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First, please forgive me in advance for the long post, I am trying to give all of you as much ammo as I can to help me ward off what I fear is a pending fish kill. I live deep in the Ozarks of MO, and like much of the midwest, it has been both hot lately and a whole lotta rain.

Having said that , we have had much hotter weeks of heat over the 10 years since we dug this pond and had it connected to an older existing pond, now it is just one pond separated by an island with two bridges. Everyone was so helpful when I asked for help last time, I am disabled with a very badly broken back from an accident 15 years ago, but a 12 hour surgery has allowed me to walk normally, etc, just have to suffer lots of pain constantly, a small price to pay. Now we have been hit with a diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease for me, so the urgency to get this property we have ( 43 acres ) in order so my wife can handle it is of greater importance than ever.

Before last winter which put 8" of ice on the pond for 6 weeks, we had lost less than 5 fish in the previous 9 years. After the ice melted, we began finding 4-5 BG everyday for several weeks, no idea how many were found by the coons at night. However, oddly enough, not a single fish of any other type seemed to suffer, and all the BG were the same size, not real monsters, but fairly large, over a pound, nothing smaller, nothing bigger.

That finally stopped and all went well, then about 6 weeks ago our very large CC began croaking, only the big ones, no other fish involved, we lost 14 ( that we discovered ), yesterday 2 more with one weighing in at 24 pounds. Again, only a certain size of them ( and none of the albino CC died ) were dying, all very large, none had been bitten, hurt in any way, no markings, etc. Pond has not been fished in months so I ruled out gut hooked, way to many for that, it is seldom fished anyway.

Now, yesterday it stepped up its game and we found 7 dead BG of all sizes. One very odd fact, four of them had been drug well off the water by 5 feet or more but were not eaten. Yesterday our first albino CC died ( large again ) yet the mid size of 5-8 pounds seem to flourish, as do the GC (large devils ) and LB, we have never found any of them dead in 10 years, we see them ( GC ) in the evenings cleaning up any missed food left over by the other fish, actually good scavengers for us.

Here is what I have potentially ruled out based on my flawed knowledge of maintaining this pond these last 10 years and the information I gather from reading PB mag and these posts.

1. Temp to hot unlikely, I have been in the pond, feels the way it always does at this time of the year, and no other fish are affected.

2. Oxygen...don't think so, there are not that many fish in the pond, water volume compared to fish numbers is large, and there are no fish on the surface sucking air, etc.

3. Contaminated. Possible, but why are the LB, mid size CC and the GC apparently immune to it? This is a high bank pond, does not get water from runoff, stays full either by rain or a well I had put in 10 years ago when the second pond was dug just for that reason, to keep it level in the summer, never been an issue.

4. Disease. I know that there are some specific diseases to CC,but why would only the biggest, meanest, toughest fish in the pond croak, leaving all the mid sized ones intact?

Feeding. Here is the possible culprit in two ways. One, as the large, big eaters began croaking, I completely forgot ( stupid Alzheimer's ! ) to turn back the food, I know the rule of thumb is they need to clean it all up in 10-15 minutes, but all these years they wiped out everything in 2 minutes tops, as I watched them feed each night through the spotting scope from my back door ( pond is only 90 yards away ) I noticed that it was taking a LOT longer than normal to clean it up, but I just failed to make the connection until a few days ago when I cut them off completely. I noticed some uneaten pellets on the surface 4 hours after the feeder had gone off, so I realized that they are very few fish left to eat, they do come up and aggressively feed, just a lot fewer of them, lost so many BG in the freeze and then the big eaters, the 18-24 pound CC are all but gone, still a few big albinos left...I think. Found another large CC today on the island, the buzzards had stripped him to the bone, no idea if it was an albino or not, but can't see why it would make any difference.

The other part of the feeding issue I saw elsewhere on other posts, has to do with Aquamax. I have always used 500 on one side for the BG and 600 on the large , deep side for the CC. Can't get it anymore and had to switch to Purina Gamechow, which is still 32% protine, but does not have that "fishy" smell of the Aquamax, almost oderless in fact, but fish did not seem to care, and I THINK our first few dead CC we found were before we even made the change.

As for the pond, it is very green, always has been, using the tool that PB taught me to make ( thank you very much ) today has the visibilty at 18-20" I sent a water sample to the university about 4 yeaars ago and was suprised to find that virtually everything was within range and they said they had zero recommendations.

I realize it is time again for that sample, I am so afraid that by the time all of that is done I may suffer a catastrophic loss, already has been when our prized heavyweight CC have all been taken out, now it appears to be the BG turn.

Again, I am so sorry for the long post, I have to get out everything I can while it is fresh on my mind or ....well...it won't be on my mind by tomorrow unless I am reminded...by floating fish!

Ideas, thoughts, etc all appreciated. BTW, geeze are our buzzards happy, 15 or more sit in a dead tree right next to the pond and just sit and wait for the next one to pop up! Thank you so much in advance!

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I can't offer any help but just some encouragement for you to hang in there. Hope someone can help you out.

I've lost a few LMB in the last week. Have not posted about it yet but have not seen any more in the last few days so hope whatever it was has past.

Good luck with everything. You have a plate full.


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I personally would get some aeration going in there. If what you say about extra fish food going uneaten on the bottom is true, you could have rotting fish food down there causing some water quality issues. I am thinking of the typical aquarium ownder dumping in too much food to the point the fish die from low DO and high nitrates (nitrites? I can never keep them straight)

An aquarium water test kit should work if this problem is true. Take samples down near where the food sinks.

Sorry to hear of your health issues, and hoping some new therapies will become available to help you out.

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I have nothing to offer but find this problem interesting and am watching to learn. On another note, supposedly Duke University has some sort of Alzheimers treatment that is working well in tests. I sure hope that some profit driven organization comes up with something, the disease runs in my family.


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Catbird84,

There have been cases of statin drugs mimicing the effects of alsheimers. In the least one if the side effects for SOME people is excessive absent mindedness. Someone told me his coworker had to stop using it as it was effecting his job performance.

Read about a NASA scientist that would get bouts of amnesia but when taken off of the statin drug it stopped. His doctor skeptical it was the drug put him back on the drug to determine if it was the cause, and sure enough his amnesia came back.

Keep in mind it apparently effects only a small percentage of people this way. Just hoping on some chance your problems aren't alsheimers!

I started taking generic version of Lipitor and before I looked up some of the side effects killed a tank full of bluegills. Pulled the knife gate valve to drop the water level a little and walked away. Never came back for several hours. That's not like me. Needless to say 100 8 to 12 ounce bluegills in the bottom of a dry tank isn't a pretty sight. Maybe nothing to do with the drug and just old age. Who knows?

Catbird84 wish I could give you some advice. I'll be praying for your health.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 08/02/15 10:57 AM.

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Thanks to everyone for their concern, I am taking meds, but as most of you know, SS doesn't exactly cover the costs to well for these drugs...unfortunately, I developed side effects ( insomnia ) from the top tier drugs used for treatment, although even they said on the sheet that came with them that they MAY help slow down but will definitely not stop the progression of the disease. I am ok with it, the cards I have been dealt, so I will play them the best I can. I am a realist. I know that while many diseases have a very slim chance of recovery, there are always a few that have beaten all odds and have done so....but not so for this, no one in recorded history has, I know I will not be the first, but I will enjoy every day I have as I always have until I can no longer remember I am enjoying myself!!


As for the fish, I fired up our deep water (525') well 2 days ago pumping in very cool ( but oxygen low ) water to see if it is uneaten fish food spoiling the water if I can possibly dilute the water a bit. No dead fish this morning, but the buzzards believe they know something, refusing to leave or even move much when I go out there. BTW, I am not sure this food ever makes it to the bottom, if it goes uneaten it just floats for hours until it hits the banks, usually eaten by turtles but I have few of them.....and oddly enough, never any frogs....just a helping share of our neighborly friend the Blue Heron, who I used to shoot about 5 foot from it to make it fly off ( there are always 4 or five that make the pond circuit out here, all farms have the same ponds pretty much ) so they just fly of ours on to another. And there go the frogs...and small turtles...and and fish stupid enough and small enough...GC are definitely safe, ever our pit bull is spooked of the water after playing it in last 2 years when she spotted one of those monsters swimming right beside her, she caught a new gear we did not know about, now won't go in over her head!!

Only thing about the food spoiling ( which I agree without a water sample is the most likely suspect ) is why it would take out ONLY the large, healthy CC, a fish I have know all my live to be pretty tough under most conditions compared to many other types. The 7 dead BG so far seem to be a one time thing ( fingers crossed ) but why would none of the LB or GC or even the medium 5-8 pound CC be affected? That is the oddest part to me.

Again, thanks to all!! I appreciate it very much.

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One thing I forgot to add ( Ha..I forgot! ) is that the pond is ( or was I should say ) in its normal mode of reproducing requiring me to never have to stock, until the BG loss of last winter ( again, why only the BG and no other fish, and why only one certain size of BG? ) and I noticed this year earlier lots of 6" bass as I do every year, some but not as many small BG, lots of small CC ( including albinos ) and even what appears to be baby GC....I did not think that was supposed to happen....at any rate, none of the smaller fish of any type, (nor any of the huge GC that have done nothing but grown fat off the feeders but I can't really complain, normally they will eat even one single pellet in places other fish will not go) have turned up, and until yesterday it was a club reserved for one exclusive SIZE of a breed of fish, cause there are perhaps 30 more doing just fine as far as I can tell, just smaller. Baffling!!

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I think DO crashed. Maybe one of the real experts will weigh in on what to do.

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Yeah, I'm also betting on a DO crash. In that, the bigger fish seem to get hit more quickly.

I wish I had the words to say anything about the AZ. I know too much about it.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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Two day now without a fish dead that I can find. Well water still on but pond is nearly full and will have to be shut off tomorrow. I am so sorry to have to plead ignorance on this, but what does "DO" crash stand for? I tried to find it in abbreviations section but could not even find that. Sorry bout that, thanks for the input!

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Originally Posted By: catbird84
Two day now without a fish dead that I can find. Well water still on but pond is nearly full and will have to be shut off tomorrow. I am so sorry to have to plead ignorance on this, but what does "DO" crash stand for? I tried to find it in abbreviations section but could not even find that. Sorry bout that, thanks for the input!


Dissolved oxygen. Do you oxygenate your well water prior to adding it?

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You need to baffle the well water to expose it to air before it goes in the pond.
















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I am having some kind of luck, I just typed the up to the date issues so far and I hit some button at the bottom of my keyboard and accidently and lost everything. My back is telling me that I cannot do it again for a bit, gotta go lay in the recliner for a few hours, sorry about that.

Good news is that we are on day 5 without a croaked fish! Thanks to all for your advice, I will post the current issues later today.

Thanks again!

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I am not sure how to oxygenate my well water, it draws from a very deep well, and is pumped into the pond via a 1" or so PVC pipe that sticks out of the water and shoots a stream out into the middle of the pond, making quite a splash.. I would love to be able to do that, and I will as soon as I figure out how, but I am pretty sure that lack of oxygen from that well is not an issue.

It has been pumping like Ol faithful for a decade when needed during the hot summers to make up for both evaporation and a leak in the pond, additionally, occasionally I will add some in the winter to create a hole in the ice.

I have never seen a single fish near the surface gulping for air, or any other signs that the pond is to low in oxygen, and with a perfect record for 10 years, ( and considering that adding the water makes up only a very tiny portion of the overall water supply ), I am ASSUMING the problem is elsewhere. And ( please correct me if I am wrong! ) I would think that CC would be one of the last fish to suffer from low oxygen, not the first, is that right?

At any rate, 6 days now and counting, strangely as it appeared it has seemed to go away, at least for the moment. I have noticed at least 2 very large CC still alive and doing well, as well as at least 6 big albino CC, so whatever it is, hasn't got every one of them yet. It is such a shame that the last CC I found, the 24 pounder, had to go that way, it would have given some kid the fight of a lifetime if it could have been caught.

I placed a trail camera on the area I put that that big fish as well as the only albino CC ( and smaller, no larger than 15 pounds ) and the buzzards began their work, and at night the Racoon moved it. It took 2 days for 11 buzzards and 5 racoon to clean all of that fish up, I got over 1000 pics of those crazy looking birds!

As usual, the LB, GC and BG are all doing fine. After that very odd loss of 7 bluegill in one day of all sizes, I have not found any more since then. I turned on the feeders again at 1/8 of the normal amount they get to see how many fish are left, what type, etc.

For the size of the pond, we do not have a lot of fish left, but there are a significant number of medium size CC, both regular and albino, as well as at least 6 very large GC, but the BG numbers are at a all time low. Unfortunately, a group I let fish the pond early this year not only caught 4 very large CC which I wanted since I had to many of the really big guys in the 18-20+ pound range, they also slaughtered the BG in a big way and filled up an entire ice chest with the largest BG, I had instructed them to toss back the largest ones....however, wires got crossed and they kept all of them, population was never the same again between that and the winter kill of BG.

Basically, based on what I see feeding every evening, we do not have an abundance of fish of any kind.... probably a lot of LB, no one is able to ever catch them no matter how hard they try save for one guy. So I think I need to grab a water sample and send it off to the university like I did 4 or 5 years ago and see what is up.

Thanks everyone for your help!!

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BTW, I forgot ( I gotta get used to that I guess ) to mention, I saw quite a sight about 2 weeks ago ( right in the middle of the CC die off ) while standing at the feeders waiting for them to go off, I saw a wounded or perhaps dead BG, not a monster, but over a pound floating up to the surface on the smaller side of the pond, several CC took a swipe at it with no luck.

However, that wave action caused it to float over to the deep side of the pond and I happened to be looking at the fish when out of the depths came a huge CC that swallowed it and it had a mouth so large that BG did not even appear to touch any portion of its mouth. Got a pretty good look at that fish, it looks an awful lot like the 24 pounder I found later, but it was quite a sight to be that close ( only 3 feet or so ) to the action and see a huge fish eat a pretty good sized fish!!

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We have made it just over a week now with no new fish finds, I have read about some specific diseases that CC get on occasion, but they are all indiscriminate diseases, will infect the medium sized CC same as any size , and the distinct lack of any mid size CC seem to rule out them, at least for the moment.

Will have to have a look at the water sample. Despite the hot summers we occasionally have to endure, our pond never forms any "duckweed" or any type of algae that we see covering many ponds in the surrounding area, although for the last 10 years we clearly have a pretty big algae bloom, water appears to be very green, always does until winter sets in, then we can see 4 feet or more, but the visibility is still in the 18- to 20" range even at its worst, although at first glance it sure does not look like it.

The buzzards refuse to give up however, with a dozen hanging around in the big dead tree not far at all from the pond....patiently waiting.....love big birds, but they do kinda give me the creeps a little knowing they are just relaxing, waiting for death to overtake something!!

BTW, last year I was able to take some great shots of 5 bald eagles that took up that tree for a few hours resting, preening, etc. Only 90 yards from our backdoor, 5 beautiful bald eagles, took as many pics as I could, we see them occasionally flying over ( as well as the B2 bomber, we are not far from their base ) but we have never seen 5 at one time sitting in a tree. It was a great set of pics, but I could never managed to get more than 3 at a time in the tree, others were flying just over the top, landing, taking off, etc.....still.....such a wonderful day that was!

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I apologize for not getting back and keeping all up to date, frustrating as it is, I actually "forget" that I have even posted a cry for help unless I see another dead fish, and we have been lucky since that odd destruction of our main big CC supply....things have gone normal again.

I watch the fish feed each evening and they are quite aggressive, creating a boil as they have for so many years, yet unlike all the years past when those very large CC took control over the mass of the food and took first pick at it, before the death all all those CC it took less than 2 minutes tops ( often in less than 60 seconds in mid summer ) for all activity to subside as all the pellets had been taken.

Now, without them, the feeding is just as aggressive, but it takes the fish 5 minutes to completely clean up less than a quarter of the amount they used to get before the loss. So looking at it overall, it seems to have returned to normal, for the time being anyway.

One odd note, a newscast yesterday said that a large number of fish, all "sucker fish" as they described them, had suddenly been discovered floating on the surface, ( Table Rock Lake ) just as mine were, except for the species, they said as it turned out, the fish died due to the very large amounts of rain flooding in lots of nutrients and ( late in the year they pointed out ) that combined with high water temps, set up a case that when the plankton died they used oxygen, and basically all these yellow Suckers and Shad died from lack of oxygen , but they explained it had no effect on game fish, bass, walleye, etc were all unaffected. Which, BTW, I find odd.

While interesting, and cannot be ruled out since I also did not lose any bass, etc, I still would not expect the CC to be the first fish to die from lack of oxygen, or that I should have at least seen some signs such as fish at the surface, etc for clues to any oxygen issues, but I suppose there is some logic that the largest fish in the pond need the most oxygen.....but why would none of the extremely large GP be affected?

Still very confused after such a great run for so long, knew I was bound to have an issue one day, just never expected it to be such a mystery of picking on one species and only one size of them.

Thanks again to all, I appreciate any ideas that come forward, I know it is a difficult problem to even speculate on.

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One Last thought here...it has been suggested to me by a few locals that perhaps it is an otter. I dismissed this since the catfish are extremely large, the 24 pound one was as heavy as some otters, and most of the dead fish had no marks on them at all, I assume if it was the work of an outer, after the fight with a fish that big there would be evidence on it.

And, I seriously doubt they will pick a fight with the biggest nastiest fish in the pond when there are so many of a better size to eat, additionally, I should see some evidence of them since they cannot stay under the water like a turtle for hours, and we are down there often watching the dogs swim, etc and I watch the pond constantly from the house with a spotting scope ( 45X ) and have never seen one in 10 years.

Finally, we are nowhere near any of the rivers / lakes that they have been recently established in, many miles aways in fact.

Now, having said that, we found the oddest thing this year right in the middle of one of our bridges. Two very large ( I have pics ) freshwater clams that were 4 inches long had been scooped up from the deep water apparently ( we had no idea that we had any clams, much less clams that are so huge,) but if they were close enough to shore for a coon to get them we would see them, we ride around the border of the pond every day scouting, etc.

The thing about it that was so odd, other than discovering things in your pond that we had no idea existed in it, was that they had been EXPERTLY opened, the shells were not only perfectly intact, one with a slight chip, the other was not even fully separated, it was still held together by the hinge in the middle, just everything inside had been eaten. And they had been discovered clearly somewhere in the pond, taken to the middle of the bridge near the fish feeders, and cleanly, very cleanly in fact, gobbled up.

But I cannot figure an otter into the catfish ordeal, no signs of a fight of any kind, took place over 4 weeks or so, would have seen it at least one time.

One question about the DO ( now that I understand what that is ) shouldn't I have seen some other signs like fish at the surface, other fish dieing, etc. And I thought CC handled a DO issue better than most fish, heck, I have seen them live in mudhols. It is a fairly large body of water for relatively few fish, it seems that DO would have hit a few years ago when heat was much higher than this year, lots more fish, etc? Still confused? Thanks to all for their help, and again, sorry for not getting back sooner, I keep forgetting that I even have a post up for help unless I see a dead fish which has not been happening, now that I have to renew PB I remembered!

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And so it continues. Thought it was finally over, did not find a dead CC for several weeks, albeit all but one of the big boys had already croaked. Yesterday, I found him, floating in the pond, the last semi large fish left, maybe 12 pounds. He had been chewed up quite a bit in the mid section unlike the others which were mostly untouched. I think he was just in the water to long as he was very rough smelling and the turtles and little fish had been pecking away for some time I suspect.

So that is it, according to what I see each evening when they feed I slowly observed our entire population of large CC get completely wiped out, took maybe 6 weeks total, leaving all the mid sized fish ( and the very large GC ) in no apparent distress.

I still have not seen any of the classic signs of low oxygen, and if that was the problem, I would have though that losing so many large fish would have made things better.....I just wonder if their is a specific disease unique to CC that does not affect other species? But if so, why does it only kill the large fish?

Still very confused and clueless as to what to do, I now have a fairly large body of water with few fish in it, based on the 10 year history of this pond of having a LOT of fish eating a lot of food without ever having lost a fish that we could find, it should be a haven by this point, like having the pool all to yourself!

One question maybe someone can help me with, I know the well water we pump in ( and have been all 10 years since the pond does have a leak ) has basically no OZ, but does it gain any or help the existing water when it is shot out of a 1" PVC pipe and lands in the middle of the pond with lost of splashing?

Again, thanks to all!!

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The largest fish in the pond consume the most oxygen. Sometimes fish are not smart enough to move to areas of the pond that have more O2.

Shooting the water out into the pond from the well helps, but the best way to oxygenate the water that I've seen is via a packed column like Cecil uses:

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...ite_id=1#import

It's not the prettiest thing, but function outweighs aesthetics.

O2 levels ebb and flow in a pond, with the lowest levels occurring right before or at daybreak. If you don't do something to add O2 to the pond (like an aeration system) that adds O2 during the pond, expect this to happen anytime that the biochemical oxygen demand is greater than what the fish need to survive, even if there is only 1 fish in the pond. It's not only fish that need oxygen, it's all the plants, algae and bacteria in the pond too, whenever the sun isn't shining and photosynthesis is not happening.

As a pond gets older and older, the BOD increases due to the organics that make their way into the pond.

As I see it, you have 2 choices:
1) Reduce the BOD of the pond.
2) If #1 isn't possible, then you have to add a properly designed aeration system and run it enough to keep the O2 levels up. If you don't have a way to measure that, I would run it 24/7 when water temps are over 70°F and when there is ice and snow on the pond.


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Catbird, I am guessing like others, that you had low DO and High water temps. Plus, catfish over 10 pounds in an unfed pond are simply pushing the limits we all do...old age. My guess is the ones dead, were all original stockers. It is entirely possible something sick found it's way into your pond and the CC scavenged on it and picked up a nasty bug, especially since you say no turtles or other CC scavenged any, except the recently dead one.

It is also a catch 22, when low DO causes a few fish to die, their bodies often don't float and the bacteria of decay consume a lot more DO, making the low DO even worse.




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