Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions Bentonite first...Now a Sealing Polymer...?

So we finally built a pond in August of 2012, after making my first post here 5 years ago:

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=15745&Number=198248#Post198248

It came out to about 2.04 acres when at capacity, 13-14 at its deepest. We stocked fish in June 2013. There are 2 auto feeders, and a dual diffuser aerator, multiple placed structures. We are trying to do everything right...


We had the soil tested in multiple areas, all tested good for sealing. Its mostly all black gumbo clay...







As the first year goes by I really felt like there was a leak, but was trying to attribute the water loss to absorption, evaporation, something? After cpmpletely filling up during 2013, the fall and winter of 2013-2014 saw the pond drop to about 3' of total depth. I watched and measured all this time, losing about 1 inch per summer day, 1/2" on cool days...

Same thing happened fall and winter of 2014 into this year. Losing 1/2" of water when the high temp is in the 40's seems to rule out most evaporation.

So when it was low again we decided to try spreading some bentonite to see if it would help. I know it should've been tilled in and compacted for best results, but we didnt want to completely drain and start over...






Same amounts, 1 tablespoon, of bentonite with and without water...






A week after the bentonite, it still seemed to be losing 1/2" per day. That was a month ago, and we've had rain off an on so much that I havent got a new measurement...




Now to the point...lol


Has anyone heard of/have experience with a sealing polymer? A pond store local to me has some and was demonstrating it. Its almost like jello. I've included the pics of the container and labels...Google doesnt return much for Irri Seal...

I think the jury is still out on the polymer. I don't know of any ponds that have used it and have reported back 2+ years later for long term viability.

BUT, I bet I could guarantee that if you don't apply it like the mfg says it won't work either, just like the bentonite.

Was the pond bottom compacted with anything besides tracks on a dozer or excavator during construction?

If not, in all honesty, you might be better off draining it and properly compacting it. Less $$ down the drain and you'd get on track faster. No sense stocking fish until you know that it's sealed, or if you do, do so with the expectation of loosing all the fish to renovate the pond bottom.

The entire pond was built/dug with scrapers. I thought I had read on here somewhere that scrapers would give 100% compaction?

If we did proceed to drain it, the bentonite is already in the bottom now, so we could till and compact it...



That polymer stuff isn't cheap either. $250 for 15 pounds. I believe the guy told me to apply it its just broadcast over the pond. If you look at the label, the recommended amount is based on the turbidity of the water, which I found odd. The guy said the polymer attaches to particles in the water and brings them down to help seal...


In the pic of the bottle above, he sprinkled a little bit (think pinch of salt} in the water, then poked a hole in the bottom side with a knife. Sure enough after a minute or 2, it quit leaking and was holding fine....

I did the same thing with some bentonite and a plastic cup, although I had alot more bentonite in the cup than he used of the polymer...

Were the scrapers filled and used to compact the bottom while not scraping/moving dirt? Scrapers will work, if used that way by a person who is familiar with that technique.

Do the polymer/bentonite test again, this time using a tube that is as tall as your pond is deep. Water exerts approximately 0.5 psi for every foot of water depth.

What seals in a 6" to 8" cup might not seal on the bottom of a 15' deep pond................

One of the most difficult things to do is figure out how to seal a pond that is leaking. Bentonite is a good product but it just about has to be mixed and rolled with the existing dirt. I would say for as much as the polymer cost It might be worth the extra money to get the people that sell the stuff to install it and get them to back it up.

I definitely agree with the pressure being higher deeper in the pond...Of course I dont have a 13' tube to test it in either...I guess I could rig a container and pressurize it to 6 psi with air....



Mike, I left my number for the main guy to contact me, but i haven't heard from him yet. If they would guarantee it to be sealed or money back, I'd have no problem having it done...Of course if it really worked like they said, it should be selling like gold around here then....



I'm somewhat surprised that no one has chimed in with any personal experience with it yet...

I have used a linear polymer on a seeping 1/3 ac pond of mine this Spring - but I know nothing about your specific product. I have spent $3500 total on two occasions draining and trying to reseal the clay to cure with weighted backhoe with no success. I applied $400 of polymer, it apparently found the leak, and has sealed it for 4 weeks. I know...I'm waiting for failure, too.

I have not reported anything yet because I'm still leery of the "silver bullet" product. I figured if this worked, Mike Otto would have learned of it long ago, and in turn we'd have read something from him over the years. This product has been used for the last decade but only in commercial applications - not in a pond/lake setting - so that might account for the lack of research/reports. I wanted to try this so I could possibly introduce it to guys like me who have expensive seepage issues. If this cures my leak, I'll save at least $1000 in electric annually having to supplement leak with my well. Over the course of my life it could end up being a $40,000+ return on my $400 investment. I hate to be skeptical, but it sounds too good to be true.

I am planning on posting a video of my experience and sharing with the forum, but first need to educate myself to a greater degree so I can address questions intelligently and provide the most accurate information possible. I also need to clear it with Bob and Mike before I start flinging product names around and ensure it's ok.

Frankly, I never mentioned anything prior to my experiment because I was 99% certain it wouldn't work due to the ease of application and affordable price. Just didn't add up. Yet, to date I've been happily surprised and cautiously optimistic. I read a case study where this specific product sealed a mining pit constructed mainly of gravel. That really caught my attention - so I decided to try.

That is my concern with draining it and trying to seal. I've been told there would be no way to pinpoint where it was leaking...




About the polymer, awesome, I have questions...LoL...


What was the name of it, or do you know the ingredients?

Where did you get it, and how did you find out about it?

How many pounds of polymer did you get for $400?

How did you determine the amount of polymer to use?

How did you apply it?

Did you apply it with the pond full, or down some?

On a calm or windy day?

How deep is your pond?

How much water were you losing daily?

Where are you located?



Im with you on the too good to be true part...If it really works as described and people knew, I dont think they could keep it stocked here...We had people stopping by when we were spreading the bentonite to ask all about it...

Jxxxx
I feel your pain

I've used bentonite also
Drained the pond re-cored my dam and compacted the bottom
It's still drain down


Lastly I orederd 300 lbs of polymer I have a source @ 2.75 per pound
The pond drained down to 3' so I tilled the polymer around the edges and most of the bottom
The remaining water in the pond I just sprinkled it in

Along with tilling in the polymer and I ordered 80 tons of Pond silt
The Pond silt was only $250 per 20 ton truck load
check your local quarry it's fine silt when they process gravel

So after 3 long years it finally looks like it's holding
Although the jury is still out I won't report success until we have a long hot summer
If you would like to private message me I will pass along my contact for the polymer

On another note I spoke to a friend who dug two ponds, he told me the first three years they filled and drain down to nothing now they're holding fine maybe I'm just a little impatient

This polymer can be applied to established ponds at full pool or during construction making it quite versatile. Now it just needs to hold.

In the past 30 years, everything under the sun, in the books and from the coffee shop has been tried. Most of the time with good success. The plastic liner is great----Only ripped one of them during construction.
The clay liner with material from on the property, has been good when the clay was good, and installed properly. The better the clay the better the pond held water.
Bentonite is also great ---there are different grads of this product some swell 18 times their size when hydrated some only swell 4 times their dry size. BUT never has the results been good without proper installation.
Any new product that comes up has been tried, and always looking for Anything new.
Fed livestock in the bottom have had some good results and some not so good results. Some ponds that looked good did not do well but after a few rains they held well. One of the worse ponds that was ever built has ended up being full most of the time.
Do not give up every situation is different continue to keep everyone posted so we can all learn.

TJ, come on and give it up, Name and contact. Looks like you have one of the two approvals here. And I bet the other will give a blessing soon. In the meantime I have a small leak and may have an application for it. I have access to Bentonite @ wholesale pricing and I work with it and polymers everyday,(OUTSIDE THE POND INDUSTRY) But to come across one that can be added to full pool and it finding the leak, that sounds very interesting. I am always looking for something better and I am not familiar with this one. And thanks for reporting your experience here. And polymers are much easier to work with over Bentonite.
Tracy

I am curious if the polymer has an impact on spawning. Specifically, will the papa fish mind making a nest with the polymer there, will it impact egg/fry development and will nest building (digging holes) create leaks in the polymer coated surface over time?

That may be part of the difference between "sprinkling it in the water" and "tilling it in and compacting it".

Sorry guys, I'm not trying to tease anyone here, but I need to get with Mike and Bob before I start popping off. I just wanted to mention I'm working with it, and may hopefully have a solution to present soon. I also need to learn a lot more about the product before I start offering any advice - it's not a solution for everyone - and it may not have even worked for me long term. Excessive organic material/silt and vegetation impacts its' efficacy significantly - so I need to learn about that before I start recommending it. It might end up being a solution for newer ponds only - I need to learn more about this. I believe early Spring and late Fall are probably the best application times when vegetation isn't established - so application now for most of us isn't ideal anyhow. Lastly, I'm trying to work out a discount for PB members - this isn't proving easy - but I'm working on it.

Product must be applied on a very low wind day - windy days will pool the product on downwind side, can suffocate fish. Low winds allow the product to sink in the area of the leak. If area of leak isn't known, full pond treatment is necessary, obviously. Work pond back and forth applying 4 oz product at a time, which covers approximately 10 sq ft. Skimping on product application to save money often backfires and won't solve the issue. These are all things I have learned personally and can relate - I elected not to follow instructions and do it my way, which likely doesn't surprise anyone here. I applied on a windy day, and lost some FHM. I also tried to skimp on application amount, and had to reapply as it didn't address the leak. If instructions are followed and one employs some patience, one can apply to a full pool pond, full of fish, and treat the leak in the amount of time it requires to cover the area of the leak without any mortality. Product is not toxic to fish, but again it can suffocate by pooling on windy day.

I needed this miracle product a few years ago TJ. Hind sight I'm glad we just tore out dam and did it the correct way.

Before I promote or discuss a product that may directly compete with with a paid PB advertiser - those folks who help provide the forum and keep it free - I think it should be cleared with the owners, who are both good friends. They deserve at least that much, in my mind.

Secondly, prior to advising anyone on how to solve a problem, I feel compelled to become well versed on all it's characteristics so I can provide a more informed and accurate answer on questions that might be raised.

I'm not sure why you're apologizing - I don't think there's a reason to apologize, unless I'm totally missing something, which is entirely possible - it happens all the time. I've merely chosen to follow personal standards/protocol when it comes to this matter, and am trying to help the forum with an in depth, hands on study on the proper application and efficacy of the product - and if it works, trying to get a PB discount for forum members. From this side, it sure feels like pro Pond Boss forum efforts.

TJ,

Waiting patiently for the details. I really need to do something to my pond. Down 3'+ since full again last September. Granted we are down on our rainfall which isn't helping.

My friend had a 1 ac pond built last Spring, filled about 75% last year, and with the mega rain we just had [7-12"] it filled and then some. He discovered a leak beneath the spillway - small rivulet, but obviously super distressing. Contractor did install anti seep collars, but water was still seeping through along the pipe somehow.

This same friend is the one with whom I shot the video for the polymer application, and I offered him some of my leftover product. He packed the area of the rivulet with clay, then applied the polymer. Checked today and while the water level remained static, the leak was stopped.

So, that's some more good news. Again, however, I would like to learn how long these seeps remain fixed on average so we know what we're getting into long term solution wise.

I'd like to know if it's been applied to ponds over 2 years ago, and if they are still holding water.

It's one of my primary questions also...requesting some case studies or idea of average life of fix.

TJ keep us posted==== most of the phone calls that come in have to do with leaky ponds. I am praying that there is a solution with good results that does not cost as much as a liner.

I am going to call you as soon as Lusk provides me the all clear to discuss on forum...we need to talk long and hard about this. I'm headed out to treat a client's pond now and will relate my experience to the forum. I'll call you this weekend or early next week.

I was going to polymer my pond, but the vegetation problem got in the way. I suppose I could put in seme grass carp to strip it clean first, but how do you easily get them back out? I could nuke the plants from orbit and wait for them to decay, but leaves on the bottom may still be a problem. It does seem like a new pond product to me.

Anyhow our ponds leak problem has slowed to a tolerable level, but I am definitely watching this story. A few folks near me could use this product.