Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Who will own our ponds if the EPA gets its way?

FINnFUR, some people don't care who makes the laws. They don't even care if it's legal for an agency to make a law. All some people care about is that a law is made. When we do this, we have NO law. If you get to break the law by making the law then there is no law.

By the way sparky, I do and have had people watch over my shoulder when I work on firearms. I find it quite enjoyable.

Watching is fine. But do they advise you on how to bore the chamber, or enlighten you on a better way to add rifling to the barrel? Big difference.

People have not done this only because if they already knew how to do that then I wouldn't be working on their rifle. I have no idea what in the heck this has to do with a rogue bureaucracy that savages that public.

I'll lay it out. When I brought up the idea of customers watching you back in post #421850, I was using that as an example to demonstrate "who's really doing this work anyway?"

By using an example you are familiar with, I was casting you in the role of the contractor, (the trucking company), and your customer, as a customer, (the EPA).

The customer came to you, the contractor, to have a rifle built.
The customer (EPA) came to the contractor, (the trucking firm), to have water hauled.

Your customer stands over your shoulder, advising you (contractor) as to the best way to build his rifle.....like you state, that's pointless as it's your job as contractor to build that rifle, and if your customer could build it him/herself they wouldn't need to contract with you in the first place.

The EPA (customer) enlists the services of the contractor (the trucking firm), because they are unable or unwilling to haul their own water.

So, are you ok with your customer standing over your shoulder, picking up your tools, asking you to explain every detail, offering advice on how you should be doing the job, or do you politely suggest that you are aware of what you're doing, and could they please let you work?

So then, should the EPA (customer) do the same to their contractor, (trucking firm?)Micromanaging every step along the way? Or do they proceed under the assumption that they, like you, know what they are doing and let them get to it without standing over their shoulder?

Then when the rifle doesn't live up to expectations, or the water is contaminated, whose fault is it? You and a few others, are telling me it's the customer's (the EPA), for not being more active in the process, and getting involved at every step. Do you want your customers being that involved while you're building their rifle?

I think the EPA certainly shares in the blame here. SHARES....from the sound of things, the trucking company also has some explaining to do. But why does the media source quoted in this thread fail to make that connection? In my opinion, that's because they, like many, spend a great deal of time looking for something to be wrong, and twist and manipulate, and contort the "facts" in whatever manner best suits their ideals. I don't align myself with any one faction, be it political, economic, religious, whatever. There are good and bad elements to ALL of them. Failing to recognize this, is why I think so many, get so fired up over so little.

sprkplug, what you don't get and you never will is that the damn indians are the customer. The indians, in this case, are the plaintiffs and the customer. You know how our noble government employees like to shroud themselves with the word "servant" to make themselves so noble, don't you? Well the epa was supposed to be "serving" the indians. This makes the Indians the customer AND because the Indians were also damaged (twice) they will most probably me plaintiffs. The epa is the customer of the trucking company, so what? The epa is accountable to make sure that they use quality subs to get the job done. The problem is that there is most probably not a quality human being in the entire epa to make this call.

The epa doesn't have to pick up the tools of the trucking company to make sure that job is done right. What most of us responsible people do is CHECK stuff! Before I ship a rifle I test fire it. Before I accept sub'd parts I check them. Before a building contractor has a sub do a job he checks references and then still checks the work. These are things that people with profit motives do in the real world. Of course you would most probably be one of the brighter people in the world if you responded to profit. If you're stupid, you just go get employed by the feds.

Well, I'm in agreement. I'm not sure what a rogue bureaucracy that savages the public has to do with a thread that discusses a private trucking company delivering contaminated water in dirty tanks that they, the private company, may have sourced without government intervention.

It is confusing.

I'm sorry Tim, I didn't mean to upset you. I never considered any of this personal, I'm sorry that you don't feel the same. It's not worth hard feelings on anyone's part.

Oh, one more thing sprkplg, get back to us all on who at the epa gets fired/terminated for causing this pollution to be set free in this river. Then let us know who at the epa gets canned for not inspecting the water delivered to the Indians. Nobody will! Notta, no one. No accountability will take place. Someone might get a transfer though.

Us common folks, with brains, don't like losing money, failing, looking bad to customers. We like to win, have happy customers, and don't except our subs or employees to make multi million dollar mistakes time and time again.

Seems like there is no problem with Tim fixing/making rifles-
The problem is EPA and most government agencies can't pick good contractors- aleast they have failed on hauling water , retaining toxic waste , making websites for Obama care and the list goes on and on. Too much elbow rubbing .
But don't fret when Hillary gets in she will explain it all. "Bush did it"

sprkplug, you'll have to look at the lawsuit the Navajo put on the epa to understand it. We get to pay that lawsuit if it is paid. The epa will have to sue the trucking company for their ineptness but that doesn't forgive the morons of the epa for not inspecting the work.

The federal government is good at one thing, war. They need to stay out of the rest.

I'm not at all upset, I am still saddened that you have no regard for the US Constitution. If I'm upset, it would be at my government for having gone so astray.

The EPA plays a vital role. If individual states were allowed to set their own environmental standards, it would be a race to the bottom. Job poaching governors and state legislators would ease environmental regulations (such as they currently offer tax credits and deferments) in effort to allure industries to their respective states. The Great Lakes and the entire Gulf Coast would be a cesspool, and states like Colorado would have EVEN MORE toxic waste pits left behind for the taxpayers to clean up, after the mining companies have extracted the profits.

Creating the EPA is undoubtedly Richard Nixon's greatest achievement. Is the EPA perfect? Certainly not, but that doesn't mean that the baby should be thrown out with the toxic bathwater.

Well if your right the EPA of Nixon is not the EPA of today - this one answers to no one .
And makes their own laws, fines and penalties. They are the judge and jury.

And I don't think any state wants to turn their place into a cesspool . I don't know of any that don't have a eviromental law enforcement section and have passed laws to prevent the tragedies you mention from recurring

I agree 100% gully washer. And if there were no EPA, what would we do with interstate river systems? If it were left up to the individual states, there's no way they could agree on common standards, pollution wise. The folks downstream would always be aggravated with the states upstream, claiming their standards were too lax, and they were sending pollution downstream for another state to have to deal with.

Having static water confined within a state's borders is one thing. But then again, what about the underground aquifers? I'm not aware of any that respect state borders.

We NEED a common, federal protection and standard for this stuff. What we have isn't perfect by a long shot, but it's a far cry better than nothing at all.

I find this semi-humorous. The EPA or any government agency doesn't, with a few exceptions, get to pick their contractor. EVERYTHING is lowest bidder, from parts to construction. Exception examples, before someone else throws it out there, include a $400 hammer in the 1980's and the NASA shitter for a whopping $2000 . When one consistently awards lowest bidder, s**t happens, literally.

Having worked with a number of government contractors, as one of the people, it is never as straight forward as trusting a contractor. You get what you pay for which means you have to watch like a hawk or something gets jacked. Sometimes things get missed, sometimes the gov't agency is lazy, sometimes they are understaffed, and sometimes there are mistakes made. Without understanding the entire story I would be cautious to blame one entity entirely. Not saying the EPA is not at fault, they are but to what degree. The contractor is mostly definitely at fault.

On numerous occasions we have knowingly awarded contracts to companies that are going to cost more in the long run, do crappy jobs, or try to employ illegal immigrants (one of my favorites). We have no choice, lowest bidder gets the job, it sucks. The only thing you can do is document where they jack up and hope that it is enough to remove them from future contracts.

Side note: When you are POTUS sponsoring healthcare you can pick whichever contractor you wish, nobody is going to tell you no.

I don't know about the $400 hammer, but if I were in a low to zero gravity environment and needed to use the toilet, 2000 bucks would be ok with me if the darn thing worked to my satisfaction. That does NOT sound like the kind of place I would like to experience faulty plumbing!!

No sprk, my understanding is zero gravity toilets are in the millions of dollars. Still worth the money especially if you are an astronaut!!! If there are any Big Bang Theory watchers, Howard's zero gravity toilet that shoots meatloaf, funny stuff!

I thought that seemed kinda' cheap for a cosmic crapper.

I'll beat the drum louder, there are NO enumerated powers in Article 1 Section 8 for an epa, a department of education, fda, batfe, or most any of the other alphabet soup agencies. Now, some of these things sound like really neat ideas BUT, if they're so darn nice, how come the tyrants that wanted them couldn't amend the Constitution to get them? The law was broken to make laws. If you do this, the law means nothing.

There's a reason Japanese American's were put in concentration camps during WWII, it's because when things are convenient, our federal government breaks the law. Those who want things done quickly turn a blind eye and crap on their neighbor when the government does it. Just remember, when the feds come for you, some of us might just cheer them.

Any coward can cry out when their ox is being gored. It takes a man of courage to fight for their neighbors ox.

Seriously, nixen? You talk up a crook, a circumventor of the Constitution, a thing that had to resign or be impeached, I won't even get into its trespass on those who did drugs or its dabbling in the gold standard and bastardization of the Republican Party.

Who says the great lakes would be a cess pool? I never got the memo. Lake Michigan looked great in 1970 and it looks almost as good today. Lake Erie has probably benefited from the epa but had more help from the zebra mussel.

Bottom line, I really don't care if these progressive government units made everyone rich by implementing them. If the Constitution is broken to do it, it is simply against the law. Many of us are tired of having our freedoms taken away so that others can have perceived security.

If you are employed by the federal government, let me help you. You can use bidders besides the lowest bidder by using your Federal Acquisition Regulations. I won't get into all the rules of FAR but one very clear rule is that the bidder " MUST be determined to be fully responsive to the needs of the government." Seeing as the feds have bastardized the rest of the law, it should be very easy for even the simplest of government employees to make this rule mean whatever you want.

I am not implying that you are employed as a federal employee, I would never slander anyone that badly. I just wasn't sure if you are a federal employee because your post seemed to be couched in two different directions.

I looked it up...19 million bucks for a zero gravity toilet. How much for a bidet and new countertops?

This thread has become very nasty and political. It violates many of our forum rules. At this point, it has little to do with private waters management.

I ask that several of you please clean up your very negative comments, that have nothing to do with pond management issues.

We do not wish to lock or erase any threads, but ...

Catmandoo
(Ken Grymala)
Moderator

It is very unfortunate that an agency that is supposed to be aligned with the environmental protection that most members of this forum fully support, elicits such vitriol in our group. That seems to be a symptom of how this branch of the EPA has behaved, or at least is perceived. As a land owner, pond enthusiast, and passionate wildlife habitat restorer, I share a fear of the new rules. I think that this subject is relevant to the forum, so let's keep it civil, please.

Great points Catmandoo. I'll go with Thomas Paine who said "[Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer."
-- Thomas Paine

So, to our federal employees, even the best of you. You all are necessarily evil.

Stupid may be harsh. Is evil stupid or brilliant?

It is frightening that the speak of our founding fathers is looked upon now as offensive by the ninnys in our federal government and progressives. When we start losing our ponds, I guess some might get it.


"I consider the foundation of the [Federal] Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people." [10th Amendment] To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specifically drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition."
-- Thomas Jefferson, "Opinion on the Constitutionality of a National Bank" [February 15, 1791]

While we may be politically aligned, lets keep the connection to ponds and habitat and off of politics on this site as the moderators have requested. Please!