Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Priority and issue leak worse than I thought & DW

I finally got back up to the pond on Saturday, after two weeks away. The water level had dropped 6 3/4". I had placed a 5 gal bucket, full of water, on the dam, to compare evaporation rates. (Thanks to Rainman suggestion.) the bucket had dropped 2". The weather site says we've had .87" of rain in the last two weeks.
Down behind the dam I see two trickles of water. One coming out next to the drainpipe, and one in the original ditch/wash bottom at the very base back of the dam. This pic shows it, but it's hard to see. On the left side of the pipe..



How concerned should I be? I don't have a contractor I can go back to, just me. Any chance these will "self seal"? If not what solutions can you guys recommend? Each is a small trickle of water. If I look close enough, I can see movement or flow.
I've also got what I'm pretty sure is duck weed. I pulled a couple and took this pic.


Right now it's pretty hard to find, but it's showing up almost all the way around the one acre pond. How serious can it get? Should I try to kill it now, before it actually gets started, if so, what's the best way.

Also noticed a brown algae across the top of the water. Fortunately a south wind came up and moved it all down by the dam, so I could still swim.
Any suggestions? FYI, I still have at least 2' visibility in the brownish, greenish water.



And last but not least. I should not have bought the AquaPro feeder. It had not been running at all for the two weeks I was gone. It looks like something is wrong with the new and supposedly improved timer. I'll find out more today.

Looks like I'm switching modes from the building mode, to the ownership mode. The leaks have kept me up most of the night though..

Jeff

That leak around the pipe concerns me. Water moving through the dam by any means other than a pipe is troubling in my opinion. Are those rocks visible in the photo throughout the dam itself, core and all?

That does look like duckweed to me. If so, it most certainly can cover the entire pond surface, given time.

One neighbor said that if there is no soil washing out of the leak, then no worries apart from loosing water. It likely wont self seal though, perhaps lessen over time. You could try those polymer sealant products.

Dont bother with duckweed control with chemicals, it will be a constant battle. It is there because there are excess nutrients in your water. Plant some desirable vegetation to absorb the excess and add some fish that eat the stuff to keep it at bay. Cut back on the feeding.

I have Koi though there may be some better choices. I tried putting some DW in while feeding my perch, and the Koi ignored it until the fish food was gone. Then it was down the hatch! (I have an ample supply in a garden pond in need of work)

Good luck!

If you want to get control of the DW, you might try Clipper for spot treatment, or Sonar if you're willing to go all in. Be aware that Sonar will likely do a number on other, possibly more benign plants as well. And, something, most likely FA, will probably move in once the DW is gone.

Your drain pipe is not corrugated, that give water a straight shot to the back of the dam. Also what size overflow pipe is that?

The pipe is a 12" sewer pipe. Fairly expensive. There are two seep collars on it, and the collars were properly put in place with sealant, then a radiator type clamp around the base of the collar. The water must be tracking around the collars. We packed clay very tightly around both collars with a sledge.

There is rock throughout the dam. I tried to follow the dozers an throw as much rock as I could to the back of the dam, but there was too much. It does show up more on the back though, because I threw so many back there.
I almost pulled the plug during construction due to all the rock. One of the three dozer operators said if it was his pond, he would stop construction due to the rock. I made the decision to push forward. The rock played havoc with the sheeps head roller. It continually clogged up the roller,and the rocks had to be pried out. They did try to have cleaner clay in the core. There is certainly no dirt or clay coming out in the seep.

Does water depth make any difference to duck weed? I've got fairly steep banks for most of the pond, not much shallow areas. I also haven't planted anything else that would be killed off by any spraying. All the fescue and weeds that had grown up on the banks as it filled, died off after being submerged. As a matter of fact there is a dead zone where the water level has dropped. The old fescue is pretty much non existent any more.

Here's the heaviest concentration of duck weed.. Still not much, I'd like to stop it before it takes off.



I'm not feeding any more, as the feeder isn't working, and hasn't for two weeks. I did toss some feed by hand early yesterday morning and the YP hit it pretty well, along with about a million FHM.

Let the algae run it's course?

Thanks
Jeff

Jeff, you knew my concerns about them building the dam, then cutting into it to install the pipe and not being able to compact the area around the pipe with the sheepsfoot or a jumping jack type compactor.....

Duckweed can be spot sprayed with Clipper.

I feel your pain with the AquaPro feeder. I have 2 of them here that I don't use anymore, and one even has a Texas Hunter timer wired in place instead of the AquaPro timer.

That's why I sell the Texas Hunter feeders - they are pretty bulletproof.

Feeder failures are why I sell TH also.

I completely disagree with liquidsquid (no offense, LSq!) on the reasons for the DW...it needs treating immediately, before seeding, and IF seen again, treated. Algae is the never ending battle due to nutrients. Jeff, in your pond, there really are zero concerns on that algae bloom you are seeing...I can't count all the ponds I have seen this year getting hit with the browns.

Knowing your pond pretty well, from being there, the leak is not concerning me TOO much either. It IS going to need to be addressed, but with the water loss, and only a guess on waterfall, the loss is pretty minor in a "still new" pond!

Don't get depressed yet on what's going on....wait till I bill you for that!

While no leak is good those leaks are relatively minor. If you have a hard time seeing a trickle i'd imagine you are losing less than a gallon a minute. Your evaporation loss is probably around 5-10gpm.

Algae in the pond is like dust in the air - always present.

Thanks all..
I was losing sleep over the leaks.. Looking at them, I'd say it would take a while to fill a gallon jug.
Then the algae was bugging me, Because I really like swimming in the pond.

The duck weed I thought was minor, looks like I need to address it first.

The feeder is "totally my fault" I tried to save a few bucks.. Just plain dumb. Especially when you factor in feed prices. Live and learn.

I TRIED smacking you upside the head on the feeder, but had no step-ladder around to get my short butt, 6'5" off the ground! lol

I agree, the DW is first to address, feeder as you can but no "emergency" with still young fish, and the leak(s) will require solid planning....I still think you only have a pipe installation issue....I never said much, but also never liked how it was installed from the first day I saw it....

Cost may not be good, but in all honesty, are no where near as bad as what you may fear.

Address duckweed ASAP - make it priority 1.

FA will come and go, when you get beneficial macrophytes established the available nutrient load will be low and FA won't compete well - in short, it will handle itself over time. If necessary propagate some beneficial cultivars of emergents soon - dwarf hybrid lillies, arrowhead, sedges, rushes, etc. Pondweeds will come soon, maybe by next year. In the meantime, get rake or long handle net and remove it manually. It will disrupt the cycle of growing, dying, and decomposing and adding nutrients back to the water.

Monitor leaks - sounds minimal - spot treatment of sealant is always an option. Call me if you need to walk through solutions.

AP feeders are what they are - save your pennies and go TH and never look back.

The only reason I say fighting DW is futile is it rides in on everything, turtles, ducks, frogs, geese, etc. If you have an investment pond or swamp nearby. In my big pond, it doesn't last a second due to the Koi and low nutrients. My garden pond is the other way around. Heavy nutrients, DW from hell, and too small for Koi. Rake it all out and it is back full coverage in a few days.

No offense taken whatsoever, as with everything to do with ponds, it depends. Many of you have far more experience than I do with these things, so take my advice with some salt, thus my signature.

I've not had that bad experience with it, liquidsquid. I agree that if other nearby ponds (~1/4 mile or less away) have it, it can be a long term fight, but, fought in small infrequent battles if approached correctly.

Was up at the pond today. The leak is worse than I thought.
Here's the back of the dam. We had to move a lot of dirt..


I'll try to upload a video of the leak. I'd say it's more like a gallon or two per min, vs what I originally said, which was a few minutes per gallon..

Here's the video, if it works. I've never tried to link in a video.

[img:center]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll280...D83F1B71AA1.mp4[/img]

Here's the other leak, if it works. The video is too close. There's no perspective. The video makes it look worse than it is.
[img:center]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll280...AA850386BF6.mp4[/img]

For what it's worth. I have also found the source of the DW.. It's unbelievably thick. This is the small "sink hole" pond that's up above the new pond. This one is very small 30'x30'

I'll stand pat with what I said earlier, that being water moving through the dam by any means other than a pipe is bad news. Maybe get with TJ and see what he recommends?

The sinkhole pond.....any chance of draining that sucker permanently, and drying it out?

I have no experience with fixing a leak like you have, but this is what I see in my minds eye as possibilities. My mind may need glasses so take what I say with a grain of salt.

The leak that close to the overflow pipe seems like the anti-seep collars are not working or not installed properly or compacted properly or something. Looks like water following near the path of the pipe.

If you are lucky, the leak originates right at the area of the entrance to the overflow pipe. If you are lucky. If it originates lower in the dam, not so lucky.

I say that, because if the leak originates from full pool level where the water is flowing under the lower edge of the pipe, down along the pipe, and out the bottom - that means the leak originates very high on the dam face. The easiest place to fix.

If that is the case a person could lower the pond level by several feet, backhoe out the pipe being careful to keep enough dirt between the water level so the dam is not breached, fix what is wrong and properly compact the pipe and collars back in, and let the pond refill. I'm not a professional. That is just the way this farmer would approach it. Not a recommendation.

Can you pump the pond a few feet down and not hurt anything? If you pump it down and kind of watch the leak periodically as the pond lowers, if the leak stops when the pond is lower two or there feet, that would tell you the source of water was from up high.

Just an idea.

Edit: Might have to backhoe out the upper part, put in an additional collar, haul in some good clay to compact back in the repaired area??????? Just ideas. To be shot down by those that know more and have actual experience.

I don't know his area so this might not apply. He may have natural sinkholes and ours are usually associated with old underground mines so may be different. In our area, any sinkhole that is filled with water generally is associated with some shallow groundwater underneath. Very difficult to drain without digging it out and plugging the source. Government has been doing a bunch of it in the area as funds are available for years and years.

The other thing about draining it, if it is a natural hole and not man made, anything drained that contains water plants without the blessing of several government agencies is an invitation to many thousands of dollars of fines a day if the wrong environmental robo-cop type person sees the disturbance on aerial photo and files a complaint. Draining wetlands is a definite no-no, without permission and usually remediation (creating another wetland to offset the loss of the original). Many examples over the years of landowners draining a low spot to build a house or clear an area and getting in lots of hot water.

True, but he stated it was up above the new pond site, so I wouldn't think he could've got the ok to build his pond if it was a sensitive area. If it were on my property, I would probably try filling it in. For every one situation big brother makes an example out of, there are thousands more that get done with no problems. I like those odds.

Let's burn some diesel.

The way this pond was built, was solid. The rock in the dam I have seen is not porous or sand stone, so it was good substrate fill with sheepsfoot compaction. How the drain pipe was added later, and having personally seen a large void under the pipe where no clay had been makes me positive the leak runs the full length of the pipe, and around the 2 seep collars installed. I have no doubt the "fix" will be digging up and proper reinstallation of an overflow....Not the cheapest fix, but way less than most redo's.

Sparky, in this area, no permission or pond permits required at all, unless at a federal level due to acre/feet of water retained, or toe height of the dam exceeding 32 feet.

Jeff, tell the brothers you have a place for some waste fill...the sink hole....

Jeff, if you don't want to partially drain, dig out the drain pipe and replace with proper compaction, don't mess around; get in touch with TJ asap.

I'd hate for you to come out one weekend and see a large gap where the drain pipe was, and have it all wadded up on the neighbors property, with a large chunk of the dam washed there too, along with the fish and water....

The cost of doing either fix is MUCH less then if you have to repair a washed out dam. Think of it as a cheap insurance policy. In my opinion, the longer the leak is there, the more fine dirt is washed out, making the leak worse. I think that's why you are seeing it getting larger.....

Compared to the money that has already been spent, protect your investment. Need I bring up the fish feeder?

The problem with a blow out is that the dam soils go with the water. Mixing and knitting new dirt with the existing stuff is always iffy.

Perfect! Throttle up.