Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Help Bacterial infection in BG cages

Spring 2014 I started an experiment in a 1/3 ac pond by stocking 125 male BG and 95 female YP in hopes of growing trophies. I've encountered several challenges which rendered the first attempt a failure. I encountered low YP WR due to apparent cessation of pellet feeding, and despite dense FHM populations, their body condition continued to decline which to date no one can really explain. Further, yours truly also accidentally introduced at least 1 female YOY BG while sampling and stocking grass shrimp from the main pond during low light conditions - from a top view a YOY BG is hard to spot in a bucket full of shrimp. I began trapping YOY BG in the trophy pond during late Summer, and knew the project was toast. Fall 2015 and I elected to drain, seine, and lime-nuke the pond and start over this Spring [2015]. I caged my BG and YP and overwintered them, and my struggles continued as I discovered after ice out I'd lost two entire cages of male BG to mink [70 fish], and 25% of my female YP.

I kept all fish caged until spawning time to ensure sex ID was accurate, and restocked the experimental pond with 85 male BG and 75 female YP. More on this experiment in another post.

Now....to the point: Prior to restocking the pond, in my BG cage, I noticed a fish with a bulging eye. I netted and culled the fish, hoping it wasn't a bacterial infection of some kind, but if it was, removing it may help prevent infecting other fish. Soon thereafter, I noticed another couple fish exhibiting the same bulging eye issue and my stomach dropped...I immediately called Lusk. He asked that I dissect the eye of a fish to see if there was a nematode behind the lens. It was a rather gruesome procedure, but I reported there was not any visible. He concluded I had a bacterial infection and recommended I treat pellets with antibiotics and corn syrup and feed to the fish for a couple weeks. I purchased several bags of Oxytetracycline, mixed it with the corn syrup, and coated a 5 G bucket of AM 500/600 mix, and started feeding the fish.

Another challenge arose - my BG would not actively feed on the surface of the cage - they for some reason are often notoriously lazy or shy and won't take floating pellets - and I continued to lose fish to the bulging eye infection. Since these fish historically prefer sinking pellets, I developed a new strategy by mixing the antibiotic powder with a small amount of water until dissolved, then poured on AM LMB pellets and allowed them to soak overnight. The following day the pellets had absorbed all the treated water, and were ready to crumble and feed the BG. Pieces of pellet sank slowly, and while the BG seemed to suspect the taste wasn't quite right, they had no option but to feed or starve, and they began taking the medicated, hydrated feed reluctantly. After two weeks, I stopped the treatment and the infection was apparently cured.

In all, I lost 10-12 "trophy" male BG to the infection, but was uber grateful for the direction provided by Bob which helped me save the remaining population. I'd never witnessed anything like this in my fish before, and felt like I should share this with the forum in case you encounter something similar - maybe this will help. I figured the fish were stressed coming out of winter in the cages, and just weak and susceptible enough to catching a lethal bug that quickly spread in the tight quarters.

Here's some heartbreaking shots of an infected fish:

poor fish!!

TJ, I hate this BI hit your fish, but damn you bulldogged this problem until it was resolved. Mad props for recognizing, correcting, then relating this whole deal. Somewhere down the road, this thread will help somebody else.

Yes - Great info and thanks for the post. Well documented.

I hope no one has to go through this, but chances are, someone eventually will. Feel free to ping me for specific product and application instructions that worked for me.

Thanks for sharing the info. Your experience makes those of us with much less experience realize just how valuable the information from experts on this site is.

I think it was one of those experts that said you don't get to the level of being an expert without killing some fish.

Wow, some serious pinkeye there! Poor buggers. Thanks for sharing.

TJ,

As I indicated in a P.M. what I've found out about bluegills in cages, is the large ones get stressed in cages as they are very territorial. I've seen injuries from fighting in cages with large bluegills. If I had to use cages other than for spawning yellow perch and paired bluegills, I would move anything over 8 to 9 inches out of cages. It's possible you can counteract this by having a high enough density that territorial behavior breaks down, but that can bring on other problems.

The very worst thing to do is to put large bluegills in a cage that have never been in a cage.

I can't prove it but I also believe the large males get frustrated they can't sucessfully create a bed in a cage, and work off their urge to spawn, and take it out on other fish. (For spawning paired bluegills in cages one can add a round container with gravel). I use only one male to two females in my 1/10th acre pond to produce all the fry I need.

I once had hybrid bluegills in a cage with largemouth bass. The bass were small enough not to make a meal of the hybrids, but many of the hybrids were coming down with bacterial issues like your bluegill. I was told by a very knowledgeable state hatchery worker, that even those the bass were small, the hybrids still considered them predators and were stressed by them.

Had an interesting learning experience in one of the basement recirculating tanks several months ago. I had two distinct sizes of bluegills in one tank due the fact the hatchery pond had multiple spawns (have prevented that this year by removing the brood fish as soon as I witnessed fry), and my other tanks were tied up with other fish, waiting for two of the three high schools I supply fish to, to get their biofilter cycled. (I'm preventing that too by bringing the biofilter media back to the house after school is out of session, and feeding it ammonia until the school year starts again).

Anyway, I was losing an average of one or two of the smaller size every day and couldn't find an explanation. Once I did grade the fish into two tanks the morts stopped. Apparently the larger bluegills were stressing and beating up on the smaller bluegills. They weren't being shut off the feed by the bigger ones as they were still robust in appearance.

Even though bluegill and some other sunfish are not predator fish, they can be quite aggressive in close quarters. I've even heard of a male bedding in an aquarium that killed a female when she was added. Ask anyone about sunfish behavior on the NANFA site and they will confirm this.

Another thing to keep in mind is fish that are not fed more than one time a day in a confined cage or tank can cause trouble with their neighbors. And in circular tanks keeping the water flowing in a centripedal (tea cup circular motion) keep them less antagonistic too.

I feed my fry to 8 inch bluegills up to 8 X per day in the 75 to 80 F. water I keep them in. I also use a hydrated feed for a better feeding response once the feed gets up to a certain size. They love the alternative feed I got through Esshup.

Most here probably know this, but most of the pathogens fish get attacked by are naturally present in the water and in many cases in their digestive track. They cause no problems unless the fish is stressed. The name of the game with fish or any other animal husbandry is too prevent stress. If you can do that you are ahead of the game. Feeding antibiotics or salt treatments should be a last resort.

Nice info Cecil!

Also, do you find the new feed hydrates easier and faster than AQ??

Cody note: I agree Sprkplug that the new BG feed hydrates very quickly compared to the hard 500 & 600 pellets. To get the hydration to occur even faster use hot water or heat the food in the microwave. Warm water penetrates faster into all the fish foods; smaller sizes soften faster than the larger sizes. Using hot water I can soften AM500 pellets in 30-40 minutes.

Yes I do Tony.

I also have yet to see the hydrated new feed get moldy in the fridge if I keep it in the zip lock bag more than 3 days like I do the Aquamax.

If anybody wants to try hydrating feed, add one part water to 3 parts feed in a zip lock bag. Rotate the bag back and forth for the first minute or so. I use a gallon zip lock bag. Then flip it over a few time in 5 to 10 minutes until the loose water disappears into the feed. Then let it set. It takes a couple of hours with the Aquamax for the water to penetrate to the center of the pellet and completely soften the pellet. With the new feed it's half that time.

Refrigerate when not in use.

No doubt Cody's hot water speeds up the process but I haven't tried it yet.

My tank bluegills and yellow perch go bunkers over the hydrated feed vs. the dry feed.

I've shared here before that the HBG pond has a concrete deck down one side. It gets hot in the afternoon sun, and laying a ziplock bag of hydrated feed directly on it greatly speeds up the softening process.

It's been so long since I hydrated AQ that I suppose I had forgotten how long it takes. Especially after using the new BG feed....that stuff softens up much faster.

I feel like there is some kind of 'buildup' going lately about a new type of superior BG fish food. Is there some press release date where we all can hear more about this fish food and how others can benefit from it? Is it an issue of approving by the mods and getting advertisers aware of a new product coming to compete with them?

I'm sure many of us are eager to try it based on the glowing reports in several recent posts.

For now I know that it is very popular with all types of fish that have tried it, we have seen a picture of it, it is brown, and it is called 'the new fish food'. OK, our appetite is officially 'whet'

also, WELCOME BACK CECIL, last post was in February, and you gave us a great post on the 12th about bluegill. I know for one I certainly missed your knowledge, experience, and very helpful posts!!

CC, if I knew more, I would share it with the forum. Unfortunately in my case, I simply don't have any answers. I can tell you with certainty that my northern BG much prefer the new feed over the other, premium feeds I've tried. By a pretty wide margin actually. And, the new feed is not multi-purpose, in that it's formulated for bluegills.....doesn't mean other species won't eat it of course, but to my knowledge it's the first of it's kind tailored for lepomid consumption. I like that.

There are claims of increased digestability, and improved health for bluegills when on this feed, but I cannot speak to that. I just don't have the necessary experience with the new feed to comment. I have high hopes however, that longer fish lifespans may be in my future....longer life equate to greater growth potential? Hope so.

Maybe Scott or Matt will weigh in with some actual data, rather than my pitiful seat-of-the-pants feel. However, it may be just too soon to tell.

I can tell you this. If all goes according to plan, I intend to switch over to the new feed exclusively, next year.

I don't know much more than Tony. Was lucky enough to live close enough to Scott (Esshup) to pick up some.

I would prefer they make it in pellet form vs. elongated, but that's just my opinion.

The problem is distribution as individual shipping is a killer. And that won't change as long as UPS and FedEx have an oligopoly on shipping in this country.

As far as Aquamax I think it's still a decent product for the price but with periodic hiccups in production, and the lousy public relations, the market is ripe for a competitor.

Product name is Optimal. Shipping individual bags is a killer, but if one can group several orders together with other pond owners, shipping a pallet actually comes out to around $1/lb which is almost inline with AM pricing now. I bought AM in late May for $44/bag - $7-$10 increase over last year - so this price increase is helping resolve some cost issues vs AM.

Right now, production is limited to a feed that's designed for BG. I feed my SMB, YP, BG, HBG, and HSB AM 500-600 mix. I am using the new feed for my BG in cages. They don't seem to have a preference either way but I've only been using it for a few days. I would personally prefer a high protein feed that is designed to feed all my species, so I don't know that this product will work for my goals long term. I also found the feed to be very light and worry about it broadcasting out of a feeder to distances I want. They may be making some changes in the weight moving forward - the feed I have is from their initial trial run and I'm sure improvements will be made down the road.

New BG feed is supposed to have improved palatability, more nutrients/vitamins, and fewer carbs vs. AM which should yield the same fast growing fish without the side effects of organ fatty tissue buildup which decreases the lifespan of fish. Ideally, one should be able to grow a BG to trophy status in a few years, like with AM, but it will remain a trophy for more years than an AM fish. I don't have any evidence of this, just what I've been told is the goal. I think they are performing side by side tests and analyzing results as we speak. Hopefully this information will become available this Fall.

I have a ton to learn about the science behind fish feed, I only have a cursory knowledge. I'm looking forward to learning more at this project continues to unfold. I'll share whatever I learn with the forum.

It IS very light. I feed by hand, and cannot throw unhydrated new product as far as I can AQ. This also translates into a different sound when the feed hits the water. My fish are usually waiting for me, but I wonder if the quieter impact onto the water might not ring the dinner bell as well as the heavier AQ product.



They went with Optimal?? Was my suggestion of Lepomis Lunchables even considered???

TJ,
If you want to see the complexity of the fish food science, browse this brochure. Mind boggling how technical it is. There probably should be a fish food production degree as a offshoot of a fisheries management degree.

Fish Feed Science Mind-Boggle-ry

Thanks to the people who have had samples, and expressed a concern about feeding from a feeder, the diameter has been increased by one mm from 2mm to 3mm.

In measuring the diameter of the feed, I am getting measurements from 2 to 2.5 mm on the original prototype run.

In a TH feeder, it still throws the original prototype run 30 to 30 feet.

I was told in one feeding example the RES quickly learned to eat "pellets" when using this new Optimal fish food. RES of 4"-5" were used in the test. Maybe it is the food's shape of worms that 'turns on' the RES to "pellets"??

I've tried some on a dozen YP I have in a cage and they are reluctant to take it from the surface but they are to take AM also. If I hydrate the Optimal and roll it into balls, no problem.

Even taken out of context, this sounds exactly like something Bob-O would say.

The new Optimal fish food will nicely soften in 10 minutes when using hot water. I just timed a softening process using hot water and Optimal fish food (prototype). I soften my fish food in a plastic container with lid used for margarine or ice cream depending on how much food I need 1 cup to 1.5 gallon. It is important to shake the moist fish food until all the water is absorbed so the food on the bottom does not get mushy or soggy.

Good point Bill. For those of us that think we are just creating mushy food that is not the case. You want it to have the consistency of clay.

If the food comes out mushy and falls apart you did it incorrectly.

Yep, it should still be in pellet form after hydration.

Cody note: Yes hydrated pellets should feel like damp clay, modeling clay or PlayDoh or Pie dough.