correct?

That's probably a decision yet to be determined as I evaluate my carp population via fyke net. I'm not really sure once they hit 10# if the amount of feed I can afford would impact their feeding on carp. I'm guessing the fish food would just be dessert:) It'll probably be a bridge I cross at that time.

I just purchased a 27" x 39" mini fyke net from Christiansen's Nets. It is a smaller fyke net, with a 25' lead and I had them alter the normal 4" throat to a 6" throat. I wanted to get a feel for what it was like to operate a smaller net like this before I spend the money on a bigger one. Christiansen's customer service was absolutely great. They did seem apprehensive in believing the fyke net would catch many carp. But I'm sure I'll use the net for other endeavors as well, so I went ahead and purchased one anyway.

Here's a link to the net I purchased......

http://christiansennets.com/store/fishing-products/mini-fyke-net/

Here's a link to another study suggesting that fyke nets can be quite effective on capturing carp......

http://www.southwestnrm.org.au/sites/default/files/uploads/ihub/fishingforcarpcontrol.pdf

Recently I ordered a 27" x 39" mini fyke net from Christiansen Nets with a 25' lead line. Customer service was great in working with me and getting the net they felt was appropriate for what I am attempting to do.

So this last Saturday, April 2nd I drug the fyke net into the water. I baited it with a ziploc bag filled with fish food and the bag punctured 5-6 times with the tip of a nail. On Sunday a friend of mine and I pulled the net in. To my surprise we had about 40 fish in about 22 hours of the net being set. I was kind of surprised by this due to the water being so cold and fish activity being minimal. Anyway, I plan to journal my findings in this post instead of making new posts every time I pull the net. So here is what we pulled out.........

April 3, 2016
Removed:
6 CC all under 10"
3 CGC averaging 1.5 lb each
Released
2 BG 5-6"
2 GSF 3-4"
14 Crappie 8-10"
12 Crappie 2-3"

April 5, 2016
Removed:
1 CC 8"
1 BB 8"
2 CGC 12-16"
Released:
14 Crappie 8-10"
2 GSF 3-5"

April 6, 2016
Removed:
2 CGC 12-16"
1 CC 8"
Released:
7 Crappie 8-10"
2 GSF 3-5"

April 9, 2016
Removed:
3 CGC 12-16"
2 CC 8"
Released:
11 Crappie 8-10"
1 GSF 5"

April 15, 2016
Removed:
7 CC 8-10"
1 crappie 8-10"
Released:
12 crappie 8-10"
1 GSF 4"

April 17, 2016
Removed:
1 8-10" crappie
1 8" CC
2 10" fat bullhead
Released:
4 8-10" crappie

April 21, 2016
Removed:
2 CGC 12-14"

April 24, 2016
Removed:
2 CGC 12-14"
Released:
2 Crappie 8-10"

April 25, 2016 (no fish caught on April 26)
Removed: 1 Bullhead 8"
Released: nothing

It would be interesting to see how it performs without bait. I've never used bait in mine... I run the lead all the way to shore so they can't swim around the lead on the shore side.

I plan to compare with different kinds of bait, without bait, times of year, placement, etc. After one placement I was surprised how easy this was to use and how effective it was. I think it will be a great pond management tool for me, but seems it would be even more effective in a smaller pond. Particularly in small ponds with bluegill overabundance. In fact, I wonder if it could be used to help control crappie in a pond of less than 2 acres. It seems you could pull several hundred out every year without much time or effort.

If nothing else, its free food for my larger catfish.

The last part of April I didn't set the fyke net much as it was raining and I was fairly busy. A couple of notes, it does seem to help to move the net on occasion. After 2-3 settings in the same area I began struggling to catch fish. Secondly, there appears to be a significant increase in catch rate when the trap is baited. I tried throwing canned sweet corn around the net in hopes of attracting carp, but that didn't seem to make a significant difference. What has seemingly worked best for me is putting a handful of fish food in a zip loc bag that has nail holes punched in it to let some scent escape. All in all, I've enjoyed using the fyke net. I haven't caught as many fish as I had hoped for, but I think the work load of catching and cleaning more fish would be too much anyway. And possibly as the water warms and fish movement increases I will begin to capture more.

April total of fish removed: (36 unwanted fish culled and I have started culling a few crappie when I don't catch much of anything else just to feed my larger catfish)

CC - 18 (all under 10")
CGC - 14 (Average of 15")
BH - 4 (Average 10" and very healthy)
Crappie - 2 (9")
Total: 36 unwanted fish culled and I have started culling a few crappie when I don't catch much of anything else just to feed my larger catfish.


May 4, 2016
Removed:
CC - 3 (9")
CGC - 2 (14" and 18")
Released:
Crappie - 3

May 5, 2016
Removed:
Crappie - 3
Released:
GSF - 2 (5-6")

Took a break from trapping to set it in my small pond for small RES.

May 25, 2016 (baited with cans of corn punctured with metal punch)
Removed:
CGC - 2 (14")
Released:
Crappie - 1

Memorial Day Weekend:
Removed: 12 CC between 10-15" length



May totals:
Removed: 15 CC under 18"
4 CGC (disappointing)
3 crappie

Also caught a 22.5" channel cat and caught the first blue catfish that we stocked last fall. It measured 14.25". I've also included a picture of a redear from my small pond below that I thought had extraordinary color.

Wow just caught this - great work Corey! Never considered baiting a fyke net before...good science here. If you aren't using those fish for anything else you are culling, consider freezing them for me if it's convenient, I have a project I'm working on at the pond and it requires high volume of fillets!

TJ, I've been finding a home for them in the belly of my BC and larger CC, or so I hope. They very well could be ending up in the belly of a turtle.





































Here's a picture of a RES I caught in my small pond last night I meant to text you. They are taking very well to the Optimal.

SWEET! Good job! What a great RES absolutely stunning and WR looks super solid.

Updated my May totals with pictures 4 posts up. And so far I'm off to a MUCH better start in trapping in June.....

June 1, 2016:
Removed: 13 CGC (carp) 14-19"
Note: not sure what I did differently but that's certainly the most successful trapping I've had in some time. I did bait the trap with Aquamax Largemouth pellets and moved locations. But I had used a few pellets of that before without as much luck. I'll keep experimenting and see what I get for results.


June 2, 2016
Removed: 1 - CGC 17". Head scratcher as I thought I had this trapping figured out yesterday. Ugh...


June 3, 2016
Removed:
6 - CGC 15-19". Another successful trapping. Hope this keeps up!!
2 - CC 9 & 12"


June 5, 2016
Removed:
14 -CGC 12-19". Record setting catch and I had a scale with. The 14 carp weighed in at 22 lbs. Hoping to keep this up.


June 6, 2016
Removed:
3 - CGC
1 - CC 9"


June 7, 2016
Removed:
5 - CGC W/ 21" and 22" large fish

June 8, 2016
Removed:
1- CGC 16"
Released:
1-BG 7". This was a bit of a surprise

June 9, 2016
Removed:
3- CGC
1- CC 10"
1- Crappie 9"

June 12, 2016
Removed:
6 - CC 10-14" caught via jug lines
Released:
2 - CC 3.1 lbs and 5.2 lbs.

June 19, 2016
Removed:
2 - CGC 14"
7 - CC 14"
1 - Bullhead 10"
Released:
3 - Blue Cats 12-14" 😄


June 20, 2016
Rod n reel
Removed: 8 CC 8-11"
1 CGC 13"

June 26, 2016
Seine
Removed:
50 CGC 12-18"
68 crappie 8-11"
12 CC 8-12"
Released:
6 Blue Cats 16-20"

I think location is key. Keep moving the net after in an area for a few days. Once you find a hotspot, keep it there until it shows reduced catch rates.

New pond channel cat record. 5.2 lbs. Hopefully a short lived record.

A video of my catfish feeding. At the end I stomp my foot on the dock. Although it sounds like a shotgun going off.

It's probably time to remove a few of my channel cats!

I see that young man has mastered the "Fisherman's pose" of extending the arm towards the camera. Fish looks almost as big as him! Great job on the young angler man!....and the CC! 5 pounds is time to meet the hot grease! I have a few CC over due I need to get out.....

We had a nice month of fish removal in June despite not running the fyke net as much as I would've like to have. But made up for it by getting the seine in the water last Sunday (pictures below). The seine wasn't as productive as years past due to it getting twisted up on trees that had blown in. But still produced 50 carp, 68 crappie and a dozen small channel cats. But most importantly it allowed me to evaluate the growth of my blue cats, and it was shocking. We caught about a half dozen that were 16-20" and up to 4 lbs. And they were just stocked at 8-10" last fall. I'm very impressed. Thanks TJ for sourcing them for me.

My fish removal totals for June are: 97 Carp, 70 crappie and 37 small channel cats. All of these fish were cut up and used to feed the blue cats. I wish I would've gotten a better picture of the blue cats, but was in a hurry to get them back in the water.

Interestingly, my secchi disc reading was 13-14" at ice out. While my water generally runs at a horrid 3-4" of clarity. I'm assuming most of the clarification is due to less fish activity during the winter months, but I also can't help but wonder if the 350 blue cats had an impact on last years carp hatch. Or I've entertained the idea that feeding my channel cats so much created a class of channel cats that grew large enough to become piscovorous and helped eliminate a few carp. Looking forward to starting my trap net again to see if I had an impact in 1) the number of carp and 2) the size of carp. I'd assume if my carp have gotten larger, that is most likely an indicator that there are fewer for the ones left to compete with.

You can mark up the clarity improvement during ice cover to no wind mixing water/sediment and low inflows as well

Just a quick update on this for my own records. A couple days of fishing over Memorial weekend and I think I have a decent grasp on some trends in my pond. Over 2 days time, we caught 25 catfish. Of those 25 fish, 16 were blue cats. 13 of those blues were fall of 2016 stocking, and 3 were fall of 2015 stockers. The fall of 2015 stockers were 16.5", 18" and 19" in length and very thick. Of the 9 channel catfish we caught, 1 was 6 lbs, 5 were 4 lbs, and 3 were 1-1.5 lbs.

Some observations.... while I don't have any idea of the number of channel catfish in my pond, the fact that I only stocked 350 blues and 2/3 of the fish I caught were blues is very surprising to me. I'm not sure if I don't have thousands of channel cats as I suspected, or if the blue cats are just more aggressive right now. Probably a combination of the two, but this surprised me very much. Also, the size of channel catfish that I caught last year averaged at least a pound, if not a pound and a half less. So feeding seems to be paying off.

PS For those wanting to catch large catfish, using skipjack on jug lines seems to be very effective on my pond.

Pictures to come......

First time I have seen this thread. Very cool project!

So a few updates on this project.

1) I've gone away from the trap/fyke net for now as it was just too much work for the amount of fish I'd trap. I've gone back to using the seine and found a much better method of using it. By that, I've added a feeder toward the tailwaters of my pond. This attracts and concentrates the fish to that area, which makes it a much shorter pull, without as many snags to mess up the net as we pull. The first time we did this we seined over 400 fish. Great for evaluation and population adjustments. Amazingly, we caught nearly 200 of the 350 blue cats we had stocked. So its apparent they are drawn to the feeder.

2) In years past, I've gone thru about 1500 lbs of 32% protein catfish feed. That seems like a bunch, but apparently for a 15 acre pond of catfish that's not all that much, and its probably about as far as I wanna push my budget (wife) for now. And my poor relative weights (RW) reflected such. I haven't kept good tabs on RW, but on my channel cats they've certainly not been above 100. My blue cats seem to be quite a bit higher though. Which I am pleased with, yet don't quite understand. Maybe they are preying on the small crappie and carp better? Not sure. Anyway, in the last 2 weeks I've stumbled across an idea that I've began to implement. My cousins own a commercial trout farm about 4 miles down the road in which they have about 60-70lbs of cleanings (heads and spinal/belly flesh) leftover each week. I've had them freeze those cleanings and I cast them off my dock about 4-5 days per week. Not the best of chores, but its free and I'd hope a much higher protein food source. We will have access to these trout for 50 weeks of the year, which will come out to nearly 3000lbs of trout remains. They seem to take to it well as we catch fish rather quickly if we put a trout head on a hook. Not sure how it'll impact my fishery, but will eval as I go and any insight from this forum would be appreciated.

So...... long story short, with my goals of creating a trophy catfishery and minimizing the carp population, I'm hoping to reduce my number of small catfish and other undesirable fish thru seining, creating less food competition for the large fish. I'm also hoping to improve and increase the food intake for these large fish by continuing with catfish food and supplementing their diet (if you wanna call it that) by adding 3000lbs per year of trout cleanings.

Any suggestions, cautions or additions are appreciated. Thanks.

Great update! I don't have anything to add -- just wanted to say that I'm following this story and I'm betting that trout offal will grow you some monsters. How big are the blues now?