Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Do Golden Shiners eat enough eggs to matter???

I have been reading some posts on here about not stocking golden shiners. People say that they are egg eaters. I believe that they do eat eggs, but wouldn't a bass just crush one when it came into the nest?

How many eggs can these things really eat?

Don't the benefits of having them as forage outweigh the egg loss?

Ronald

Folks more knowledgeable than I will post shortly I'm sure, but based on what I've read there's 2 issues - one would be if you have a species of fish that is less and/or not attentive to the eggs - YP for example - and also the question of the number of GSH harassing the nest for those that have attentive parents. If you have a glut of GSH they're bound to do some damage. But I would assume it'd have to be a fairly large number per acre?

I am NOT in the "don't stock golden shiner's" camp! GSH are, IMO, a great forage fish and though they may steal some eggs and compete with some species for other foods, the net result will be better apex predators with, than without GSH in the mix.

If GSH steal some LMB eggs, what is the down side? The LMB take a year or two longer to overpopulate AND have lots of size ranges of GSH to eat?? Hardly a downside from my point of view!

Thanks for the replies guys.

I would be interested in hearing how the do with raiding smallmouth nests. I have seen largemouth defend a nest, but I don't have a lot of experience with smallies.

I also know that smallies are not as highly reproductive as largemouth.

I am learning a lot here.

The biggest issue with GSH in stocking combinations not involving LMB is two fold and is based on giving GSH too big of a head start on the predators.

First, is an over abundance issue. Let's just say you stock 2 pounds per acre of of mid size GSH, you're looking at about 80 or so GSH per pound, that's 160 GSH. If they go in before your predator fish, they will likely see high survival rates. They also are likely to spawn and prolifically. Since no predators are present yet, it's likely huge numbers of the GSH newly born in your pond will survive, thousands very likely.

Then you stock your SMB at the typical 4-6" range. By then, those thousands of GSH are too big for these newly stocked SMB to prey on. They will likely remain too big for the SMB to ever prey on... Throw in the original stockers and you now have thousands of GSH too big to be preyed on. In LMB ponds this isn't such an issue as LMB mouths are much larger, LMB grow much bigger and do so much faster. SMB and HSB, have smaller mouths and especially for SMB slower growth rates and maximum size.

Unfortunately, GSH are effective predators in their own right at larger sizes and will gladly eat many other species' eggs and fry. Species that are likely better forage options for the SMB and HSB, even WE... Larger invertebrates(grass shrimp, small crayfish, dragonfly larvae, etc), other Cyprinid species which don't get too large such as FHM, BNM, ESM and SFS. Other species of forage like BKF and LCS. Most of these fish species simply broadcast their eggs with no parental care or protection and all have vulnerable fry, easy food for oversized ravenous GSH present in large numbers.

Second, GSH regularly reach 6 or even 8 inches. A size too big for most SMB and HSB to prey on. You could end up with GSH taking up huge amounts of biomass in your pond and no predators large enough to prey on them. GSH can live 6-8+ years. It's gonna take a long time for that original glut of GSH to die off...

Personally, I feel GSH should be treated similar to GSHAD in LMB pounds when stocked into SMB only or in combination with HSB. GSH should only be stocked after 25%+ of SMB are 14" plus and HSB if stocked are 18"+.

At that time stock 1-2 pounds of the largest brooder GSH you can source per acre. These GSH should be in the 5"+ range and just a hair too big to be effectively preyed on by the largest SMB and HSB in your pond. You get a good brood stock of GSH established without a glut of biomass hogging, egg and fry eating, bait stealing pains... You also allow your less aggressive, smaller forage species a chance to establish and a better chance to maintain a self sustaining population.

A 5" shiner is too big for smallies?

A 1 pound largemouth will eat 5" shiners until he pukes all over himself. I never imagined that smallies couldn't do the same.

I have seen a 6" SMB puke up a 3" GSH, the tail was actually folded over.

CJBS, I just don't see your scenario with GSH happening. Yes, shiners get to 6-8"...the larger size is the reason they are used as a forage species. FHM are great for juveniles; GSH are for intermediate and adult size fish. Once reaching the one pound range, SMB can most definitely eat an 8" GSH, and will, in large numbers!

Growing a massive forage base before stocking predators IS the idea. Yes, after spawning, there will be 1000's of GSH too big to be eaten, but what about the hundreds of thousands of smaller GSH that are also there to be eaten???

Bluntnose and Fathead minnows are great forage for juvenile predators, yet do little for them after reaching 8" or so. Whether or not Spotfin Shiners, Lake Chubsucker, or other forage species are "better", I don't know, as those species are not easily, or readily available to anyone for stocking. There is theory, but not enough empirical data to know. What little IS known, supports the idea that a wide variety of many forage species is a good thing.

Waiting till predators are adults would make it much more expensive, but difficult, if not impossible to establish GSH, or ANY other forage base.

I have never heard of GSH stealing so many SMB eggs that there is not still a significant annual SMB recruitment. TJ has a boatload of GSH in his SMB production pond...and also got a lot of SMB recruitment. So many GSH, I caught more GSH fishing a jig than SMB.

If anything, I would personally consider GSH stealing eggs and YOY SMB a good thing. It delays over population and stunting of the apex predator, and arguably, only the best genetics survive.

I stocked Golden shiners in my lake in the spring before my SMB in the fall, and now have huge schools of large shiners. I've watched these schools of GSH swarm RES nests like swarms of bees while the RES could only stand by and watch helplessly. I've not seen any SMB nest site yet but it makes me second guess the GSH stocking.


-Greg

I'll be observing the FHM/GSH/RES/YP/LCS/SMB combination at some point, but have not yet added the SMB. I just want to give the forage a year or two to build up. I started with pretty low numbers.

The GSH and FHM that I stocked in my pond have had a 3yr jump on any predators. Shrimp, bluntnose minnows, and spotfin shiners had a one year jump. The schools of GSH will literally stretch nonstop across the dam which is 200'.

I just stocked the predators this spring. 50lb adult YP, 100 4-6" YP, 800 4-6" BG, 200 4" RES, 50 7-9" HSB, 50 4" LMB, and 150 12"+ RBT. We keep all trout that are caught for food...should be depleted by early June.

The RBT, YP, HSB, and BG are hitting pellets hard...but also will see them busting top of water hitting shiners. Shiners still get right in the middle of them hitting pellets though.

The GSH population exploded in pond W/O predators. I do not regret stocking them...should see tremendous growth out of other fish that just went into pond

My guess is that in about a year those Hybrid Stripers and the Largemouth are going to have a feast year.

I have never seen a shiner so big that a two pound bass couldn't eat it.

I won't say that the occasional shiner doesn't get enormous, but I would think that 99% or more of the shiners on earth are under 8" long.

Depending on location a 1 yr old LMB @ 12 inches would have a hard time eating a 10 inch GSH , so would a 2 yr old 16 inch LMB. So would 1 -2 yr old HSB.

An easy fix (if you think you have a GSH egg eating problem) is to stock some 1 yr old LMB rather than just 2 inch yoy LMB.

Thanks for the advice ewest.

I know that I won't have a shiner problem in my largemouth pond...especially not in Georgia.

I was thinking more about the repercussions of shiners in a smallie pond in New York.

So, there unless someone comes up with a way to neuter/spay largemouth, I will never be putting any largemouth in that pond.

Ronald