Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Property Projects & Construction EPA/Legal experts?

The biggest misconception in ideals or belief I have seen is again, something folks in charge at the EPA and other agencies count on...Belief that the rule of law matters, that due process MUST be followed, or, that there even has to be an ACTUAL violation. The EPA has proven, repeatedly, those things do NOT apply to them! The EPA was ordered to stop claiming jurisdiction beyond it's authority, it instead EXPANDED it's authority in direct violation of the US Supreme Court, and nothing stopped them. Now, that over reach has been made an Executive order. The EPA has leadership, back by the enforcing branch of government, that can, will, and IS doing whatever it wants with impunity.

Tony, I truly hope you are right! I have no doubt whatsoever that you try doing everything in your personal and professional life with integrity and thought to how it affects others. But, as a small engine repair shop that works daily with "pollutants" that fall under EPA jurisdiction, plus the new powers they have over your 5 small ponds, along with the belief that you are not someone they'd care about....that makes you a gold mine of opportunity to take every dime and piece of property you have. WE, are easy pickens for the EPA, and they never give us a second thought after they hammer us.

And Snrub guess who is one of the top (if not the top) largest single entity polluter in the entire world? The US Federal Government! The Washington "know-it-alls" need to look in the mirror before they ride in on their high horse sniffing around our private property ponds!

http://ivn.us/2012/04/18/the-number-one-worst-polluter-on-earth-is-the-u-s-federal-government/

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/07/25/us-department-defence-one-worlds-biggest-polluters-259456.html

http://earthfirstjournal.org/newswire/20...worst-polluter/

Rex, you absolutely nailed this part. What was that old line from the TV series? A wise man walks with his head bowed? I subscribe to this philosophy heart and soul.

Everything negative that has been mentioned concerning the new and more powerful EPA could come to pass. I do believe that. But, I also believe in playing the odds. And by my reckoning the odds are in my favor....by a wide margin.

You can build the biggest, meanest, highest horsepower engine possible, but it won't do you any good if there's no tires on the car. This goes back to the HBG example I used earlier. The EPA will continue to make new laws, just like my HBG will continue to reproduce, Drafting a new law isn't the actual problem, just like HBG reproducing isn't the problem....it's dealing with the aftermath that defines our skillset.

With my HBG, I know what to expect and have taken steps to curb any potential issues. In the case of the EPA however, we don't yet KNOW what will happen. I realize many think they know, but in reality, none of us have the answer. All we have is "this is what happened *****", and "back in ***** they did this to ****". And even then, it's always the same few cases over and over. In no way shape or form is this proof of what will happen now. Evidence for possible future action, okay. A sure thing? No way.

As I see it, the unfortunate, uncomfortable truth of the matter is that someone, somewhere, will need to be the guinea pig for this new mandate, PROVIDED this thing ever reaches that state. I'm certainly not convinced that it will, but for the sake of discussion let's assume the worst.

Chances are, very good chance actually, that the poor guinea pig will not be me...I know that's harsh, but it's the truth. Some unfortunate soul's pond will be the proving ground, and from that we will finally be able to gather some idea of what may lie in store, and be able to formulate a response. Until that happens, IF it ever happens, we're guessing and speculating, nothing more.

And I see nothing wrong with that, in fact speculation can be a prudent course of action in and of itself. But I think we should acknowledge the notion that it is in fact, just speculation. Like I said last night, time will tell.

Well I can say one thing for certain, In my lifetime I have never seen the government
get any smaller or less intrusive. And thats almost three quarter of a century.

FWIW here's an approach....If my little puddle ever comes under their gun, I might try to approach things maybe a little differently. I would try to choke them in their own redtape instead of fighting their right to rule. I would hire a smart attorney to petition the court to stay all penalties until the EPA provides proof of a violation. I would have him challenge ever tiny bit, make them provide detailed credentials of the analyst that identified the violation, technical data proving the satelite data is accurate, credentials of the people assessing the accuracy of the the satelite data, banking and audit information of all EPA personnel involved to verify they were not bribed to cause me a problem, EPA family ties to any of the people downstream will require detailed family trees of all involved (how far is downstream?), etc. etc. etc. Keep all the requests for info as ambiguous as possible (sound familar). You get the idea. A huge amount of trite info. They will never be organized or have the manpower enough to comply and provide the info required in the time the judge allows. If they are, well then, what are the credentials of the people that did the family trees, how accurate is that info, etc. etc. etc. Case will never go to court.

Now let's say all the paperwork, motions, etc that causes the headaches for the EPA is published free on the internet for others to use should they come under the gun...

In some Circuit Courts, it's the intern that writes the ruling and the Judge just rubber stamps it as good enough, because he's going fishing and don't want to be bothered

FINnFUR, since a great deal of what we are using to try and illustrate our varying viewpoints has to do with past dealings of big government, I wonder if I might ask for your insight?

Over your lifetime, can you think of an instance(s) where the government proposed sweeping changes, only to encounter stiff opposition? Specifically do you recall the mood on the streets, as it were, regarding those changes? Was there talk of going too far, assurances from folks that this was the end all move, promises that if such legislation passed the country would never recover, and widespread damage would result?

And what was the outcome? How did things play out? Did the future, as foretold by these people actually come to pass?

The mood on the street was pretty mild concerning government policies with banks and making loans to those who had no hope of paying them back, right up until the recent economic crash...

Good luck. They get paid the same while you get charged by the hour.

How about the mood on the street when Roosevelt proposed the Social Security Act? Ruination due to increased taxation? And yet, here we remain.

Or the Great Society Programs enacted by Johnson? Anarchy? Apparently not.

Prohibition....wait, that was repealed. The government actually reversed course, changed their mind. It can happen.

The federal ban on assault weapons in the mid 90's. I remember this one....folks were sure...absolutely sure...that this was the first step towards the govt. coming to their home and seizing all of their firearms. No one came for mine. No boots through the front door.

This is absolutely not intended to be a political turning of this thread. Just a couple examples to try and illustrate how public perception, and fear of new legislation is not always warranted. By the same token, there are also instances where such concern was justified. The point, as I see it, is simply that we don't know. None of us know.

As far as where I stand, I'm probably not so far removed from the majority here. I absolutely believe that the EPA would like control of my water. I also believe that the day will probably come, when they achieve it. But in my opinion, I don't need to begin buying up and hoarding Cutrine just yet.

My point is not that we should panic, but rather that we should not put our heads in the sand. If you do not object within the political process, then you will get what those that do act prescribe. The American Farm Bureau is one place to start.

Reading some peoples posts makes me believe there isn't a regulation they couldn't support. That pushing more and more regulation on their fellow man is ok but to have a different opinion is heresy.

Where exactly is Freedom Indiana....???

Tbar...or ah don't worry about the control freaks stealing our freedoms because they can never enforce it against everybody. Did our founding Fathers say..let 'em steal our freedom and just hope for the best? Heard the same thing about our stolen privacy laws..ah let them listen and record all our cell phone calls without a warrant because they can't listen to everybody's calls.

Freedom lies in the south central portion of the state, nearer the western edge than the middle, neatly divided by US highway 231/67. There's not much to see here, but you'll know you've arrived by the flashing yellow caution light that hangs over the junction of 67 and Arney rd. The sole traffic light, by the way.

You probably won't be impressed with Freedom. No gas stations, banks, convenience marts. We are proud of our automated crossing gate that operates on the railroad track however. It's the only one in the entire county. And, if your eyesight is sharp you may catch a fleeting glimpse of the small sign along the highway declaring Freedom was the home of Babe Pierce....the original Tarzan.

We also have a genuine US postal office. For the time being, anyway. It's days are numbered in a community this small, and we all know it. Probably ought to stop in and look it over during your visit, before it disappears. You might catch Mrs Abrell in there picking up her mail, and strike up a conversation. Course she will be polite, but probably cock her head at you a bit.....you talk funny, and that means you aren't from around here. Ask her how long her family has been settled in this area. Ask her also how the John Deere is running....I service it for her. Have for years.

If she's especially talkative, ask her about Freedom area resident Sammy Davis. Indiana's only living Medal of Honor recipient. You might know him from the movie Forrest Gump. It was his body that Tom Hanks face was superimposed over, during the presentation scene in the movie. The scene itself was real.

If you really want to get a feel for the big city however, you need to continue further down 67 for another 7-8 miles. You'll reach Spencer, the county seat. Population approx. 2400, and home to three of what I think are only five stop lights in the entire county. Be sure and check out the courthouse, with its copper dome. Pause a moment in quiet reflection, at the Doughboy statue on the courthouse lawn. Did I mention that Spencer was the hometown of noted artist, E.M. Viquesney, creator of the statues?

Now for the good part. We'll leave this city atmosphere behind and go for a drive out in the country. There's some folks I'd like you to meet. We're going to take your truck however, as what passes for a county road is enough to make a vehicle's suspension break out into a cold sweat...but I'm sure you won't mind as I know you're curious about sampling the full flavor of where I call home. One more thing, and I've mentioned this here before, when we stop somewhere you stay in the truck and let me do the talking. The folks we'll be paying a visit too out here don't take kindly to outsiders, whether they be governmental in nature, or just an unknown face. They're good people, just wary. They're used to doing things their way, without intervention from anyone. Sound familiar?

After I've broken the ice and made the introductions, you can ask them about the EPA, and government policies, and how they feel their lives will be impacted. Don't be upset when they laugh in your face however. They don't mean it personally, but they're far more concerned about getting the firewood cut, coming up with the money for a couple new tires, and hoping it doesn't rain until they get the garden in...they're counting on that produce to help make it through the winter. For many pond owning residents of Freedom, there are far more pressing concerns than rumors of apocalyptic scenarios, and veiled suspicions. Many here are simply trying to survive.

And on that note, I'm going fishing to try for some BG filets for supper. Not out of fear that I need to get them now while I still can, but just for the simple enjoyment.

I agree.

Freedom sounds like a nice place to live. Freedom is a great concept too... I'm sure you saw the irony I was trying to subtlety point out.

I wonder how Mrs Abrell and other fine folks of Freedom and Spencer would take the news that their ponds and bar ditches were going to be regulated by the goberment. Perhaps the ponds their fathers and grandfathers built decades ago had to come down immediately because they are out of compliance with the new mandated standards.

I don't think these fine true blue American folks with multi-generational ties to the land would just laugh it off........

Since you are so vested in this idea I suggest you volenteer to go to each property in the area and do an inspection. This sure would save the tax payers some money having to hire someone who doesn't know the area......they would just get lost. Besides, you know folks in the area and I'm sure you can make them understand.

Cheers.......I just caught 10 BC and am going in for dinner.

If there were reason to approach my friends and neighbors, I would gladly volunteer. But since I am feeling confident that there will be no local repercussions whatsoever regarding the new EPA mandate, I will refrain from bothering them. Rabble-rousing is frowned upon here.

Nice going on the crappies, I'm sure they will make for a delicious dinner. The bluegills we prepared for supper were outstanding.

The prohibition act? The assault rifle ban? Seriously??

Let's look beyond the original apathy that allowed one of these things passed, and look at what got the latter modified to a delay on only foreign imports of military surplus being banned.

The first, after the apathetic thought that "they" won't really enforce it made "average" people realize just how wrong they were; then the "thug style" enforcement caused the deaths of ten's of thousands of people, private citizen and LEO's, an explosion of organized crime, and especially politicians being killed caused the repeal. It was NOT some sort of epiphany that made politicians realize they'd made a mistake, it was the common person being persecuted and fighting back that caused it.

It was the immediate explosion of assault rifle sales and hording of ammunition (which continues) that made/makes politicians and policy makers realize the same thing would happen if the ban wanted by the anti-gun zealots were to get passed, and enforced.

Any of us can choose the apathetic view of, Oh, it won't effect me", and as long as it doesn't, we can pat ourselves on the back thinking we were right. And if one day someone comes to your door, or you receive that certified letter saying your property is now off limits because of an environmental violation, we can be thankful you didn't rock the boat and only lost our property, and never had to waste a moments thought on preventing it.

Heck, I think I'll drop all my insurance policies that are federally mandated, my business licenses that are required, the 20 or so state permits I need to do business... while I'm at it, I should stop paying my taxes also...I'm too little for them to look at.....

As for social security? 18 TRILLION in debt?

The great society, anarchy? Happened to have noticed riots in Ferguson, MO and Baltimore, MD?? What about the cops being executed in NYC and other places, or attacked in rural MS.....Police are now more worried of being prosecuted for doing a good job when making arrests and enforcing laws than they are for not doing anything when crimes are committed...Yes Sir, all is fine in this "Great Society" of Regulation Nation and entitlements.....just as long as it happens to someone else....

Since we're on the topic of government agencies, I personally wouldn't mind nationalizing motor vehicle registration and safety inspection. A national license plate and inspection sticker would make it much easier for truckers crossing state lines. Transient workers wouldn't have to re-register their vehicle after moving to another state, and I wouldn't be so danged paranoid crossing the state line while returning home after shopping at "Starbuds" in Colorado.

Chillax and enjoy your pond, fellows. I know I am. ............. Our government has a whole lot bigger fish to fry than the ones in your pond.

Yep!

yeah like "if your like your doctor you can keep your doctor"!

gullywasher, "Starbuds" haha lol, I wished they would open those places here. The tree farmers here would cut all the pines down, and grow the stuff in E Texas in the acidic soils where only pine trees grow Heck, I might be able to grow the weed along with the other weeds that grow on my place It might even make my property a better income and with the weed growing I might worry less about the government taking my pond from me and not paying me the thousands of dollars I spent. I might get all that money back, and just say the hell with it. But in the meantime, it is kinda of like telling them "they will take my guns from my dying hand", kinda of the same feeling I have about my pond.

Tracy

I thought of this thread when I cracked open my fortune cookie at lunch and it read "Optimists believe we live in the best of worlds and pessimists fear this is true".

Personally, I guess I'm not seeing much value to this thread so far. It's good to discuss matters. I wish there was a little more meat to the matter. Things like what is the truth behind what the EPA is currently trying to pass, etc.... and what to do about it if you agree or disagree. How do people get apathetic? For one thing, I think it comes about when they hear and see too much, yet nothing is achieved. I wonder how many people have stopped looking at this topic. All this effort could be spent in coming up with a letter to(who ?) and placed in a convenient spot for the forum to print/send to a representative(where/who?). Make it easy for those who want to participate, and those who don't, that's up to them.

I don't think this discussion can be resolved, nor should it be that simple. We all have different beliefs, and that's what America is about. I do feel that people need to have some relief in helping them solve problems when bigger pockets(be it gov't or a wealthier neighbor) create a problem, but the answer should not be allowed to be a blanket statement/law if it's at the cost to even one person.

I've been following this thread and just can't stay out of it any longer. Regardless of whether the EPA intends to come after our ponds or not, we have a HUGE problem with an out-of-control government. The EPA was told twice by the Supreme court that they didn't have the authority. Congress has at least once and I believe twice passed legislation prohibiting this power grab. Yet, an executive order is issued telling the EPA that they can do this. How is this in any way constitutional? The problem is that the Supreme court can rule all they want but the rulings have to be enforced by the executive branch and our inept Congress refuses to defund the government agencies that are out of control.

There is an old saying, "I love my country but fear my government."