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rulgert Offline OP
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hey yahz..

my property is 275 feet above the water table, and i run a composting toilet and a rain catch potable water system...i am an archer and permaculturalist, so besides patterning water, i also need it for drought and fire protection..

i carved the pond basin, and mounded the retainer, with my Toro Dingo TX-427 WideTrack ( miro monster ).. little less than a 1/4 acre pond, ten feet deep, in very clay rich soil, and it has been nearly full several times but does not hold so well..

i did read here recently on ramming the core, something i wish i would have done, but didn't, having not known about this forum at the time i made my pond...

the retainer is huge, with a mid section profile of about 40 feet wide at the bottom, 10 feet wide at the top and 14 feet high...and so you can imagine how ever i elect to fix it i probably would have been easier if i would have done it right the first time..

any suggestions appreciated.


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my current plan of attack includes having gotten a box scraper, which i am adapting to be welded on to a Titan attachment plate for my Dingo..

i need the box scraper to run fire breaks anyway..

but i am scything and solarizing the basin, in prep for removing the root matter with the box scraper, and then getting some bentonite this fall.


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Welcome to Pond Boss rulgert.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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I had to look up what a Toro Dingo was.
Toro Dingo

Holy cow. If you did a quarter acre pond ten feet deep with that machine you must be one tough guy. Cant offer any advice on resolving your problem but hopefully others can.

Welcome to the forum.


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Originally Posted By: snrub
I had to look up what a Toro Dingo was.
Toro Dingo

Holy cow. If you did a quarter acre pond ten feet deep with that machine you must be one tough guy. Cant offer any advice on resolving your problem but hopefully others can.

Welcome to the forum.


Another "welcome to the forum."

I had to look it up your machine also. I recognized it when I saw a picture of it. They look like great machines. When I go into town, I see contractors using them for all kinds of stuff in subdivisions, from stump grinding and delivering mulch in tight areas, to drilling piling-holes for decks, to plowing/piling snow off the sidewalks in the winter.

I know they are pretty tough machines, but I'm not sure they will work with a box scraper to pull roots. My little 4WD diesel tractor weighs about 4000 lbs without rear attachments. It has a tough time pulling my 5-foot box scraper when it hits big roots. Sometimes I can put a "middle buster" on this tractor to take out these roots. Usually it takes my backhoe to pull them.

But, I've got more questions. What the heck is a retainer? I've been playing with springs, ponds, and lakes for well over 50 years. I've not heard of a "retainer" in this context before. I grew up, and still regularly visit relatives, in the excavating business in counties just north of you in MN/WI. It just isn't a term, local or not, that I'm familiar with.

I'm thinking that may be why you haven't gotten more answers.

I noticed that my senior partner is crime and ponds, Dave D., welcomed you, but didn't provide any answers. He is kind of quiet and slow-talking, but there isn't very much he doesn't know about ponds, trying to retain water, and heavy farm equipment. If Dave didn't provide answers, then, North-American-wide, there may only be Mike Otto or Bob Lusk to pipe in. They've literally "written the books" on these subjects and are regulars here on the site. Mike's latest book is "Just Add Water" which has a lot of insight about water retention. It is available here on our website.

You sound like a very interesting person who would fit in very well with the rest of us on this site. Please keep asking lots of questions. Photos of your dilemma would be extremely helpful.

I now live in the mountains of West Virginia. My wife and I are far from being "preppers" but we could go for a heck of a long time without any outside services.

I'd be more than willing to share what we've done to prepare for hurricanes and blizzards -- both of which hit us every few years.

Regards,
Ken

Last edited by catmandoo; 09/02/15 07:55 PM. Reason: grammar

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I believe retainer refers to the dam?

I'm no pond builder, but mounding the dirt for the dam, while admirable with that machine, isn't going to cut it unless you brought in another, heavier piece of equipment to compact as you progressed?

In my uneducated opinion you need a lot more weight (ground compaction) than the Dingo will ever be able to provide. As you've probably read, bentonite is usually tilled in and then compacted in lifts.

Can you post any photos of the pond and dam?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
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Ken, I have realized that I don't know diddly about far North water holes.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Ken, I have realized that I don't know diddly about far North water holes.


Dave, I'm pretty certain that red clay is red clay, especially up and down the I-35 corridor between upper Minnesota and Lower Texas. The Red River up north is the same color as the Red River down south. They just flow different directions.

You guys just get a little toastier in the summer, and not anywhere near as refreshingly cool in the winter. These days, it is real difficult to predict annual average rain fall up and down that corridor. It just all evens out.


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rulgert, welcome to the forum. I was just in De Soto a few weeks ago, small world. Two things that come to mind are coring the dam and compaction. I am assuming you didn't use a sheepsfoot to compact the clay in 6" lifts.

You may look at trying to dig up a little more and compacting a clay liner around the entire bowl. Works better if the dam has a core trench but your dam has a lot of dirt in it already. Not going to say it is the best solution but definitely worth a look. I would think if you can get a total of 2 feet of known good clay compacted around the entire pond, you will get pretty close to sealing off most leaks.

I would also recommend a bucket test with clay from a few different locations around the pond:
Bucket Test Link 1
Bucket Test Link 2
Bucket Test Link 3

TJ has also had some luck with SoilFloc, post will explain.



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Do you have any wet spots on the backside base of the dam? That would indicate leakage under the dam.

If you just piled excavation material up for the dam without removing the topsoil from the dam base area the water could be moving via that route. If you dig a hole with the Dingo behind the dam a few feet deep and it fills with water, it could indicate a leak. There would be solutions if this is the problem.

How deep is your topsoil? If it is very deep, water could leak out to the depth of the topsoil.

Just some ideas.


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Ken. Yep, dirt is dirt. However, there is a difference in freezing temps that we don't have to deal with.

Ice out? What's that?
Hard water. Same as above.
In what we call Winter, generally about 3 or 4 weeks, a BG won't even bite a chunk of night crawler.
Ice effect on docks? Not here.
Snow chains are certainly needed here but only for about 15 minutes per year.
What is a studded tire?
I don't recall ever seeing a snow shovel or ice skates.
You get rain and I get sand storms.
We measure evaporation rate by the minute.
When to start aeration to keep a hole opened? What for?
Stocking and nesting dates? Much different.
Bass/BG and other forage ratios? Way different.

I spent all of my life knowing what a perch was. Wrong again.

And then, we talk slower than we think. When talking to a Yankee(Youse guys?) I have to have my hearing aids adjusted so I can hear faster. Kinda like talking to my teenage Granddaughters who often sound like Auctioneers speaking a foreign language.

A recent experience and it's kinda embarrasing. During our recent once in a lifetime floods my roads washed out. Gravel and road base to replace them has gotten super expensive and all but unavailable with County roads having a priority. I have a LOT of rocks on my place so I'm just gathering them up and doing it myself. A couple of weeks ago I spent most of the day with my FEL bringing rocks of all sizes to the house. It was a balmy 102 and reasonably high humidity.

When I quit about 6:00 Charlene had made a pitcher of margaritas. We sat down at a picnic table in the shade because I know to not go indoors and cool off too quickly. I had 2 short ones with ice cubes. Really not much booze. When I got up to go inside I was walking sideways. My tissues had been screaming for moisture and they took what was available. By 7:30 I was in bed. Ten days later I still haven't completely recovered. It was the step before heat stroke called heat exhaustion. This is my 3rd one and I should have known better. The other 2 were many years ago. I did something dumb and will be paying for it for the next year.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 09/03/15 06:09 AM.

It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Dave, you get winter - I saw it first hand this February!! If you have to turn spigots on a little bit to keep them from freezing, or drain the bladder tank of the well to keep it from freezing, you have winter.

I was out spraying algae all day yesterday. I went thru about 80 ounces of water and didn't have to pee all day. It wasn't as hot as what you had, but 93 and high humidity is enough for me!


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rulgert Offline OP
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retainer=dam, check on the terminology correction..

the Dingo is totally animal, but yes, it weighs just short of two tons.....the two tricks you have to know are:

1) to learn to weld cast iron, if you don't already; and build up the outsides of the track guide tips, then grind the inside of the tips, reinstall, and maintain track assemblage as per usual.

2) don't get lazy and lock your knees back, or it will hurt you bad...keep your knees bent and think moto-cross; it more like moto-cross than your typical carny ride at the fair grounds..

i have a 4 foot box scrapper coming.

i did remove the topsoil prior to building up the dam, but i am certain at least half of the dam's foot lapped over the peripheral top soil....will check for water, think about sheepsfoot vs. bentonite, and take picktures..

thanks all,

rulg


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Gracious, I had no idea they were that heavy. With that weight it should be able to effectively use a box scraper.

I chuckled about the welder. For years, whenever I'm asked by a newbie about tractor implements, I tell them that the very most important one is a decent welder!


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Originally Posted By: rulgert
my property is 275 feet above the water table, and i run a composting toilet and a rain catch potable water system...i am an archer and permaculturalist, so besides patterning water, i also need it for drought and fire protection..

rulgert, as to your specific questions about your pond, other members of this forum obviously have a huge amount more pond experience than I do, myself being a newbie to pond construction.

However, I did run across this publication about managing ponds in Wisconsin, which might be of interest to you if you don't already have it: http://learningstore.uwex.edu/assets/pdfs/G3693.pdf

I'm not certain what you mean by 'patterning.' I've heard of 'keyline pattern' in the context of water storage, irrigation, and cultivation patterns. Would it be something like the placement and use of water storage in harmony with natural drainages, contours, etc.? Am I anywhere in the ballpark? Are you planning to use the water for flood irrigation? It would be interesting to see some photos of your pond and environs.

I've looked at the Toro Dingo line...some very cool machines. Being an incurable tool junkie, I could easily think of lots of jobs for one of them on our places in Maine. However, my wife is infinitely more practical than I am and reminded me that I already have enough 'big-boy toys.' Don't tell her, but she's probably right. By the way, did you mean to say that the TX427 Wide Track weighed two tons? I thought they were just a little over 2,000 pounds, plus implement weight. In any case, it's a very convenient size for a lot of applications. I'd love to have one for clearing surface material for subsequent archaeological digging, as well as re-filling excavations. Its size would be very maneuverable among the trees and ledge outcrops that we have to deal with.

My biggest sandbox toy is my 1987 Case 480E 4x4 Construction King Loader/Backhoe (similar to a 580E). The way it's equipped, it weighs somewhere around 12,000 pounds, and with its heated cab, it's nice to have for winter work in Maine. It would be my primary tool for building my envisioned pond, although my venerable 1953 Ford NAA tractor would also get a workout on the pond project, pulling a grading scraper and landscape rake for finish work. I'm still looking into soil composition, compacting, etc.


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Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Ken. Yep, dirt is dirt. However, there is a difference in freezing temps that we don't have to deal with.

True. From living in Maine (and from having resided in northern Minnesota and lived to tell about it) I can firmly state that we have a somewhat different perspective on our environment. I mean, my snowblower has more miles on it than my pickup truck, and when the snowblower gets stuck on the roof, I just get out the spare snowblower.


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Originally Posted By: Ancient One

I mean, my snowblower has more miles on it than my pickup truck, and when the snowblower gets stuck on the roof, I just get out the spare snowblower.


Now that's funny, no matter where you live.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: Ancient One
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Ken. Yep, dirt is dirt. However, there is a difference in freezing temps that we don't have to deal with.

True. From living in Maine (and from having resided in northern Minnesota and lived to tell about it) I can firmly state that we have a somewhat different perspective on our environment. I mean, my snowblower has more miles on it than my pickup truck, and when the snowblower gets stuck on the roof, I just get out the spare snowblower.


You are lucky to have been on the "nort shore" in Minnesota, rather than on the "sout shore" in Wisconsin, or even worse, on the eastern end of the lake, like between Ironwood MI/Hurley WI and the Copper Harbor area heading to Houghton/Hancock MI. We relied on nearby towns with really big snowcats and people who knew how to use witching rods just to find our little towns. cry grin




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Originally Posted By: catmandoo

You are lucky to have been on the "nort shore" in Minnesota, rather than on the "sout shore" in Wisconsin, or even worse, on the eastern end of the lake, like between Ironwood MI/Hurley WI and the Copper Harbor area heading to Houghton/Hancock MI. We relied on nearby towns with really big snowcats and people who knew how to use witching rods just to find our little towns. cry grin

Ahh, yes, the 'lake effect.' Wow, that's a LOT of snow! So, did they ever find your towns? I guess they must have, or you wouldn't be posting. grin

As I recall, we only got a moderate amount of snow when I was living in the nort' o' Minnesota, but the -40F temps made up for my disappointment. Here in coastal Maine, it's a bit warmer, but at least we get a goodly amount of snow. crazy


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i just looked it up to make sure, and i was off by quite a bit...the TX-427 WT is 2,075 pounds dry....is holds 12 gallons of fluid and i don't know if that includes the counterweights or the operator platform either.. i guess i will just see how it goes.

patterning game...water is not considered bait.

thanks for the WI pond PDF...i am keeping it on file, but the only fish i am probably going to keep in the pond are mosquito fish...i already have frogs.

it's been too dry to check for water on the other side of the dam.

i do brain work at home in winter,i don't have a snow blower or a blade for my 1/2 ton 4WD truck milage hot rodded out to 30 MPG + HWY, it just sits snowed in anyway because my snowshoes get better milage and are a lot less hassle for my 2 or 3 outings each winter

http://content.backcountry.com/images/items/900/CAS/CAS0710/GY.jpg

MSR EVO Tour

rulg


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Originally Posted By: rulgert
i do brain work at home in winter,i don't have a snow blower or a blade for my 1/2 ton 4WD truck milage hot rodded out to 30 MPG + HWY, it just sits snowed in anyway because my snowshoes get better milage and are a lot less hassle for my 2 or 3 outings each winter.
rulg

I wish my 3/4 ton 4x4 got anything close to 30 MPG. However, it's great at finding gas stations. What kind of rig do you have? Some of my projects, including the restoration work we're doing on our old (220+/- years) cape house in Alna, ME, require some heavy-duty wheeled equipment, and even the 3/4 ton isn't big enough sometimes. I'm retired, but my wife still works and has to put on some miles during the winter, which isn't always fun. We also have snowshoes and we've put a few miles on them.


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it's a 1993 nissan D-21, tennessee chassis, KA-24(2.4L 12 valve 4cyl.)..i like the overhead cam valvetrain 2 in, 1 ex per and crossflow...nice spacious engine bay, manual 5-speed, 2H,2L,4L transfer with manual lock outs.

i tore off the old rusted box, gas axed the stand offs, pie sliced and re-welded the frame twice in back of the axle so it ran strait out from there, ( lifting the rear leaf spring piviots and dropping the rear sus about 3" ), torsion bar front susp. adjusted to suit... welded up a subframe just in back of the cab, and made a diamond plate Aluminum flatbed..

skinniest tires i could put on the stock rims without throwing the speedo off, and don't carry a spare....scraped all the stump guards, got rid of the mud flaps and fender flares, and run a pre heater on the fuel rail..

it had 144k miles on it when i got it, and i have 167k on it now almost 7 years later....i run long lists and don't drive in summer much either..


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Originally Posted By: catmandoo
Originally Posted By: snrub
I had to look up what a Toro Dingo was.
Toro Dingo

Holy cow. If you did a quarter acre pond ten feet deep with that machine you must be one tough guy. Cant offer any advice on resolving your problem but hopefully others can.

Welcome to the forum.


Another "welcome to the forum."

I had to look it up your machine also. I recognized it when I saw a picture of it. They look like great machines. When I go into town, I see contractors using them for all kinds of stuff in subdivisions, from stump grinding and delivering mulch in tight areas, to drilling piling-holes for decks, to plowing/piling snow off the sidewalks in the winter.

I know they are pretty tough machines, but I'm not sure they will work with a box scraper to pull roots. My little 4WD diesel tractor weighs about 4000 lbs without rear attachments. It has a tough time pulling my 5-foot box scraper when it hits big roots. Sometimes I can put a "middle buster" on this tractor to take out these roots. Usually it takes my backhoe to pull them.

But, I've got more questions. What the heck is a retainer? I've been playing with springs, ponds, and lakes for well over 50 years. I've not heard of a "retainer" in this context before. I grew up, and still regularly visit relatives, in the excavating business in counties just north of you in MN/WI. It just isn't a term, local or not, that I'm familiar with.

I'm thinking that may be why you haven't gotten more answers.

I noticed that my senior partner is crime and ponds, Dave D., welcomed you, but didn't provide any answers. He is kind of quiet and slow-talking, but there isn't very much he doesn't know about ponds, trying to retain water, and heavy farm equipment. If Dave didn't provide answers, then, North-American-wide, there may only be Mike Otto or Bob Lusk to pipe in. They've literally "written the books" on these subjects and are regulars here on the site. Mike's latest book is "Just Add Water" which has a lot of insight about water retention. It is available here on our website.

You sound like a very interesting person who would fit in very well with the rest of us on this site. Please keep asking lots of questions. Photos of your dilemma would be extremely helpful.

I now live in the mountains of West Virginia. My wife and I are far from being "preppers" but we could go for a heck of a long time without any outside services.

I'd be more than willing to share what we've done to prepare for hurricanes and blizzards -- both of which hit us every few years.

Regards,
Ken


i have been thinking about this, and even though the TX-427 is only 2,100 lbs. it does have full traction weight and 27 HP, so like a 27 HP 4WD with full hydraulic drive, so i can ooze the power into the ground until the engine pulls down to torque peak around 2,700 rpm..if the tracks don't beak lose first, depending on the substrate, but that's rare.

as the pond basin goes it's just air and soil borne seed growth i am going to be removing..

but i was wondering if you could tell me your machines HP and if the trouble you encountered was machine power related or traction related, so i can kind of figure when the box scraper isn't going to be the tool for me, and when to be careful with the settings if i need it to be anyway.....thanks

Last edited by rulgert; 09/14/15 08:23 AM.

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the fullest my pond has ever been video...just post thaw this last spring...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MPmzZi86-4


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i may appear a bit odd, but thought to explain does seem odd to me, i am and old electronic musician, and i am just like that is all...

i just got into a new rig from NI in germany, after a decade plus lapse, and this is my teaser cut from my new upcoming album...

https://soundcloud.com/rulgert-ghostalker/my-whole-world-is-dead-on-valentines-day-rough-synth-mix

also an inventor, architect, and 49 year old childless population activist of nearly two decades...i have so many irons in the fire all the time i do screw up on occasion, but give me a break, it's my first pond with about 15 minutes of research and only one month of morning til night is all i have into the pond at this point...


rulgert the tree saucer bulder
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Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
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Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
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Reducing fish biomass
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Questions and Feedback on SMB
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2024 North Texas Optimal BG food Group Buy
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Freeze Danger? - Electric Diaphragm Pump
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Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

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