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#419116 - 07/21/15 04:41 PM dock stabilizers for high water?
nehunter Offline


Registered: 07/20/15
Posts: 86
Loc: NE
Have a new lake that the water level can change 10 to 20 feet in one week. How can a guy anchor a floating dock with out having 20 foot poles sticking out of the water? Has anyone just anchored to the bank without having anything out on the deep end? Would think wind and waves would tear dock off the bank.

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#419130 - 07/21/15 06:15 PM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
Flame Offline


Registered: 09/12/14
Posts: 1023
Loc: Deep East Texas
Don't know how far from shore your dock is but I am using a 28 ft pontoon boat for my floating dock. I have mobile home tie down auger style anchors in the ground on the shore and have 25 ft of galvanized pipe attached to the boat and augers. Also I have another pair of augers attached to the boat with steel cable. It is very solid.There are commercial sites that sell those type of kits. I made my own. I welded automotive tie rod ends onto each end of the pipe and bolted to the augers and angle iron brackets on the boat... Just my 2 cents worth.
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#419156 - 07/21/15 11:03 PM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: Flame]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24029
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Put one of these on each corner that is closest to the shore.

Use the corresponding inner corner to sandwich the board between.

Put one of these on the 4x6 to anchor the cable to.

Use the corresponding flat plate to sandwich the 4x6 between.

You need to use the plates and inner corner to prevent sucking the carriage bolts through the wood, and possibly splitting the wood.

Run a 3/8" dia cable to a 4"x6" that is sunk in the ground and concreted in. Use a long turnbuckle to take up the slack.

The parts are found at Dockbuilders:
https://www.dockbuilders.com/floating-dock-hardware2.htm

I'd run the cables at a 45į to the posts.


Edited by esshup (07/21/15 11:04 PM)
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#419169 - 07/22/15 07:15 AM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1296
Loc: NE Missouri
So far my 4' x 20' walkway is only anchored to the shore. It is subject to moving laterally back a forth, but not too much. It will also seem unstable at times. I've used 8' poles on the corners, to stabilize it, but didn't like those either. My hope is once I put in another section "T,ing" off the walkway, that will cure the stability issue. I may put in the poles again at a point on the walkway where they won't stick up too far. Once up above a few feet, they become perfect perches for the kingfisher to wait in ambush.
I was trying to avoid the cables, because we swim in the pond so often, and they are not fun to swim into.
With your water level fluctuations the poles aren't applicable, you may have to use the cables described above by esshup.
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#419170 - 07/22/15 07:34 AM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
Rangersedge Offline
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Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 836
Loc: Illinois
It seems to me that a sleeve could be your answer. Top pipe a at ached to dock fitting inside or outside the pipe solidly anchored in lake bottom. No idea how well that would work, in theory, I think it has potential! ;-)

You'd need to ensure the didn't stick / rust together, fairly snug fitting so didn't move a lot and bottom pipe very, very solidly anchored.
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#419171 - 07/22/15 08:26 AM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
RC51 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 4237
Loc: Arkansas
20 feet in one week??? Good luck with that. If it catches you at the wrong time your dock is gonna get messed up I don't what you do. 20 feet dude! If that's true there is no good solution that I know of.... You might get some stuff to work on a temp basis but I just don't see it. 10 feet might be possible but 20? I don't know.... Not trying to be negative here but I just don't see a good solution for that..... long term.

RC

Only thing I can think of is some sort of cable ratchet pulley system of some sort that you could ratchet up and down as you need it.....



Edited by RC51 (07/22/15 08:28 AM)
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#419178 - 07/22/15 09:00 AM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2429
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
My suggestion is an ATV winch on the corners of the pier. It's the only way I can see where it can be adjusted daily or weekly. Winch, cable and larger anchors on at least the outside corners of a pier that is attached to a walkway from the shore. Anchors could be anything from 5 gal buckets of cement to 55 gal drums of cement, depending on the size of the pier.

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#419180 - 07/22/15 09:14 AM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
Rangersedge Offline
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Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 836
Loc: Illinois
You have a horizontal issue too don't you? 10 feet vertical rise puts your dock 30 from the new shoreline if you have 3 to 1 slope.
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#419192 - 07/22/15 10:52 AM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5588
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Welcome to PBF Nehunter!

Ok, you have me curious. Why does your water level vary 10 to 20 feet per week?

Bill D.
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#419197 - 07/22/15 01:13 PM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5106
Loc: SE Kansas
Something I saw while traveling in Canada was a commercially built dock with wheels. It looked like it was made to put into and back out of the water perhaps seasonal. Maybe the place it was at did not allow permanent docks??? Don't know.

The wheels appeared to be galvanized with solid plastic on the rims looked to be made specifically for the application. I would think pure steel wheels would work also.

But it did look like a unique dock that could fit special applications. If a person had a relatively uniform slope on the bank where the dock was, a wheeled dock could be moved up and down the slope with changing water levels.

Just an "out of the box" thought that may or may not apply to your situation.

Edit: It also had adjustable pipes to change the level of the dock and some sort of hand crank with outriggers to go into the soil to stabilize it once in place.


Edited by snrub (07/22/15 01:14 PM)
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#419214 - 07/22/15 06:22 PM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: snrub]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24029
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
When I talked to Dockbuilders earlier this year, they said pipes aren't recommended in water over 6' deep because of the side to side sway that people walking on the dock will experience. They recommended cables to the corners for deeper water.

A single walkway 4' wide will be VERY tippy if you walk to one side.

Another solution would be to make the OP's pier in the shape of a "U", with the top of the "U" hinged at shore, and the bottom of the "U" out in the pond, and hinged at the part that is horizontal to the shore. 1/3 to 1/2 as wide as it is long.

No cables or pipes needed, but the center area will be a "dead zone". It would be suitable for fish cages tho....... wink grin
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#419242 - 07/23/15 06:57 AM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
RAH Offline
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Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4214
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
I am not sure what can be done for a pond that varies 10 to 20 feet in a single week. I cannot think of a reasonable way to connect a walkway to the floating dock unless it was very long.

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#419317 - 07/23/15 02:40 PM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
nehunter Offline


Registered: 07/20/15
Posts: 86
Loc: NE
Ok I have a NRD watershed that is made for flood control. It does not change every week but maybe 2 or 3 times in the spring. It takes 7 to 9 days to get back to permanent pool. So what ever I make needs to be able to take that up and down change. I will not be able to use the dock until the water level goes back down. But I do not want the dock to float over backwards and then be stuck up in the air. I have built what I call, a fishing pier ( non floating walkway )45 feet out into the water, but it is 30 inches out of the water, I need something I can get in and out of a boat so I want to put the floating dock onto the side of this pier. 6 foot by 12 foot floating dock with 4 foot by 20 foot walkway shaped like a T. I have built plenty of structures and know enough that it is better to ask someone that has built something like this than to have to do this project twice!!

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#422212 - 08/25/15 10:57 PM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
Ancient One Offline


Registered: 08/24/15
Posts: 37
Loc: Maine, USA
Originally Posted By: nehunter
Ok I have a NRD watershed that is made for flood control. It does not change every week but maybe 2 or 3 times in the spring. It takes 7 to 9 days to get back to permanent pool. So what ever I make needs to be able to take that up and down change. I will not be able to use the dock until the water level goes back down. But I do not want the dock to float over backwards and then be stuck up in the air. I have built what I call, a fishing pier ( non floating walkway )45 feet out into the water, but it is 30 inches out of the water, I need something I can get in and out of a boat so I want to put the floating dock onto the side of this pier. 6 foot by 12 foot floating dock with 4 foot by 20 foot walkway shaped like a T. I have built plenty of structures and know enough that it is better to ask someone that has built something like this than to have to do this project twice!!

How is your dock project coming along?

Here in Maine, we have significant tidal ranges (e.g., maybe around 25 feet at Eastport), and a number of different strategies have been employed to deal with those changing water levels. Iíve seen an incredible variety of pier and dock types here, and Iíve built a couple of them myself. Perhaps I could chime in with a few suggestions. But first, Iíd like to understand your situation a bit better. I have a few questions:

How high is the water in the lake when your non-floating fishing pier is 30 inches above the water? Is that the Ďpermanent poolí level you mentioned? If so, what happens to the pier when the water is at its maximum height? Is it submerged? Or do you remove the pier?

When the water levels are changing, does the influx or outflow cause any appreciable current in the water?

Are you planning to install any structures on the dock that might increase its exposed area to the wind, such as a roof or canopy?

How smooth is the bank as it slopes down into the water? What is the composition of the bank (soil, ledge, etc.)?

Do you still plan on keeping the existing fishing pier and connecting a walkway/gangway and dock to it, or would you like to start from scratch and build a totally new dock system?

By the way, the rolling dock/pier idea from esshup is interesting. Float drums are available with built-in wheels, or, wheels can be added to the pier/walkway/dock section frames. That would keep the overall length pretty manageable if you didnít mind moving the dock toward the water as the level goes down and re-anchoring the shore end of the pier.

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#422571 - 08/29/15 09:54 AM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
nehunter Offline


Registered: 07/20/15
Posts: 86
Loc: NE
permanent pool dock is at 30 inches out off water. bank is steep and just black dirt no rock. Dock I have in will stay in the water and will be submerged for the 7 to 10 days it is under water. Not much of a current but 6 to 10 inch wave action. Would like to add to the current dock but there is plenty of room to make a new dock. When water is up there would be no boats on the water, to hard and muddy to get close enough to unload a boat. I would only want a hand rail on the walkway to the floating dock. Rolling dock would not work for me. I would have to pull it out every time they call for a heavy rain. In the spring that's every 5 to 7 days and we only get a 1/3 of them. Most of the time the lake rises 5 to 7 feet only, but this last spring we had some large rains where it was 15 to 20 feet over main pool. So what ever I do it would have to be able to take that movement.

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#422602 - 08/29/15 11:40 PM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
Ancient One Offline


Registered: 08/24/15
Posts: 37
Loc: Maine, USA
Originally Posted By: nehunter
permanent pool dock is at 30 inches out off water. bank is steep and just black dirt no rock. Dock I have in will stay in the water and will be submerged for the 7 to 10 days it is under water. Not much of a current but 6 to 10 inch wave action. Would like to add to the current dock but there is plenty of room to make a new dock. When water is up there would be no boats on the water, to hard and muddy to get close enough to unload a boat. I would only want a hand rail on the walkway to the floating dock. Rolling dock would not work for me. I would have to pull it out every time they call for a heavy rain. In the spring that's every 5 to 7 days and we only get a 1/3 of them. Most of the time the lake rises 5 to 7 feet only, but this last spring we had some large rains where it was 15 to 20 feet over main pool. So what ever I do it would have to be able to take that movement.

The fact that your existing dock/pier is submerged at high water could present some design challenges/difficulties. From what I gather from your verbal description I'm guessing it might be easier to build something from scratch to handle such a large water level range.

My first thought would be to examine some docks that are already in use in areas where there is a comparable water level fluctuation. As mentioned, the Eastport or Lubec areas of Maine have a tidal range that can be up around 25 feet or so. I think you'll find that a variety of approaches have been used successfully there. A bit of searching on the Internet should yield some results.

I'd also recommend contacting an experienced dock builder in an area where they have to deal on a regular basis with large water level changes. They should know from experience what issues need to be addressed and what the pitfalls might be. I would think they could suggest a few different options. It's also possible that they could provide the appropriate hardware for your dock project if you plan to build it yourself.

There are a lot of different dock anchoring systems to consider...shore-to-dock cable anchoring systems, stiff-arm systems (which I like), connected floating dock sections, pilings, etc. There is no one answer as to what could work. Other possible factors in the equation are things like how you want it to look, what your budget is, how much of the work you want to do yourself, whether it will be left in year around or removed seasonally, type of usage, boat size/type, other activities on the dock, site topography, bank composition and slope, etc.

I've built a couple of docks in tidal areas, including one permanent wharf and one seasonal floating dock, but not being familiar with all of your requirements and not having seen your site, I couldn't say for sure if they would work well for you or not. Do you have any photos of the site and the existing dock/pier?

In the meantime, I'll see if I can reactivate a few of my old gray cells and come up with an idea or two.
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Archaeologists learn by trowel and error.

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#422633 - 08/30/15 02:50 PM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
Tbar Offline


Registered: 01/10/15
Posts: 663
Loc: Texas


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#422663 - 08/31/15 10:50 AM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
nehunter Offline


Registered: 07/20/15
Posts: 86
Loc: NE
Thanks for the picture. That is what I was planning on doing but I would put a walkway in the center of the two pipes. The cross bracing is something I did not think of. Can the pipes and walkway be 20 foot long and still be stable in wave action? I would put more floats on the main dock to support the walkway.
I would love to put some pictures up just don't know how yet.

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#422672 - 08/31/15 01:40 PM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
Tbar Offline


Registered: 01/10/15
Posts: 663
Loc: Texas
I am imagining 3 struts, one each near the sides of the dock with a third off center and close to one of the one of the side struts so you can incorporate your walk way between them. This type construction would only be possible if your shore anchoring points are at or above the high water level. It will probably require struts much longer than 20' so that at low water level the walk way won't be to steep to negotiate.

A possible alternative is to place the shore anchoring points at the mean water level so the struts could be 20' long and having the walkway floating independently of the struts. This way most of the walkway would floating and at the same level with the dock. At low water parts of the dock would rest on the shore.

You could reduce stress on the assembly by arranging flotation blocks in line with the prevailing winds so wave action doesn't have as much surface area to push against.

These are just my ramblings. I am sure more experience dock builders will be along shortly with better info.
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#422675 - 08/31/15 02:00 PM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4214
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
If you install stabilizer cables, be sure they are installed in the same geometric plane as the rigid gangway; that is, be sure that they are anchored to the floating dock at the same elevation that the gangway is hinged to the floating dock, and on the shore (or fixed dock) at the same elevation as the gangway is hinged to the shore (or fixed dock). This is necessary to keep the cables tight as the water level fluctuates. I ran the cables (actually chains containing turnbuckles), in an "X" pattern, under my gangway from the corners of my fixed dock to the corners of my floating dock.

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#422679 - 08/31/15 02:53 PM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
sprkplug Offline
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Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6945
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
When I built our dock I used the walkway as the stabilizer also. I attached a 1" black iron pipe to the inside of the uprights on the walkway, and fabricated "U" shaped brackets that attach to the side of the dock. The pipe acts as a hinge, and the walkway just drops down into the U-brackets, preventing side-to-side movement but allowing the dock to rise and fall with the water level. The shore end of the walkway is also pipe run through the uprights, free enough to pivot, with a couple 90 degree elbows and shorter pieces of pipe arranged vertically to anchor the whole thing.

It never moves side-to-side, accommodates fluctuating water levels, and requires no tools to install or disassemble. Just lift the walkway out of the brackets, one end at a time. Under normal operation gravity keeps it in place, even when rowdy teenagers are leaping off the dock.

But, I don't have to deal with fluctuations on the order described in this thread, either.
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If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
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#422714 - 09/01/15 01:48 AM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: sprkplug]
Ancient One Offline


Registered: 08/24/15
Posts: 37
Loc: Maine, USA
nehunter, I'm not a professional dock designer, and I really don't know what dock design would work for your specific situation. I would still strongly recommend consulting a professional dock designer/engineer to determine the best approach.

However, I included a bit of information about my floating dock, just in case it might give you a few ideas to think about.

This is a 'stiff-arm' floating dock that I built to handle about a ten-foot change in water level, although it generally only sees about a six-foot tidal range. This is located in a tidal zone, but it's in fresh water, since the salt water from the Atlantic doesn't make it this far inland. Okay, it's not on a pond (unless you consider the Atlantic to be a very large 'pond'), but I thought it might be of some interest here.

I ordered the aluminum gangway from a company in Maine, but otherwise I constructed most of the components myself.

It has a pair of stiff-arms (or 'struts') that are almost 29' long and a 30' aluminum gangway that is hinged at the shore end but has rollers at the dock end that allow it to roll back and forth on top of the dock. The stiff arms are cross-braced with hefty wire rope (steel cable) in an 'X' pattern in the plane of the stiff arms. The anchor posts on the bank are removable, since the entire dock has to be pulled out each year before winter or else the river ice would destroy it. The bank is solid bedrock, which makes for a firm anchor system. I fabricated the brackets on the top of the anchor posts on the bank to match the attachment brackets on the floating dock corners. The side of the dock where the stiff arms connect has extra float drums under it to make up for the extra weight of the stiff arms and gangway and keep the dock level. The floating dock itself is fairly small (only 6' x 20'), but of very heavy construction, and the extra mass and low freeboard add to its stability in certain respects. Keep in mind that the greater the change in water level, the longer the gangway and stiff arms would have to be. There are a lot of other design and construction details that I could add, but they might be better addressed in a separate thread. Suffice it to say that I came up with a few little details that I haven't personally seen on other docks, and so far, it's working very well. Again, this system might not necessarily work for your application, but I hope the information is useful somehow.

NOTE: The small vertical pipes on my floating dock do NOT extend down to the river bottom. They are not pilings. Their only purpose is for mounting a ring buoy and a future barbecue on the dock.

Stiff-arm dock:


Wire rope (steel cable) cross-bracing:
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Archaeologists learn by trowel and error.

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#422722 - 09/01/15 10:49 AM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4214
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Pretty excellent for a non-professional!

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#422730 - 09/01/15 12:15 PM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: nehunter]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13538
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
I will probably start on a blue barrel dock when the weather cools down. But, after seeing that one, I won't be taking and showing any pictures.
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#422740 - 09/01/15 01:43 PM Re: dock stabilizers for high water? [Re: Dave Davidson1]
Ancient One Offline


Registered: 08/24/15
Posts: 37
Loc: Maine, USA
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
I will probably start on a blue barrel dock when the weather cools down. But, after seeing that one, I won't be taking and showing any pictures.

Thanks to you and RAH for the kudos. As to blue barrels, there's nothing wrong with using those. Closed-head plastic drums/barrels can make excellent float drums. In fact, I might have used them myself if we didn't have beavers in the river nearby. I was a bit paranoid that a beaver or muskrat might want to sample a barrel or two to see if they were edible, and if so, a foam-filled rectangular float drum would at least stay afloat. However, I haven't yet seen any critters line up at the lunch counter under the dock, so my fears might be exaggerated. When I pull out the dock in late fall, I'll check for tooth marks.
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Archaeologists learn by trowel and error.

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