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As some of you have read in other posts I am looking at the possibility of a smallmouth bass pond in the New York state.

I have been doing a lot of research on the possible forage species involved and then started thinking about how to stock them once I decided on what fish would be there.

My question is, if you had the following forage on your draft board (I know, NFL draft humor...the Jets had a great weekend LOL) how would you add them to the pond?

I was thinking something like this:

Year One:

Lake Chubsuckers - I want these guys to have a significant head start on everything else, because I want a sizable breeding population of bigger chubs by the time smallies get in here.

Year Two:
Grass Shrimp - although I have no idea what species would be good this far north.

Papershell Crayfish - which aren't always available, but I had considered "farming" my own while the chubs were doing their thing during year one.

Bluntnose Minnows - again, the same as the crawdads, I was going to source a small number and see if I couldn't turn them into a swarm and add them in year two.

Year Three:
Golden Shiners - I don't want to give them a huge head start on the smallies, but I would like to have them up and spawning at full speed by the time the bass get in there.

Year Four:
Pumpkinseed Sunfish or Yellow Perch? - I'm still weighing the pros and cons of these guys? The piscivorous nature of the perch vs the hard to swallow shape of the sunfish? Any thoughts will always be read and considered.

Smallmouth Bass - Obviously these guys go in here. This is the whole point of having this pond is to be able to catch nice smallies.

Sorry for the long winded post, I am just trying to figure out the best way to do this. As you can see, I don't mind waiting to have bass in the pond. I have patience, I just want to make sure that it gets done correctly.

Is there anything that you think I missed that could be good for the pond?

Is there a certain species of frog that might be more valuable than another?

Thanks for all the help.

Ronald

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It's up to you, but I don't believe you need to space out forage base establishment over such a long period of time. Since I wouldn't want to wait 5-6 years until I catch some good sized fish, I'd stock the LCS, BNM, PK Shrimp, and crays in the same year, allow the LCS a year to spawn. Consider stocking a smaller shiner species, like the Spotfin, instead of GSH. If they don't take, you can stock adult GSH and establish a population down the road. Once your LCS spawn in year 2, consider stocking your panfish and allow it all to simmer until year 3.

I would recommend RES over PS - better companion species for SMB. Fishery studies consisting of SMB/PS showed the SMB could not effectively manage the PS, they overpopulated and stunted. The RES is more suited to your climate, grow larger, and are far less fecund and likely won't serve as a management issue.

You can stock your lepomis species in year two, maybe following the LCS spawn to just be safe.

Year three you could stock your YP and SMB in the Fall. Consider getting pellet trained fish to take pressure off your forage base. No reason you can't manage SMB, YP and RES together - I do in my primary fishery and have trophies in each species.

Sounds like a great project, right up my alley. PM me if you want to bounce anything off - I've been doing the SMB/YP/RES/WE/HSB thing for several years and manage many other fisheries that are similar - am happy to help in any manner possible.


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Teehjaeh57,

I am living in Georgia, but this is for a pond in New York. I didn't think that the Redears could make it that far north? This is why I was thinking Pumpkinseeds.

I don't mind waiting for five years. I am weird in that I can be happy watching my forage multiply. I know that is weird. I just want to make sure that the Chubsuckers and the Shiners take hold and don't get obliterated. I'm worried more so about the Chubsuckers because I really REALLY want them in my ponds.

I'm hoping not to feed pellets at all. I know that I can't have the type of fishery that a pellet guy would, but I would like to avoid it if I could.

Thank you for weighing in on this.

I am always worried about the Yellow Perch's ability to make babies. Could you give your opinion on this? I think that perch are delicious and I like fishing for them, but the goal is a pond full of good sized smallies. I want to be able to spend my afternoons catching nice sized (fat three or four pound) smallies. I don't have any illusions of a world record. I just hope that I can have a heavy population of NICE smallies.

Thanks!

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Hi Ronald

Sorry, I thought this was for a GA fishery, I obviously neglected to read the first sentence of your post carefully. I was excited you were flying in the face conventional wisdom in LMB country! I'm still excited, though - I love the ground floor of new projects.

What size pond are you working with here?

Strongly consider replacing GSH with SFS at least initially - I think you'll appreciate the results. You can always add GSH later if SFS don't establish self sustaining population.

Allow LCS at least one season to reproduce before adding SMB or YP. Maybe two - Travis is our expert LCS guy he can hopefully chime in. He's got a nice population going in at least one pond now, but I think it did take a couple years with no predation.

I would stock all forage at once allowing them all the opportunity to spawn multiple times prior to predator stocking.

NY is out of range for RES, but bear in mind PS will likely stunt and you'll have a dense population of 4-6" PS. Your SMB will benefit, but you're also filling significant carrying capacity with PS too large for SMB to eat, and not large enough to interest anglers and might be too small to harvest/fillet. That means less room and resources for SMB to grow. Just something you should be aware of.

Consider HBG as a companion panfish species - they will grow larger providing better angler return and allows for harvest/fillets, and since 97% of offspring are Male, you should have an easier time managing their population. Their gape allows them to be pisciverous, so they will impact forage base more than a PS would - just so you're aware.

Bill Cody will likely have some good feedback on YP angle, but I think they'd be a good addition to this fishery. YP will be vulnerable to average sized SMB even up to 6-7" - which could be an age 2 or 3 fish depending on growth rates up there, so my hunch is their population won't serve as a management issue. They will also primarily forage on your minnow/shiner population however - just be aware.

SMB/YP/HBG will grow up to 300% faster on some supplemental feeding program and it helps feed your forage base, too - which results in more robust spawns. It's entirely your call, just wanted you to be aware that a high quality feed can help increase carrying capacity of a fishery and also help relieve pressure off your natural forage base.

SMB/YP/PS fishery can certainly be done if your heart is set on it - just be aware you'll likely either have a stunted PS population, or will need to manage it intensely through angling, trapping, seining, etc. Sounds like a cool project.


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How big is the pond?. This will have an impact on "afternoons catching nice sized (fat three or four pound) smallies". The larger the pond the more chance there will be more numbers of the larger bass. It is a carrying capacity type of thing. Predominance of larger bass will be difficult in a smaller pond without pellet feeding. I think for non-pellet fed ponds having only occasional visitor management one should expect one to two pound smallies due to too much smallie reproduction, not enough monitoring and frequent mgnt and them tending to overeat the food source, i.e. too crowded.

If you could control or prohibit the SMB reproduction then the plan would be much easier to achieve the goals.

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I have been wondering so this is as good a place as any to ask the question.....Using this thread as an example....Would the pond be easier to manage if only FHM are stocked as a starter forage knowing they will eventually disappear? Leave out the other forage minnows. Wondering whether this would force the YP to target the SMB and PS spawn while the SMB target the YP and PS spawn. With a well established population of say SFS are you setting yourself up for a PS over population as the YP and SMB will ignore the PS and target the more favorably shaped minnows?

I wonder if this is at least one of the reasons the Illinois DNR recommends against stocking any minnows in small ponds. Can lead to a quicker overpopulation of SF?

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The size of the pond will obviously have to do with available resources, but its not going to be small. My guess is less than ten acres, but absolutely more than five acres.

It will come down to how much dirt we want to move and how much we want to disrupt the landscape. There is a virtually unlimited amount of water.

My brother also wants to consider the shape of the pond and possible building sites in case he ever needs to cash in on it. I think that is a smart idea, but it will probably affect the size of the pond somewhat.

My best guess is that we're going to end up with about 8 acres.

Does anyone know on average, how much it costs to pellet feed an 8 acre pond over the course of a year? If its something that isn't going to be like a car payment it would be considered. As I read more it seems like that is the fastest way to improve your pond.

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teehjaeh57,

Don't worry about it. I skim through posts all the time.

I don't want to add hybrid bluegill because I am worried about them finding their way back to some b*st*rd*z*d variety of green sunfish LOL.

I will do more looking into the yellow perch situation.

I completely agree with having the Lake Chubsuckers in the pond with no predation for a few years. I have read that the chubsuckers reach maturity in their third year. So, I want to be sure that the first batch spawns before I put the bass in. I figure that if there are a full batch of them spawning before the bass get there, they will probably have established themselves well enough to avoid being eradicated.

On a side note, I have given a lot of thought to doing the same smallmouth project in Georgia, but with the availability of threadfin shad it would make things much easier IMO.

Even if I had to add a handful of hybrid stripers to control shad populations. That would be okay too.

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You have better chances of growing more larger SMbass in 8 ac vs 0.7ac. With 8 ac your main management hurdle will be maintaining the proper numbers of SMB (selective harvest) to skew the population toward larger individuals which means fewer larger bass vs more smaller bass. Fewer bass per ac will also allow better bass growth rates.

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Bill Cody, the good thing is that they're delicious LOL. Neither of us have a problem taking them out of the pond. Ha ha ha!

What do you guys think is a good goal to try to shoot for as far as an avergage size smallie to catch?

I could be thrilled catch two to three pound fish on average.

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You can do HBG but you need to stock pure adults from time to time to keep genetics from reverting to GSF per Cody's/Tony's advice in previous threads. I am a big HBG believer now, thanks to guys like Bruce Condello and Tony Livingston. I urge you to stick around, read copiously, and see if your attitudes don't change. There's no right or wrong here, but you may come around like I did.

If you decide to go PS, and you're at 8 acres, you can consider stocking HSB and WE to help trim PS numbers. YP will also feast on YOY PS, that will help. My SMB, HBCP, HSB, WE, YP help keep my BG population managed to a degree, so it absolutely can be done, but you'll have to provide additional PS management techniques to get there. Additional species have different hunting preferences and can help provide a more comprehensive approach to management. OK, this last part I think just sounds like a solid justification to anyone who wants to know why you're spending $ on ladder stocking WE and HSB annually...it worked for me at home, anyhow!

Supplemental feeding program on an 8 ac lake I would advise a client to install at least 2, if not 3 feeders, throwing at least 50# a monthly. Monthly cost would be $100-$120 for 3 feeders. NY feeding window I'm guessing at mid April through mid October - so rough cost annually is $600-$700. I feed 50# on my 2.5 ac pond monthly and my apex predators are all robust with ample additional forage available. If PS populations are getting dense, you can slow down or stop feeders for a period of time until you witness population thinning.

If your SMB stocking density is low, say 25-30/ac, I think you could easily have an average size of 2.5-3.5#. Bill identified it's important to keep SMB recruitment low, or manage their population selectively so you don't limit resources and therefore top end size. Keep thriving fish present - remove or harvest anything that isn't.

I think YP will perform well here, and your fishery could also host HSB and WE if that interests you. Ladder stock the latter two species.


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Can he control SMB numbers by managing available SMB spawning habitat? Or in the absence of LMB will they have no trouble spawning on silt?

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I didn't realize that the cost of feeding was so low. I couldn't imagine not doing it now.

I don't want even the most remote possibility that green sunfish could ever be in my pond. So, hybrid bluegill are out for me. Plus, they aren't going to be good forage for the smallies. I don't see any use for them for me. They would just be something else to take up space and have to feed in the pond.

I have considered hybrid stripers as a form of threadfin shad control in a southern pond, but like the hybrid bluegill, I don't want them in my northern pond.

The walleye, I like catching when I go to Ontario on fishing trips, but not enough to want them in my pond. I would like having the smallies as the top predator with no competition from other species.

If I go with yellow perch I wouldn't add the pumpkinseeds at all. So, there won't be any worry about that. Its going to be a one or the other type thing. I will pick whichever one my research leads me to believe is the better option and that is where we will go with it.

I read an article someplace that said that a smallmouth bass pond could do well with just smallies and shiners in it. Does that even come close to resembling truth? I didn't believe that it could be possible, but with the high reproduction capabilities and the top end size of the golden shiner, could it be?

Thanks for telling me about the cost of feeding. I feel silly for having thought it would be more expensive than that.

Ronald

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""I read an article someplace that said that a smallmouth bass pond could do well with just smallies and shiners in it."" This is generally true but the top end size of the SMB will be more like 13"-15" not the 17" to 19" smallies that are your goal. Are you considering establishing pond dwelling crayfish for the smallie pond? This is the northern pond correrct?

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Bill Cody,

As my research has led me so far, I plan on having the following forage species:

Bluntnose Minnows
Fathead Minnows
Banded Killifish
Lake Chubsuckers
Golden Shiners
Papershell Crayfish

I haven't found out what variety, if any, of grass shrimp would be good in New York state, but I think that they would be great in this pond.

I'm hoping that this will be a good base for the foodchain and I am really hoping to only add one more larger prey item for the bigger smallies.

Any help or advice that you could give would be appreciated.

I am planning on establishing whatever vegetation and structure would be beneficial for the forage species listed. I want the smaller forage (excluding perch or sunfish) to have virtually unlimited spawning areas and a lot of areas that provide cover and a large quantity of insect larvae as well.

I know that this is a lot of information, but there is a lot of planning that goes into this (as you well know)

Thanks
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Originally Posted By: therapist

I haven't found out what variety, if any, of grass shrimp would be good in New York state, but I think that they would be great in this pond.


P. kadiakensis? AKA PK shrimp?

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=177552

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Originally Posted By: Bocomo
Originally Posted By: therapist

I haven't found out what variety, if any, of grass shrimp would be good in New York state, but I think that they would be great in this pond.


P. kadiakensis? AKA PK shrimp?

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=177552


Thanks for the link.

I have some feelers out to some people that have better information on this than I do. Some of my friends have ponds in Ohio and if the grass shrimp survive their winter I think that they will survive mine too. I will see what they have.

This whole northern pond thing should really have its own manual. Maybe when I am done with all of this and I catch my first five pound smallie I will write one.

In the mean time, I am documenting all my research so hopefully if I eff up I can at least feel like I tried my hardest LOL.

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P. kadiakensis survive cold temps. Have self sustaining populations in all my ponds. They are the only species available suitable for cold seasons.

Looking for a larger prey item for SMB? GSH grow 8-10". It would require a 4-5# SMB to utilize as prey item. Per my previous posts, YP serve as excellent forage for SMB, and are a great species on their own merit IMO. Those that escape predation from SMB have a great chance to grow to be trophy fish 13"+.


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Here is another thread.

PA shrimp


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Thanks for the link snrub, but if the PK Grass Shrimp are okay for colder temperatures then they will be my go to choice.

Thanks teehjaeh, I will start researching what type of vegetation and what not that they thrive in. I'm going to try to do this right the first time around. It would be nice to have a whole thriving system of forage by the time the smallies hit the water.

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Consider RBS as opposed to HBG. They're not as fecund as PS but reach a similar size. They're also more fusiform meaning SMB can more easily prey on them.

It takes LCS 3 years to mature at about 6"-8" in size. Just an FYI if wanting them to spawn first before stocking predators.

I would also highly recommend eastern silvery minnows(ESM). Mine have been doing great. I stocked 17, two years ago and have thousands now. So far they are handling predation well.

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CJBS,

Thanks for the advice on the Eastern Silvery Minnows. I will research them and see if I think they fit my goals.

I will also look into the Redbreast Sunfish. If they are a better fit than the other contenders they will get the nod.

I did my research on the Lake Chubsuckers and I understand how they work. This is why I wanted to put them in the pond four years ahead of the smallies. This way I can be certain that they will have spawned a few times and the the first generation of offspring will be mature and my original stockers will be out of range for predation by the new smallies. I really hope that they are able to hang on and survive in the pond.

I am a little disappointed that everyone has said that I won't be able to establish brook trout in my pond. I had read an article that trout were the ideal forage for putting calories and nutrition into a bass.

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You're so against YP but not brook trout. Brook trout would compete with your smallies much like YP, maybe even more so. That is if you could get them to survive year round and reproduce. Nothing says you can't seasonally stock brook or rainbow trout.

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I understand that CJBS. It would be nice to get them to survive and reproduce, but I don't think that it's going to happen.

I'm not against yellow perch because they're yellow perch. I worry about them the same way that I worry about bluegills. I just don't want them to breed like wild fire and create problems.

These posts are just me bouncing ideas around. I'm just searching for knowledge. Its not my goal to rile anyone up.

I will eventually get it figured out. I just get scared to pull the trigger sometimes. I'm not OCD, but I know that if I put a species in the pond and then later decided that I didn't want them in there, I would battle them day and night until they were gone and would probably end up having to hit the reset button on the whole operation. Its just how I am.

So, in the spirit of trying to get it right the first time, please bear with me. I'm new and I'm learning.

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YP have less chance of over populating than BG due to YP are more fusiform and easier to catch and eat for SMB & LMB. Also YP inhabit areas more similar to the feeding areas of bass than BG. BG being more open water fish and YP more a close to bottom oriented fish where bass often hunt for food. A strong population of SMB can easily limit the numbers of YP. Reduce the bass population and YP numbers increase. Fry of YP are consumed by shiners and panfish. High numbers of shiners can limit recruitment of YP. Again community composition is based on some sort of management balance.

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