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Joined: Jun 2015
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Hello Everyone,

New guy here. I'm on my second summer with my new pond (details below). Last year was fabulous; added 50 Rainbow Trout fingerlings, with only 1 known fatality, they are now 5 to 8'ish inches. Last year I had 3 different small algae blooms that I knocked back with an Aquasphere from Healthy Ponds (recommended by my hatchery).

This year we started out with a hot, fast snow melt that caused the pond to overflow and flood the adjacent meadow to a depth of 1 foot for the first month or so. I think this caused a nutrient problem with the pond. We left for a 2 week vacation and returned to a pond completely taken over by Filamentous Algae. Also, we are in a multi-week wicked heat wave, with some overnight lows that match our historic daily highs! We mechanically removed most of the FA (6-7 buckets with the front end loader) thinking we were removing at least some of the excess nutrients. I added another bacteria/enzyme product called Pondclear by Pond Logic due to recommendations. After a couple of days it is growing back with a vengeance.

I have read this forum for hours but I am still not sure where to go next. Cutrine Plus seems like the easy way out, but I would like to create a pond that is health and balanced, without the need for toxic chemicals on a regular basis. Also, I seem to be the only guy raising trout, so I'm worried that some of my issues are different from the Bass/Bluegill crowd.

Everyone here seems to like Tilapia, but in Montana they are a prohibited species for ponds. Fat Head Minnows (FHM) are legal, but will they mow down my forest of FA?

Do I need to start with chemicals to knock it down and then go back to bacteria/enzymes (BE), and maybe some FHM? If so what chemicals do the least damage long term? Specific brands would be great.

I've read a lot about beneficial water plants here, any specific recommendations for NW Montana, and more importantly, are there any good nurseries in my neighborhood? I can't find any after hours on Google, plus I'd love to hear from someone in my area that found a shop with quality products.

I suppose what I am asking for is an Owners Manual for a clear, normally cold, trout pond. This pond is temporarily overheated with an injection of nutrients to boot. I spent 3 days raking out FA, added beneficial bacteria and gave it a week plus, and see no results, except lots more FA. Help!

TIA,
Brett

My Pond:
-1/3 acre, 14' deep. Visibility >6'. Surface temp 75f
-Excavated dead-end pond filled with well water
-Bentonite liner covered with a layer of 3" washed rock to prevent weed growth.
-1 Kasco Marine aerator running 11 hrs per day during the overnight hours

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Do you feed pellets? How much?

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I'm a trout guy, I used Cutrine plus on my 1/10 acre pond doing 1/4 of it at a time. This knocked it all down and then I blued the heck out of it. Haven't had any back since, been about a month or so.

I have fat heads, my trout don't seem to eat them but the fatheads sure eat my pellet feed. I feed about 20ozs. a day.

Last edited by timshufflin; 07/06/15 03:43 PM.

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Your 3" rock layer will not prevent weed growth. Time will prove this. You are already having serious FA issues. With trout you have to be very careful using anything with copper as an active ingredient ESPECIALLY if your water has low alkalinity(hardness) less than 50mg/L. Trout are very sensitive to copper in softer water. Are the trout still eating pellets in the warm temperatures?
Have you measured the water temps at 7ft and the bottom?
Any well water inflow?

I see that Aquasphere from Healthy Ponds is a bacterial enzyme blend. Why are you not using it again?

Fathead minnows will not eat FA to any noticeable degree.

Removal of FA does remove accumulated nutrients. I have no idea how many pounds of FA that each 10 pounds of fish food grows. You will probably not ahead of nutrient accumulation but FA removal will help reduce it.

Blue pond dye will help reduce some FA growth in deeper water depending on darkness of the blue and type(brand) of dye.

For a noncopper algaecide control of FA, I would always first remove as much FA biomass as possible then I would try using Phycomycin or Green Clean Pro (peroxygen). It works best as hand spread granules when FA is small,short or in early growth on the bottom. Once the FA gets on top it is usually too advanced for peroxygen products unless a lot of material is used. Then you almost have to resort to using Cutrine Plus (copper product) liquid or granules depending on location and type of the algae. For trout ponds treat only small areas at a time 20-30 ft sections to minimize trout kills.

When fish are being fed daily it is hard to get effective FA control from bacterial and enzyme products. The best of these types of products will IMO come from AQUAFIX www.naturalake.com
They specialize in specialized bacterial and enzyme blends for specific types of problems. They also have a cold water active bacteria (Polar blend).

FA will be a constant problem in a pond water trout raising operation. One thing that will help reduce some FA is to not have too many trout in the pond - lower density results in less feeding and manure and FA.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/06/15 04:20 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bocomo
Do you feed pellets? How much?


No, I have never fed the fish anything.

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Bill, thank you for taking the time for the 'big answer'.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Your 3" rock layer will not prevent weed growth. Time will prove this. You are already having serious FA issues. With trout you have to be very careful using anything with copper as an active ingredient ESPECIALLY if your water has low alkalinity(hardness) less than 50mg/L. Trout are very sensitive to copper in softer water. Are the trout still eating pellets in the warm temperatures?
Have you measured the water temps at 7ft and the bottom?
Any well water inflow?


Our water is pretty hard, 10 grains. I have never fed the trout. In the spring they were having a heyday leaping out of the water for mayflies, etc, looked very healthy, almost kind of fat. Since it got hot I have not seen much activity, but then the FA is full of bugs so they may be feeding below the surface. I don't have the bottom temps but I can get them for you. No well water flow yet, I've been waiting for the water level to drop. We were almost 2' above full pool after the spring melt.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I see that Aquasphere from Healthy Ponds is a bacterial enzyme blend. Why are you not using it again?


I am. I added a new Aquasphere just before I left, so there was a fresh ball in there while the FA was going crazy. This led me to believe that it didn't work with FA. Same with the Pond Clear, I gave it over a week and see no reduction in the FA growth rate.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Fathead minnows will not eat FA to any noticeable degree.


I just got off the phone with an approved Montana hatchery. They recommended 50 dozen FHM for 1/3 acre. They said they would be slow to start but would make a big impact next season??? (he did mention that he is primarily in the bait business, not ponds) Cancel the order?

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Blue pond dye will help reduce some FA growth in deeper water depending on darkness of the blue and type(brand) of dye.


Any that you recommend? I would prefer to avoid the fake blue color.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
For a noncopper algaecide control of FA, I would always first remove as much FA biomass as possible then I would try using Phycomycin or Green Clean Pro (peroxygen). It works best as hand spread granules when FA is small,short or in early growth on the bottom. Once the FA gets on top it is usually too advanced for peroxygen products unless a lot of material is used. Then you almost have to resort to using Cutrine Plus (copper product) liquid or granules depending on location and type of the algae. For trout ponds treat only small areas at a time 20-30 ft sections to minimize trout kills.


OK, I've seen Green Clean. I have no heartburn physically removing the FA. We've already done it once, I just don't want to spend the whole summer wrestling with green slime. So you recommend removing the FA, then hitting the affected zones with Green Clean, then do I come back with Aquafix bacteria?

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
FA will be a constant problem in a pond water trout raising operation. One thing that will help reduce some FA is to not have too many trout in the pond - lower density results in less feeding and manure and FA.


How about if I'm not feeding? Also, my population seems to be pretty steady. Everyone expected a big loss from predators, but I've only seen 1 bald eagle and 1 osprey, and the eagle left without getting a fish (the osprey tried but missed I think). Is ~50 fish too many for 1/3 acre?

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Originally Posted By: timshufflin
I'm a trout guy, I used Cutrine plus on my 1/10 acre pond doing 1/4 of it at a time. This knocked it all down and then I blued the heck out of it. Haven't had any back since, been about a month or so.


After adding dye what is your visibility? Is your pond normally FA free, if so what caused the bloom; or do you have to do this regularly?

Originally Posted By: timshufflin
I have fat heads, my trout don't seem to eat them but the fatheads sure eat my pellet feed. I feed about 20ozs. a day.


Do the fat heads eat any of the FA? The hatchery owner I just spoke to said the trout will eat the new fry, but the adult minnows are too big for trout fish food?!?

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Originally Posted By: Errfoil
Originally Posted By: timshufflin
I'm a trout guy, I used Cutrine plus on my 1/10 acre pond doing 1/4 of it at a time. This knocked it all down and then I blued the heck out of it. Haven't had any back since, been about a month or so.


After adding dye what is your visibility? Is your pond normally FA free, if so what caused the bloom; or do you have to do this regularly?

Originally Posted By: timshufflin
I have fat heads, my trout don't seem to eat them but the fatheads sure eat my pellet feed. I feed about 20ozs. a day.


Do the fat heads eat any of the FA? The hatchery owner I just spoke to said the trout will eat the new fry, but the adult minnows are too big for trout fish food?!?



My pond normally has FA unless I add the blue. I can see about 12" with my blue in the pond and I do it about every three weeks. What causes my bloom? I guess what always causes it, nutrients and sunlight?

MY fat heads never ate any FA. My trout won't eat the fry, the teenagers or the adults. I half wonder if it's because the clarity isn't there to see them.

I do know that I've gotten through two summers with almost all of my trout living. I know of only 4 or 5 directly lost to the heat and low DO that goes with it.


I just got a new pond, I made it twice because I aint so bright.
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Originally Posted By: timshufflin
MY fat heads never ate any FA. My trout won't eat the fry, the teenagers or the adults. I half wonder if it's because the clarity isn't there to see them.


So what is your opinion on FHM? If they don't eat FA and they don't feed the trout, then what? Do they enhance the biological diversity of your pond, is it fun to see schools of minnows in the pond, or do they just increase the nutrient loading in the pond?

I'm really curious because I have an order of FHM that will be delivered on Thursday. The hatchery owner's father just happens to be driving up to the city next to me and can deliver. After Thursday I have to drive 4 hrs one way to get FHM.

Thanks for your input,
Brett

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Are you sure the hatchery said the FHM eat FA. No ones else here reports that FA feeding activity. Since your trout are all naturally fed they will eat some FHM depending on size of trout and abundance of FHM, It is hard to tell how many FHM the trout are eating. Minnow predation could be greater during cold weather.

If you use G.Clean Make sure it is GC Pro. Regular G.Clean is 1/2 as strong as GC Pro. In some areas Phycomycin is cheaper than GC Pro. Yes remove FA then apply peroxygen product liberally. Do some test areas to see how much does the best job. Adding bacterial products a few days after peroxygen can be beneficial.

Keeping the dye fairly dark as timshufflin does may also work for you. Killing lots of algae with algaecide will cause extra DO loss due to algae decomposing. Also using dye esp at higher rates will also reduce natural photosynthesis and less DO produced during the day hours. During cloudy rainy weather low DO could become problematic.


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My neighbors trout pond, very clear artesian fed water, is unable to even keep fatheads because the trout commit genocide on them instantly. You throw 5 gallons in and they are almost entirely gone, NOW. I have now added small mouth to my pond to use the minnows and hope that the smallies will reproduce.

Bill Cody, you think that using bluing and decreasing natural DO outweighs the mechanical production of DO I may have? I have an aerator and fountain running 24/7. I was trying to keep my water as cool as possible while hitting it with mechanical DO production as much as possible. I've been going for super DO saturation to get my trout through the last two summers.

I really don't know if what I've been doing is working because the last two summers have only seen my water get into the low 70's max, not super hot summers. The trout I have lost have all been 24" or better Goldens and one 20" rainbow. The goldens seem to be the most heat sensitive.


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Without taking DO measurements it is hard to be specific as to the amount of DO production of mechanical versus natural aeration. Many things affect natural DO production but the main things are amount of phytoplankton, attached algae, FA, rooted plants and amount of sunshine each day; each contributes directly or indirectly to the daily DO budget or cycle. Fountain will only produce DO to the depth of the intake and bottom aeration will help distribute or circulate the DO and warmer surface water.

The main thing that is working against long term survival of the trout is the steady annual increase of eutrophication which gradually increases the BOD (biochemical oxygen demand) of the overall pond. Increasing BOD is what eventually kills the trout in the deep cold water layer. Numerous factors contribute to the BOD and oxygen budget of a pond.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/07/15 07:22 PM.

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Well I don't have a deep cold water layer so I don't have that to lose. My temps are the same, during the spring through fall, all the way through the water column.

I guess that you're saying that as my pond gets older the sh!t piles high and robs oxygen? I haven't lost any this year and did lose two last year but those were before the fountain.

I'm getting ready to expand this pond again and I will have the new portion over 20' deep. This new portion will have very little water circulation from the aerator as it will be around a dog leg. I'm hoping to mostly keep that area stratified and use it as a "heat sink". This, I'm hoping, would keep a cool area of water right next to an oxygen enriched area that would be essentially "air conditioned" by the deep water.

I don't know if what I'm saying sounds nuts or not but I'm gonna try it.


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I've put a sketch of my pond here. The current pond is in blue and the proposed new water is in green. I have approximate water depths written in and the aerator and fountain are in red designated with both and "A" and a "F".

Hopefully you can see what I'm talking about as far as creating a cold sink to store cold water. Not sure if it will work, if it doesn't I'll still have a bigger pond smile

By the way, I can't really remember the exact length and width as I have written in. I do know that I measured it at 1/10 acre when it was done. It's just a shade larger than that.


Last edited by timshufflin; 07/07/15 08:31 PM.

I just got a new pond, I made it twice because I aint so bright.

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