Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Phosphorous overload.?? Symptoms ....solutions?

First....although a reader for years I finally logged in this year for some specific help on another subject....I have always been impressed with the dedication, ingenuity of all the posts.

We have a small 1/4 acre natural pond in northeast Ohio that we began to "rehabilitate"
about 6 or 7 years ago....lots of organic muck etc etc....aeration was put in about 4 years ago and runs 24/7...about 3 years ago began monthly treatment with a Cleveland based bacteria have been pleased with what I saw (would I do that with a 2-3 acre pond? Costs would get out of control) ....recently checked muck levels....idea from here...and was surprised to find about a 2 foot reduction for areas less than 3-4 feet deep....

So what's the problem....? The last 2 or 3 years we have had many monsoon type rains and deeper snow pack than normal....we get runoff from a minor wetland that has multiple properties draining into it. Someone wants to have best lawn in state...leach fields that maybe old and failing etc. I think are all contributing to a phosphorous overload. A few tell tales....at ice out we now fave full fledged algae going in midseason form....bacteria not productive below about 50 degrees...even double dosing bacteria ( washed out soon afterward to overflow with another monsoon rain....

Our own leach field, which we try to keep in tip top shape, drains toward the pond ( in my unscientific mind might have been the culprit...so I had it surveyed a year ago)...

My thoughts at this point ....without monsoons ....it seems the little wetland can handle percolating out high phosphorous....that apparently is a thing of the past....it would seem at this point that phoslock might be a viable option....regardless of product....would this be a never ending battle after monsoons to capture new phosphorous overload?

Thoughts, suggestions more than welcome....hopefully the background helps.

Well I am in the same boat in away. Our pond like just about everyone's will loose quite a bit of water every day. To keep the pond level nice year round for my pond I fill the pond from a drainage ditch that about 400+ acres are draining into. When there is a huge rain event phosphates do not stay in the soil very well. I then pump them into our pond.

What I do is guess how much is in the water with a PH test. Just using hot tub strips from my hot tub. I treat the creek water before it enters our pond with hydrated lime. In the spring the creek gets 50#'s. This is helping clean up the water down stream as well.

I also add hydrated lime to the top of the water fall where the water flows over in to our pond. Behind the inlet so the lime is a slow dissolve every time the pump runs filling the pond.

I have let this go for one year and I will not do it again. With out the lime the pond mid summer is so thick with FA that you have it hanging off you when you get of from a swim.

We try our best to keep the pond water PH at 8 to 8.5 but it is hard to do when you have a massive rain event. I put in about 2# every three days of hydrated lime to bring the PH up if its low.

What is odd is I see the 1" minnows gravitate to the milky water with hydrated lime. Weather it is the cool water or the lime I do not know but they do love swimming face first into it.

Your phosphorus lock is really the same thing just mixed with sodium bicarbonate.

Cheers Don.

Great input !!! Did a number of things....ran upt to the local pool store bought some test strips ...appears our ph is 7.2-7.8 and alkalinity is over 120 but below 180.

Tried to read everything I could find on hydrated lime and phosphorous........great stuff especially here......so now more questions.....as I timidly jump in...first we are in a bit of a dry spell....no significant rain in a week or so...for us it would seem that applying the lime would best be done by boat....a) over diffuser boil? Or b) sprinkled along shorelines?

Plan on doing a little at a time and monitoring ph in the am. What is the alkalinity telling me? Good zone.?

Question for you..how do you avoid stunted perch? And an FYI..about 8 years ago..established a rule for fishing Lake Erie perch for the boat....and my son...keep no perch under 12 inches....avoided me cleaning fish in the dark!! Sure enough one afternoon.....we kept the legal limit 60...not one measured less than 12 inches!!
So much for a plan!!

I'd be extremely careful using the hydrated lime with fish present. The rapid pH change can shock and kill a lot of fish. IME, Hydrated Lime is not a long term binder of phosphorus...on average, it ties up P only a couple weeks at best.

Your alkalinity is great, by the numbers, but to know if it's awesome, you need to know if it's from calcium and magnesium, and not some other less critical salt.

I'd use caution on your YP rule. Since female YP grow larger than males, you may wind up with a large male population. Personally, I'd keep all edible size YP wanted.

Your aeration is likely more responsible for your reduction in muck...the best aerobic bacteria are already present in your pond.

A MUCH more cost effective use of the $$$ spent on bacteria, could go into Tilapia next spring. Tilapia will consume the algae, reproduce to feed your fish, and once the algae is scarce, the tilapia will reduce your muck considerably (for less than your bacteria too, I'd bet)

The muck reduction could be a large source of higher phosphorous levels since that nutrient is released as the organics decay.

Alum (aluminum sulfate) will bind phosphorous.


http://dnr.wi.gov/lakes/publications/documents/alum_brochure.pdf

Wow!! Great info....the link to wi. dnr was amazing....now going to try and source alum locally. The insight into phosphorous release from muck reduction.......who wudda thunk?

The ratios of alum to lime .....got it...now....what is the consistency of alum slurry...?
1/4 acre pond....garden sprayer or some other device that will work...doesn't have to be super efficient....just need to know what I have to go and find....

Thanks for all the insight and info....hopefully someone else who reads this will also benefit from your contributions

Read this thread about applying alum.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=124005&page=1

We have only had our perch in our pond for three years now. What I am learning is the clarity of the water and the amount of hiding places for the young perch is a big factor on keeping a balance of young yearling perch and pulling out 150 every year. When we take them anything over 10"s that gets caught on a hook gets pulled out. I am guessing we have about 5% of our pond hiding places for the young. Much less then the 15% recommended.

Looking to add 15-20 walleye as the fall approaches.

We can add 2-3# of hydrated lime every three days and not see the PH change when the pond is keeping up with evaporation. The next three days the pond will be running out the over flow with about 3"s of rain so far since Thursday of last week. Over flow will reduce lime levels fast.

Cheers Don.

Rainman, you said:
A MUCH more cost effective use of the $$$ spent on bacteria, could go into Tilapia next spring. Tilapia will consume the algae, reproduce to feed your fish, and once the algae is scarce, the tilapia will reduce your muck considerably (for less than your bacteria too, I'd bet)

The muck reduction could be a large source of higher phosphorous levels since that nutrient is released as the organics decay.

I think my tilapia ran out of FA to eat. Are they eating the dead leaves on the bottom of my pond or rooting in the muck? I'm struggling with cloudy water and the other variable that is different this year is the tilapia numbers are higher and the goldfish are bigger Curious if tilapia are able to eat in the muck some how?

Don, thanks for updAte on perch..similar problem with habitat structure...added various things but saw the best idea yet somewhe

Canyon, the Tilapia don't like to consume the detritus directly, they will swim up and down in the water to bring oxygenated water to push deeply into the packed muck layers by "flashing". This promotes aerobic bacteria, and depletes anoxic waters. The decaying leaves and other detritus decay rapidly, and the tilapia consume the bacteria as they "farm" it. While it is possible the tilapia could stir up sediments to cloud water, I would bet dollars to donuts it is caused by the goldfish, and not the tilapia.

There are many ponds that have lost several inches to a couple feet of muck from adding nothing more than tilapia, especially when no aeration is used.

Detritus is close in preferred foods to algae.

Wow, what a wealth of knowledge you are Rainman! I never knew all the benefits of Tilapia and I find out more and more each day. Who would have dreamt that they would or even COULD act as little mini aerators to move up and down in the water column, stir up the bottom by flashing, loosen up the leaves, harvest the nutrients and 'de-muck' your pond for you and all. They should be known as the 'little engines that could' of the pond biosphere.

I would never know that by observing them. In my pond they are lazy, they find the warmest sunniest spots and very slowly cruise around in small groups, the bigger ones tend to hang out in smaller groups, and the little ones in larger tight balls. They tend to move all at once in sync, sometimes going to the top to grab something then darting about 10 feet away and then just hanging out and floating some more. I don't know what they do down near the bottom!

Too bad they aren't legal in more states and too bad there isn't an easier way for us northern pond owners to remove them, overwinter them inside, and then reuse them again. I'm not sure I would have the skill to set up an indoor tank system that could stay clean and filtered enough to over winter. I'm searching for an aquaculture enthusiast or hydroponics guru who may be interested in saving my fish over the winter and putting them back in my pond in the spring.

They say you never stop learning! Thanks Rainman!