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So the urogenital opening is the decisive factor? Where does that leave the different colors on the opercular theory standing?

Not doubting you at all. 2 does appear gravid, do the differences in urogenital orifices manifest themselves that vividly at times other than spawn or pre-spawn?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
So the urogenital opening is the decisive factor?


I would say so, I would say that 80% of the time the urogenital opening also matches other characteristics that we would normally attribute as either male or female in RES. This difference is also easy to see outside of the spawn, go back and look at the pictures I took late last fall, the urogenital differences are still there and very noticeable. The larger the RES, the more noticeable it is.

Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Where does that leave the different colors on the opercular theory standing?


IMO RES have some sort weird dominance hierarchy going on that I have yet to figure out, I have watched it while feeding many times, it seems to become more prevalent as the spawn approaches. The most dominant fish tend to be the most brightly colored, both male and female, they also darken up more during spawning. In general females tend to be a noticeable shade lighter/duller than males, in general they also have thinner colored margins on the ear tab, but there is some overlap between dominant females and subordinate males. I do think that water clarity or the lack thereof also has an effect on how brightly colored the ear tab is. Keep in mind that I currently have just 7" of visibility now.

Every once in a while I do catch a smaller 4-1/2" to 5" RES where looking the urogenital opening leaves me scratching my head, I just assume that I have caught one that has not quite sexually matured yet.






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Sprkplug, I am going to rethink my previous post and just say that there is some definite overlap between male and female characteristics in the opercular appearance. I would not use the the color or appearance of the ear tab as the only cue to sex RES for sorting to put in a single sex pond. Case in point, see the male I caught this morning, the ear tab is very orange in appearance, I am pretty sure that I pulled this male off a bed in my shallow pea gravel area even though I can't actually see the bed right now.








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After catching 250+ RES since the end of March I finally had 6"er take my micro jig deep in the gills. I was sure this one was female looking at the urogenital opening and it looked slightly gravid. The presence of eggs confirmed this one was female.






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I have a lot of experience working with fish (I am a Fish technician at South Dakota State University). I just thought I'd throw in my two cents. It is next to impossible to sex centrarchids outside of the spawn, and during the spawn I don't think there are many very good ways to sex fish unless you can see the eggs, or the fish are spewing eggs or sperm out of the urogenital opening. Visual and physical cues can give you an okay idea towards gender, but I don't think that using just these to determine fish gender will give you 100% success.

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Ryan,
With your experience, can you bring new information to the table that suggests that methods Shorty has worked out have not worked reliably? In other words have you used the size/shape of the urogenital pore in the way he has been using it? What is your experience with using other body traits (opercular flap color or other characteristics)?
Have you hit on a new body feature that you have felt could help distinguish the sexes? If so, we could help you confirm or deny that hypothesis by enlisting the help of the many on this forum who study their RES closely all the time.
You may have more opportunity to sacrifice the fish to check for eggs but many do not have the opportunity to do that in their ponds.
Thanks for chiming in. I bet working together we will find something reliable.

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100% accuracy in determining gender in sunfish is a tough job. Even with BG who have much better sexual differentiation than RES, people still make mistakes. "Sneaks" and even the occasional female BG with scale tipping are where mistakes are made. Telling the difference between sexually mature male and female BG is fairly straight forward most of the time, even outside of the spawn. Is sexing BG foolproof? Nope.

I will say that examining the urogenital openings in RES, plus looking at other characteristics, some of which clearly overlap, one could divide RES into three groups, males, females, and "tweeners" (a not sure group). One could get close to 99% of the male and female groups right by leaving the "tweeners" out of the mix.

Is that good enough for a single sex pond? Probably not, but it would be helpfully if one wanted to target harvesting one sex or the other to skew the sexual balance in a pond. Like mentioned at the beginning of this thread, RES are one of the most difficult sunfish to sex. Of the 250+ pre-spawn RES I have caught this spring, the slight differences in the urogenital opening appears to be the best indicator of sex that I have seen so far. I will say that seeing it in person is much more clear than any of the pictures I have posted.

My RES are in full spawn mode now, the last three female looking RES that I have caught no longer appear gravid. We will have to wait until next spring to put my urogenital opening hypothesis to a test with a fillet knife. I do currently have a large year class of 6" RES that will be larger and prime for checking for the presence of eggs next spring, a fish fry will follow. grin

Ryan, if the water is warm enough during spring break next year you are invited to come down and test my urogenital hypothesis out, I would love to have someone with much more expertise in this area looking at the urogenital differences that I am seeing.

Last edited by Shorty; 06/06/15 08:26 AM.


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Shorty, did you fry up those RES eggs.....mmmm good!


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Shorty, did you fry up those RES eggs.....mmmm good!


Nope, I have never tried fried fish eggs.

A little butter, salt, and pepper??? Any tips?



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We prepare ours same way we fry fish. A light, seasoned breading, fried to a golden brown. Delicious. Watch out though, they tend to pop and explode occasionally, giving the cook a hot oil shower. Put a cover over the oil while frying.

I will deliberately target the female BG that usually hang out in deeper water right off the nesting colony, just so I can get the eggs. Plus, it's population management at work!

Last edited by sprkplug; 06/06/15 08:06 AM.

"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Two likely males from this morning. The latest full moon and numerous GSH fry in the pond at the moment has made catching RES a lot tougher lately. These are the only likely males I have seen in the last week, everything I have caught in the last seven days I have considered to be likely females.

Likely Male #1, this fish was very chunky and caught shallow along a steep clay bank.







Likely male #2, not near as chunky, I am guessing this one has been bedding for at least a week or more, it was caught on my shallow pea gravel area.





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I will have to give fried fish eggs a shot. smile




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Caught 5 small RES (4-6") out of my sediment pond a couple nights ago. In my tiny pre-sediment pond I noticed the last high water event some FHM has swam upstream and got into this "clean" pond. If the water was going to be populated with fish, I wanted to be involved with what was in there. So caught these RES and put in there for breeders. Knew I was not good enough to tell the sex (especially at that small size) so decided if I could catch some would go with a half dozen. Was quite pleased with an hour of fishing right before sundown near the bank like you have been doing coming up with 5. Yesterday already saw the largest (it had a bright red ear tab) was solid on a nest in about 8" of water. Then this morning saw another smaller one look like it was attempting to make a nest. Hope I have at least a couple females!

But also this morning, I saw a half dozen 1-1.5" lepomis right near this second RES. So not only some FHM made it up stream into this pre-sediment pond, either CNBG, GSF or RES also made it. Way too small for me to tell what they were. mad Oh well. I knew it was only a matter of time. At least maybe the RES I put in there will get off a spawn before the smaller fish get big enough to do so.

If I start seeing more of the RES on beds, I may have to try and catch some more to make sure I have females.

Last edited by snrub; 06/06/15 08:24 AM.

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Snrub, look at the urogenital openings. Note, two of these pictures are from last November, one likely male, and one likely female. I will try and get better detailed pictures of the difference.

Likely Males:
o
o








Likely Females:
o
O







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Here is a likely female from this morning that does not appear to be gravid.








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Likely female, this one appears to still be gravid but given the current size of my GSH hatch, it might not be.





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Female and Male BG and RES pic via Greg Grimes




See this old post


http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=177515&page=1



Last edited by ewest; 06/08/15 02:44 PM.















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Likely male from tonight.






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I think male also. That fish appears dark, like it's wearing spawning colors...was it on a nest, or could you tell?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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My dog and my brother in-laws lab were in the pond and muddied it up a few days ago so I couldn't tell if this one came off a nest, but I suspect it was on a nest, my water clarity is currently about 6".
frown

I did catch it in less than 18" of water in my shallow pea gravel area dragging my micro jig across the bottom slowly.



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Here are a couple small "tweeners" for TJ to ponder on. grin

Suspected (non-breeding) male based on the urogenital opening, caught last night.





Suspected female based on the urogenital opening, caught tonight.






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A few more from tonight.

Likely male, impressive ear tab.





Likely female.





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One more from tonight, likely male.






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Went out snorkeling in the pond a couple days ago. Wish I had put scuba on. Took a bunch of video of male BG on the beds and also found one lone RES near my dock that I got some video of. . Three what I assume to be females were moving around near the nest. Did not see any actual spawning, but they must have been close or I was just disturbing their activity. Most of the ones on beds around the 8" size.

Was pretty exciting to see. I've never done any posting video's on u-tube nor have I any experience at editing (lots of boring stuff in between the interesting stuff). Don't know if I will get around to getting any of it posted or not. Some turned out pretty good. Got some 16" CC on video feeding on some fish food I put down on some structure and waited. Hundreds of little BG then eventually three CC showed up. Cool stuff.


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I would love to see your video snrub.

A few more from this morning:

Likely Female:





Likely Male:





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