Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations My SMB/YP/RES Pond Overrun by GSF/BH

I decided I'd start a new thread since my original one was getting quite long and with the discovery of a large population of GSF and BH my pond is going to change from my original plan.

I started out with a vision of a SMB/YP fishery because I have other ponds that have the traditional LMB/BG mix and wanted something different.

Heading to my SMB/YP goal, here's what I've stocked to date;

Fall 2013

Golden Shiners - 4 Pounds
Fathead Minnows - 10 Pounds
Papershell Crayfish - 200
2-3" Redear Sunfish - 75

May 2014

4-6" YP - 150

October 2014

4-6" Small Mouth Bass - 40

We have also caught GSF, BH and some hybrids as well. We have caught small GSF in minnow traps pretty regular for the past couple months and am willing to keep the practice up. I am also feeding three times a day for 20 seconds and have been since planting the first fish in the pond.

Here's some photos of where the fish are at today;







We've caught GSF up to 7", but the majority have been 3-5" and we have kept over 200 of them out of the pond.










Only caught three of these so far, but I'm sure there are many more.

Now moving forward, I don't want to nuke the pond, but I do want to have decent catch rates as I have three young kids that are getting addicted to fishing. I would like to keep the SMB and YP with ample numbers and edible size. I'm open to just about any ideas

I am assuming I need to step up the feed to help offset the additional mouths, which isn't a problem as I don't have any water issues. (Other than suspended clay. Could that be coming from my BH's?) I've been feeding morning, noon and night. Is it better to feed longer at these times or add additional feedings?

Will the SMB/YP/GSH be able to reproduce with the GSF in the pond?

Will the SMB be an ample predator in the pond once they get to size?

Any other thoughts on how to move forward?

congrats huntmaster. Your fish look great! Of course the unwanted/unexpected fish might monkey wrench things a bit but you can work through that too.

I'm on the west side of the state and you have about a 1 year jump on me when stocking.

Do you trap crayfish or get a sense of how many of them survived?
My GSH look like yours, yours look fat/wellfed. Have they spawned for you if you can tell?
Perch show great growth and look good!

I suspect I may have one or more unwanted bullhead, how did you catch yours? I also have a stirred up pond that I didn't have before. I need to check if my aerator 'silted' in and is stirring up the bottom or if I have some bottom feeding activity.

I have a few crayfish but was considering a order of 100-200 papershells. I don't have any SMB to eat crayfish but if there ever are babies I imagine my perch will go after them

Our pond isn't very big for fishing, and I'm trying to get a handle on the balance of weeds/algae. So far the algae is minimum on the edges, maybe my tilapia are nibbling at it and doing some good, not sure. I see a little algae maybe in the background of your pictures but it looks like yours is 10% or less of pond surface which is good for the pond forage base.

So good to see other Michigan ponds with successful forage base and good fish growth!

Thanks Canyon!

Do you trap crayfish or get a sense of how many of them survived?

I've seen a couple and actually caught a small one in a GSF trap, but really haven't tried trapping any so I'm not sure how many made it. I'd suspect most made it as they looked very good when released.

My GSH look like yours, yours look fat/wellfed. Have they spawned for you if you can tell?

I'd say they have because I get the occasional one in my GSF traps and see them from shore regularly.

I suspect I may have one or more unwanted bullhead, how did you catch yours?

Hook and worm with a bobber right off shore.

I see a little algae maybe in the background of your pictures but it looks like yours is 10% or less of pond surface which is good for the pond forage base.

Yeah, I have a little around the perimeter, but the majority of the pond is pretty clean.

Couple of those fish just below the obvious GSF look like hybrids. The first one GSF/RES possibly. That is actually a hybrid I have been wanting to come up with in my pond. Since you have no BG in the pond the one following it likely is also (its features just do not seem quite as obvious). Their body height in relation to their mouth size is too great to be a pure GSF (in my non-expert opinion - I have been wrong many times on fish ID so maybe the experts will chime in).

To me personally, that would be a very desirable fish to have in a pond and I would return them to the water. But you may have other goals.

I'm thinking this one might be a RES X GSF hybrid.

That was my thinking as well. I've thrown a few of the 3-5" hybrid looking ones back in the pond along with a couple that look like straight RES.

I do not think you will be sorry. The hybrids in my pond are some of the most fun to catch.......... but then I like catching pan fish on light tackle most anyway.

One thing about having RES as the only other sunfish (that you know of ) besides the GSF stocked in the pond, it pretty well limits what the GSF can be crossing with. As they grow, I hope you give us a lot more pictures of the hybrids for future reference ID purposes.

So true about knowing what is in the pond. Before we started fishing it this summer, I didn't think I'd have much to catch yet. Wrong big time on that account...it's been fun even with the surprises. Still waiting to find one of my SMB for a size check.

I'm not that up on the hybrids, but aren't most of them sterile?

I most definitely will keep the pics flowing, that's half the fun...

Also from and old, old research paper where ponds were stocked with RES/GSF hybrids it was found that a GSF female X RES male was a very easy and reliable in-pond cross that could be made. They were unsuccessful at producing GSF male X RES female in a natural environment. It could be done in the lab artificially, but not in pond natural conditions.

So if this old research holds true, your hybrids are likely from a GSF female and RES male.

As I recall, this natural cross produces about as many females hybrids as male hybrids (unlike GSF female X BG male which produces a high number of males and few females)

Just an FYI. Experts correct me if my memory fails on this subject.

No, my understanding is that the hybrids in general are not sterile. It is just that the most commonly sold hybrid is a GSF female X BG male and that particular cross is usually in the high 90% range of males. Both the males and female hybrids are fertile, but there are just few females produced therefore few potential eggs produced.

I have read a research paper where when some unusual hybrid crosses were done in the lab that normally do not happen in natural environment, the researchers came up with some unusual fish behavior that prevented the F1's to be able to successfully raise young. In one case as I recall, the males made nests but were so aggressive at protecting the nests and fighting amongst themselves, they continually scared the females away and were never able to get natural reproduction. But these were in odd crosses that normally do not happen naturally.

The GSF female X RES male is supposed to be an easy cross to occur naturally, likely more so if mates of their own species are not readily available to mate with. In other words where the researchers put only male RES and female GSF in the pond and there were no other options for spawning, the hybrids were readily created without fail.

It looks like my perch pulled off a successful spawn in spite of the GSF. Caught this guy in one of the small fish traps.





Here's my large fish trap sitting on the edge before I moved it out to deeper water. Hoping to catch the larger GSF, BH and maybe even get a sampling of a SMB since I haven't caught one on a line yet.





I didn't realize that I would have an influx of these monster frogs! I think they are Green Frogs, but there has been a bunch of them in the pond from day one.

Green frogs do not get that big. It is almost 100% chance a bullfrog. Nice YOY perch at about the normal size (3"-4") for early Aug.

X2 on Mr Cody's response - that's a bullfrog. Great to have in a pond IMHO...add forage and very little negatives as far as I know.

Then I must have Green Frogs as well because I Googled the pics on how to ID them last year and the one I was looking at was definitely a green. I didn't really look all that close at this one other than to get it out of the cage and then my boy grabbed him from me to release, so I just assumed it was a green. Cool!

I have several shallow wetlands that are within 100-150 yards of my pond, so they should have a pretty good breeding ground for a continued crop.

Hunt, I'm fighting the same battle you are with the BH/GSF down in Texas. I'm working on carp as well. It's a fun battle to fight, but like yours, my pond is suffering badly from suspended clay. It worries me that it will hurt my sight feeders (LMB/BG). I'll be following your post with interest. Good luck!

Shietown, good luck with the carp. If you find an efficient way to reduce their numbers let me know. I've had them ruin my 20 acre pond and they were in the process of ruining my .6 acre pond. I even loaded the .6 acre pond with predators like HSB, SMB and LMB and I still couldn't get any improvement. I nuked it and started over. My 20 acre pond I've kind of given up the battle and have moved on to trying to use the carp to my advantage. The plan is that they are going to be food for my blue catfish. I'll see how that works over the next decade.

Well it looks like BG's have made it into the pond some how as well. This is the only one we have caught in the pond so far and it didn't make it back in.




Unreal how many different species are in the pond already!

If the RES you stocked were small (1" or so) it is very hard (for me at least) to distinguish a RES from a BG. It might be that a few BG contaminated your RES order from your supplier.

Just one possibility.

Another observation I made today concerning other species entering our ponds.

I've been trapping small BG & RES to transfer from my sediment pond to the main pond. I scoop a half five gallon bucket of water to put these caught fish in to take over to the main pond. Noticed today when I scooped the bucket of water, a couple of tiny minnows were in the water. Between an eighth and quarter inch long. Not that I care about a minnow transfer between my ponds, but fish are delivered in water.

Not that a reputable dealer would use contaminated water to deliver fish. But think how easy it would be for a yolk sac size fish, or tiny snail, or mussel or FA, or anything else that grows in water, to get into our ponds. If the most stringent controls were fudged or the high school kid working part time texting and not paying attention or whatever, hitch hikers could find a ride.

This weekend we spent several hours fishing the pond and caught a good variety of fish.

I've been wondering when we were going to catch one of the original stocked RES, but this guy obliged.

8.5" long and weighed 0.48 lbs

I also caught a really nice YP that was around 12". While taking it over to the barn to measure and weigh, I stopped to let him breath in the water a bit and he squirmed out of my hands... So no weight or actual length on him, but he was by far the biggest one we have caught to date. Most of the others are hovering around the 10" mark right now.

One good thing about getting surprise fish in the pond, we fileted and fried up ~10 BH's that we caught. I've never had them before, but they were pretty darn good.


Still haven't had a SMB hit one of our lures, but I did catch two of these bass in my big trap. Are these LMB?

Yeah, that's a LMB.

That is what I thought it was after thinking about it some more and looking back at the pics today. At the time, I just thought SMB because other than stocking them, I've never really seen SMB.

Well...All I can say is what a ride in a short period of time! So now we can add LMB to my contaminated little watering hole...

Nice RES. By Shorty's observations of the fin length in relation to the urogenital opening, looks like a female.

I was thinking male based on the urogenital opening and the brighter colored ear tab. Pelvic fin length seems to vary a little bit between individuals and quite a bit based on body condition. Pelvic fin length is possible indicator of male and female RES, but I would not consider it a very reliable one on its own. When sexing RES look at the whole picture, eartab, urogenital opening, pelvic fin length, and see if everything lines up as male or female like it should.

Reading this thread makes me feel lucky that all I've been "blessed" with is LMB in a HSB pond (that we may have stocked with LMB anyway), and gambusia and emerald shiners in another of our ponds.

Well finally I was able to catch one of 40 SMB that were planted in the fall of 2014. They look to be doing well.

0.90 lbs

Congrats! Nice SMB.

Glad to hear things are progressing for you and it is always nice to see someone with an old interesting thread come back and update it to see what has happened.

If you catch any more of the GSF/RES hybrids I sure would be interested to see pictures of those. I think I have been getting a few in my sediment pond but it is hard to tell if they are BG/GSF or RES/GSF because the small hybrids I have been catching in minnow traps (with widened openings to about 2") are small enough it is impossible for me to tell. There is something about the looks that makes me think RES/GSF but may just be wishful thinking. I would like to see more pics that are certain RES/GSF where your pond never had any stocked BG.

Congrats huntmaster. Adding SMB is a goal of mine at some point too. Can you share where the SMB came from and how you fed them? Did they find natural forage? Crayfish? How did you finally catch one?

Also any tips on how you caught the BH? I may have to target that 'unwanted' specie next.

Did you figure out how the other fish got in your 'contaminated hole'?

The SMB are finding something good to eat over there! Maybe the YP?

I will certainly keep posting pics as we go along. The kids have caught a couple 10"+ perch and several GSF, but not sure if they caught any hybrids. We will get plenty of fishing in this summer, so I'm sure we will catch several for pics.

It's been some time since I've updated this thread and figured I'd bump it back up with a report on how the fishery is doing. I have been feeding pretty steady this year after slacking off a bit last year. The fish seem to be responding to the feed and are starting to get back on a cycle.

We have been catching YP of all sizes on a pretty regular basis. I have given the kids a slot limit of 8-10" perch to keep for the dinner plate and the rest go back for later.





A weight of one of the better YP caught this spring




He has turned into a fishing fool!

We've haven't really targeted any of the SMB, but I wanted to try catching one this weekend to get a weight and check on the progress of their growth. After a few casts, I was greeted by a good solid strike and pulled in a 2.62lb SMB. Pretty fun fight!

We still have a bunch of GSF in the pond, but we have been doing a decent job of eliminating them as the boy is big enough now to get the big trap in and out of the water on his own. It has been his daily ritual after school to come home and check the traps to see how many he has caught. He is doing a pretty good job of ID'ing the GSF/RES crosses and getting them back in the pond and then culling the pure GSF. He also has a ball playing with and releasing the several crayfish that usually end up in the trap.

We always seems to catch a bunch of the GSF that are about the size you see in the trap, but rarely catch anything bigger. We've caught a few that were big enough to filet, so I know some are getting bigger. Where do they go?

A couple other observations and comments.

Didn't catch a bullhead last summer that I remember and haven't caught one this year yet either.

Also, thought my shiners had been gobbled up since the kids hadn't caught one this year yet, but they caught two of them Sunday.

I do have a few LMB in the pond as the kids caught one this weekend on a worm. I clipped one of it's fins to see how many we are catching over the summer. My boy is now starting to like fishing for bass, so I'll let him try reeling a few of them in.

I haven't got my aeration system in the pond yet, but that is the next thing as it took me awhile to get the dock in the water as well. The dock is in now though.

I haven't seen or caught any baby bass in the pond, so not sure if mine are reproducing or not. I now need to start the maintenance stage of managing the pond so I can keep this fishery moving forward.

Huntmaster, thanks for taking the time to come back and update us on how things are going. It is encouraging to hear that your MI pond is thriving and despite some curves in the road things are still interesting and rewarding.

You should update your signature line to add the other species you now have and hopefully don't have (You now have LMB and SMB and GSF, hybrids, crayfish, and hopefully no bullhead anymore

Your pond is deep enough that aeration in summer time is a good idea and we are getting towards those water temps. I too have to hook my aerator up as we get into the hot muggies this weekend.

I love your trap. Do you bait it or how do the fish find their way in it every day?

How many SMB did you stock?

Sounds like some great progress on your fishery.

Do you ever catch any RES fingerlings in your trap? I like that big trap.

My Uncle built it a few years ago when he wanted to move some LMB from one of our lakes to another that got froze out. It works pretty good.

We also use a couple of the small minnow traps depending on how much we are home.

No bait in the trap, just throw it in the water and the sunfish come in. I'm guessing they like the structure, but never had to bait it. Only catch a few other random fish, but always habe GSF in there.

I stocked 40 SMB in 2014 if I remember right.

We do catch some that look pure RES and some crosses, but 95% are small GSF. We throw any of the crosses and pure ones back in the pond.

I have found that GSF are very good at going in traps. I usually bait mine but it sounds like they go in anyway in your experience.

If I put a minnow trap in my forage pond that is not supposed to have GSF (but does have some - I remove all I can) I will get a disproportionate number of GSF compared to RES. But if I throw a cast net I will rarely get a GSF but get lots of RES fingerlings.

If I determined my fish population based on the trap results I would think I had mostly GSF. Yet if I use a cast net it shows I have a vast higher proportion of RES compared to GSF (thank goodness!)

I think the RES stumble into the trap by accident mostly. The GSF seem to go in on purpose. Just different nature/habit of different species of fish.

Last night I caught about three dozen RES with the cast net that ranged from 2" to 3+". I identified two GSF and one potential hybrid out of the catch. If I remember will put a trap out and see what I get but my past experience is I will get several GSF and few RES.

I too have an infestation of BH. I was wondering if I should quit feeding so my BG would be hungrier and eat more of the little ones in the black clouds? I stocked bass last December, but I have no idea if any survived to help me control the BH. I have been trapping the adult BH and throwing them out. I got their numbers down to where they don't come and eat the feed anymore.

Perch are still going strong and so are the GSF. Catching a bunch in the trap still.

Struggling to catch many bass. Think we need to mix up our tactics a bit. Boy had a good one on yesterday, but he rigged the pole himself and doesn't really know how to tie a knot on the swivel and it came untied. He was bummed because he has still not caught one bass on our pond ever... His buddies all have caught one, but he is struggling. Oh well, he isn't deterred and keeps after it.



That brings me to the next question. Should I look at any stocking plans in the near future based on what we've discovered so far in the ponds life. I haven't caught any SMB fingerlings in any traps or fishing, but have caught some young LMB while fishing.

This will help.

https://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots