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#408360 04/18/15 08:03 AM
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Well for some reason I am calling it dumb luck the original minnows we stock the pond with Emerald shiners from a bait store have managed to re populate in our pond. I understand this is not quite normal for a small pond.

When I was first wanting to stalk the pond I dropped into this site and was flooded with great information. I learned I needed to add my minnows first and give them a years time and when I do stock predator fish to stock pellet trained fish so they lay off the minnows that much longer so they can re populate.

I learned from Bill Cody that Yellow Perch like a challenge when catching minnows or the fact that if the minnow is quick it has a better chance of survival in a pond with little cover. So off to the bait shop to get as many Emerald shiners we could load into our big rubber made totes.

The first stocking minnows we had 50/50 Emerald shiners and common shiners three years ago. These common shiners really showed the color on the top as emerald but did not have the tail or larger eye. More of a square tail smaller eye and seem to be a bit slower swimmers.

Below is some pictures of the Emerald shiners that have some how re populated in out pond. The pictures shows different sizes and I would guess to say they are 2.5" to 3" in size. We did have some much larger ones in the trap on the 16th but we let them go. I would say they were more in the 4-5" range. The larger 4-5" ones I expect are the original stocked from three years ago. Interesting fact. These what I am calling emerald shiners will freeze or completely stop moving if you put them on their back. When we let them go back into the pond there was a few that ended on their backs. We had to flip them over so they could swim away.

Details on the pond next.

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I do not know what aspect or detail of our pond or if it is just the genetics of the emerald shiners we have but they are re populating the pond to the point we can trap then every day right now. Trying to trap a big one like we let go the other day. Easy 5" if not close to 6".

Pond back ground.

Pond was dug in a kidney shape to get wave action from most any direction. The pond was dug as deep as the hoe could reach from the undisturbed sub soil. All the top soil was stripped first and piled. We are blessed with very heavy clay so the sides are an easy 10/12 then where the rip rap was placed about 12 liner feet all the way around the pond is 4/12.

We built up the banks before we put the rip rap in to level the ponds rim. The compaction was only what the bulldozer could pack as it leveled the sub soil clay. So after the clay was all leveled we had one end about 14 feet deep at full pool and the other end 12 feet deep. There was a natural slope to the land of 2 feet so the road side did get an extra 2 feet of clay.

All around the pond was 4" medium recycled concrete as rip rap. It was cheaper than river rock at about 1/4 the cost. As well it would then give off lime stone for quite some time as the concrete aged.

We built a ridge in the middle across the kidney shape that is 5-8 feet deep. The ridge is where we put pea stone mixed with some crusher screenings. This was built for sun fish if some day we chose to go with bass and sun fish stocking combo. I nice spawning area. On the one side of the ridge we have stacked a pile of sticks. Apple trees, spruce trees, pine bows and a few stumps. Just out from this brush pile we have potted hybrid lily pads. Some red, yellow, and orange. All are a little later then each other so most of the season there is some cover and one at least flowering.

On the direct north side of our pond we built a water fall. This waterfall is about 6 feet tall and about 8 feet wide. It is made up of granite slabs ranging from 6-8"s and stacked. Under all the rock is a heavy rubber roofing material epdm. This runs deep into the pond as well just about to the bottom. We then placed 4" river rock on top of the rubber all the way to the bottom of the pond. I did not want the water coming off the falls to erode the pond bank under the falls in the pond. We pump 5500 gph over it with the in pond pump. We have a drainage creek about 40 feet from the pond that we fill the pond to full pool. The pumps pump 8500 gph in over the falls when the pond float calls for water. This was all build with the hopes that some day walleye may spawn in our pond. The water coming in from this creek has farm land run off so we do not fertilize the pond at all. I feel there is enough coming in from the farm land. In the spring I run the falls 12 hours a day during the day. The falls face is 100% south exposure. In the summer when the water temp of the pond starts to creep up I run the falls 12 hours at night. This dose seem to help keep the pond cool in the summer months. In August the pond will evaporate and leak water and the water level will drop 2-3 feet. When the creek fills up with water again the pond fills.

We have a small aerator pump that pumps 24/7 year round. Two air stations on the shallow ridge run all winter and the two deep ones all summer. I do have one of the shallow ones running just a bit in the summer. If the hydro flickers from a summer storm the little rocker air pump will lock and not pump the air down that deep. So with the shallow air station valve just cracked on the air will escape there and allow the pump to start then it pumps air deeper and pressure builds.

Other than a floating dock that is details on the pond. I do add blue dye to the water to limit the FA and the pond from going to dark with plankton. As soon as I can't see 18"s deep in gos a half a pint of pond dye.

Picture "pondGmap3" shows. Green showing ridge, Red on ridge showing brush pile and lily's, blue circles showing air stations. Red circle on shore indicates waterfall, red lines from creek are in and out from creek.

Cheers Don.

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2012-06-15 16.17.25.jpg 2012-06-15 16.17.55.jpg 2012-06-15 16.19.22.jpg IMG_1593.jpg dock2.1.jpg pondGMaps3.jpg

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Time line.

Emerald shiners/common shiners about 50/50 September 2012 right after pumps filled pond from creek.

400 pellet trained Yellow perch added November 2012 Lake Erie genetics from North Shore fish farm.

Crayfish/fathead minnows added spring of 2014. About 200-300 crayfish and 200-300 fathead minnows.

Summer of 2014 harvested 20 yellow perch tried best to only take males.

Cheers Don.

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What a well thought out and executed plan Dono. Excellent!

Dumb luck is always welcome around my place. If only it were more dependable, I would rely on it entirely! grin


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Those shiners in your photos are likely all common shiners and not emerald shiners.

With your large man made stream/falls I'm not surprised you are getting reproduction out of the common shiners. Common shiners do quite well in northern lakes where they can ascend a feeder stream to spawn. Your set up is like a miniature version of that.

Common shiners max out at about 2/3 the size of GSH, so they will likely be a little better forage for your YP and future WE.

When young, common shiners can be easily confused with emerald shiners. Emerald shiners usually max out around 3" with a giant being 5". Common shiners commonly reach 4"-6" and can push 8+".

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Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
Those shiners in your photos are all common shiners and not emerald shiners.

With your large man made stream/falls I'm not surprised you are getting reproduction out of the common shiners. Common shiners do quite well in northern lakes where they can ascend a feeder stream to spawn. Your set up is like a miniature version of that.

Common shiners max out at about 2/3 the size of GSH, so they will likely be a little better forage for your YP and future WE.

When young, common shiners can be easily confused with emerald shiners. Emerald shiners usually max out around 3" with a giant being 5". Common shiners commonly reach 4"-6" and can push 8+".


Here is a few of the ones I was told were common shiners. They are different in that they have more of a square tail and not quite as shiny. If I am mistaken then maybe some one could ID these guys for me.

They have a smaller eye and will get bigger then the shiners and they are not as chrome like in colour. These that I am calling Emerald shiners are so so bright.

Cheers Don.

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FWIW after looking at lots of pics on the internet, my guess still goes with Emerald Shiner on those first pics.

Last edited by Bill D.; 04/20/15 03:45 PM.

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Those photos are of larger mature common shiners. As they age they get some chunk to them. I'm fairly certain, every single shiner in your photos is a common shiner. If you have Peterson's Field Guide to North American Fish, utilize the key and reaffirm my assessment. I'm 90% sure though. Better quality photos of fins would help confirm the ID.

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I agree. I can't get Emerald out of any of the pics.

I've grown them out in tanks and they will get about 4" or so. Nasty little predator tho. If you have YP and Emerald's in the same BOW, YP are laying eggs, Emerald's will clean that up pretty quick.

JKB #408554 04/20/15 06:39 AM
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Here is some more pictures close up. I have some high resolution pictures, but trimmed them for the forum. The one bottom fin is really hard to see unless zoomed in.

Cheers Don.

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The fin placement of those shiners in the close up pictures indicates these are emerald shiners. The origin of the dorsal fin for the common shiner is almost vertical or directly above the insertion of the pelvic fin whereas for the emerald shiner the insertion of the dorsal fin is well behind the origin of the pelvic fin as in shiner2 picture.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/20/15 11:21 AM.

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How long do these live? They went in as bait fish from the bait store in September of 2012.

Another note might be the feed. They really love this Martin's feed that is made local here that we use. I still run a bit of the 2.5mm with the 5mm floating feed.

The high energy feed sinks and has a higher fat content the 5mm that we use is a floating feed so we can see the perch eating.

The odd thing was that just before the summer the perch seem to really slow on the feed. Like they were not even there so we just keep feeding the minnows the 5mm.

My thoughts were the Perch found something that they liked better to eat. Or they were eating the sinking feed and we could not see them feeding. This is probably the case.

Cheers Don.


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Some more pictures for you folks.

First one is with the flash on then I turned it off.

Cheers Don.





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A few emeralds will live to spawn in their 5th summer age 4. In the pond setting you may see slightly longer life spans and less predation pressure maybe to age 5 or even 6. YP may be feeding on abundant shiner fry, small crayfish, and sinking pellets during the summer.

Great pictures. I would call those definitely emerald shiners. Note the distinct, definite position of the dorsal fin well posterior to the pelvic fin origin. Also note the distinct falcate anal fin a character of emerald shiner and not of the common shiner. On these last pictures you can clearly count the anal fin rays which are 11 and the common shiner has 8-9 anal fin rays.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/21/15 01:22 PM.

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