Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Help Dead Bream, Aerator and Water Chemistry

Hi,
My problem is that I have been finding a dead bream almost every other day since the start of July. The dead bream are usually 4 to 5 inches in length. I haven’t seen any visible signs of a problem on the dead ones. I did observe one swimming close to the surface, like he was spaced out one day, he was floating the next. When I was watching him, he wasn’t gulping for air, just swimming real slowly. No catfish or minnows have been found dead.

My pond is about a year old it is 1/4 acre in size and approximately 8 ft. deep since we have had no rain in a while. Our water source is run-off. It was initially stocked in November of 2004 with 300 Hybrid Bream (from a local South Georgia Fish Farm, 50 Channel Catfish and 5,000 minnows. I put a bottom ¼ hp .air diffuser in the pond about March of 2005 and have run it 24/7. The water is an olive green with clarity of about 8 inches. We broadcast about 200 lbs of agriculture lime last winter into the pond. The fish are fed floating pellets once a day, my wife also insist on giving them their “ice-cream” which is bread from the day old bread store. The bream don’t seem to be eating like they were; they slowed down since July of this year. The bream seemed to have spawned heavily this summer. We were supposed to have added about 15 bass this spring, and I know I messed up, but for various reasons at the time we didn’t. We caught and put on the dinner table this summer about 5 catfish and 15 bream. When they were a bit smaller, we did some catch and release.

I tried to talk to someone from the State and get help but all I got was a run-around. Then I sent my water off to the hatchery were the fish were bought. When I called for the results, I was asked if I aerated and how. After I told him we were using a bottom diffuser, he said that it was the cause of my fish getting sick and not the water chemistry. He said I needed to come get his floating and expensive aerator PDQ or they would all be dead. He explained that I was stirring up the “septic tank” at the bottom and that was the problem. I all ever got out of him about my water chemistry was that my PH and alkalinity were low, but no numbers. Now I really don’t know what to do. I know a large predator needs to be added but other than that, I’m confused. I thought I had made an informed decision on the bottom aerator. Any help will be very much appreciated. I have really enjoyed the forum and have learned alot.

Thank you,
Lewis and Laurelee

L&L:

Since you started out with a new pond, there is no "septic tank" in the bottom of the pond to stir up (abruptly beginning bottom aeration on an old pond with a lot of bottom muck IS very likely to cause problems).

Are the catfish still active? Taking feed? Going after bait when you fish? "No dead catfish observed" and "no dead catfish" can be two different things. If you are losing a HBG every couple of days and the catfish are fine, that's quite different than if the cats are gone.

Don't think abut putting predators in until 1) the water cools off this Fall and 2) you get this dying bream problem figured out. Your stocking sounds a little heavy to me for 1/4 acre, and the 8" visbility worries me, but I don't qualify as an expert in my region, let alone in GA. Stay tuned for better advice. If you are going to spend money to analyze/fix things, I would highly recommend Greg Grimes - he's based out of Ball Ground, GA. You're likely to get excellent advice gratis from him anyway, if he sees your post.

Are you certain that it wasn't the minnows that reproduced this year? Hybrid bream don't typically pull off a spawn.

Was this a new, or existing pond when you stocked it?

Did you take a pH reading both before and after your ag lime application?

I think we can figure this one out.

Just found the post. I'm going to bet you are talking with Holyoak? I would not believe most of that advice. If indeed 8 inches that is the problem. You are probbaly having mid 90 degree weather if we are in the 90's up above Atlanta. The phytoplankton bloom is causing low dissolved oxygen in the morning. You have created a good sitaution it sounds like to me. How many total fish have you lost? Also are you fertilzing? If so STOP! If not you need to find the source of your nutrients casuing the low visibility.

I would like to thank everyone again for their help. It is a new pond one year old, clay bottom. No channel catfish at all have died, except for a couple of catch and release mistakes we made. We probaly did overstock, after reading some of the post here about the hatchery we bought from. Mr. Grimes, I wouldn't recommend betting against you, about who we bought fish from and contacted.

We didn't fertlize the pond, but did put some fertilizer out trying to get the grass we plugged established. Had some good downfall afterwards, I'm sure some went into the pond. Wish we could get some rain now. We definitly have alot of new patented bream. It was recommended that we put HSB in at spring and we didn't. The catfish are eating vigorously, and are fairly easy to catch. The bream are now eating a little better. I would guess we have lost 25 in the last 8 weeks. We had went three days since we first posted and thought it had worked itself out, then found a beautiful 6 inch patented bream floating. I would rather catch them, than see them die. Should we start fishing, or maybe sein the spawn and get the new ones out? The Ph, the best I was able to determine (this was the local pool store tester) was 6.2 before liming and 6.9 after. They said they couldn't test a pond, so next time I lied. Never got the numbers from the free water testing at hatchery. We are running the bottom diffuser 24/7. I read small ponds were harder to manage, and now sure wish we had more money at the time.
Thanks,
Laurelee and Lewis

Laurelee and Lewis,

These must be so-called "Georgia Giant" sunfish? If you are noting reproduction then they are probably minnows and not your hybrids since hybrids have no or low fecundity. I would encourage you strongly to get a digital photo of the sunfish and maybe get some help from us to post the picture. The larger the sunfish the better.

Are you saying that the results of your free water test were never provided for you? That's discouraging.

We'd love to help you manage through these early concerns. It sounds like your pond has great potential. If you're willing to learn from all of the great information here in a couple of years you will look back on this and hopefully get a good laugh.

I have no beef with a person I've never met, but I'm not wildly impressed so far with whomever has provided you with some of your early advice.

This response is targeted more for Greg and Bruce but hopefully it will help laurelew.

Could the combination of too many BG (and susequent fish squeezings), lack of a predator, 200 lbs of lime, supplimental feeding (amount not stated) and high temps result in the pond soup that has led to some fish die-off?? I understand no one wants to see their fish floating but would you be concerned with the number of dead fish these folks have noticed over the past few months. Like Bob has stated in the past, mother nature will fix the problem.

As for the advice from the hatchery, my thoughts side with Theo on the stocking of the number of BG. Although no size is stated, 300 sounds a bit on the high side for a 0.25 acre pond. Without any data from the water test (especially DO), I would question the advice on the surface aerator.

We have not had a Ken Holyoak smack down in a while, L&L Greg Grimes is a great source of information on this site and I consider him a friend but Ken is one issue we disagree on. I have Georgia Giants in my Putnam county pond and have had great success with them. With a .25 acre pond If you want bream I think Hybrid bream is a much better choice than Bluegills because of the lower fertility(Ga Giants do reproduce). Also in a small pond catfish can be your predator.
Is 300 Ga Giants to many for a .25 acre pond, not if some are going into the fry pan. If anything to many cats were stocked.
That said with your aeratetor you are not(imo) losing fish in your first summer because of over stocking.
What causing the die off, wish I could help there. Don't know.
BTW my Georgia Giants are now 4 years old and average 1.25 pounds with the largest being 1.5 lbs and no sign of the dreaded Green Sunfish.
Good luck

I'd love to see a picture of a one pound Georgia Giant. Can you post one? It would surely stimulate discussion because Ken H. won't say what mixture of sunfish that he uses.

Please, please, please post a picture.

They really reproduce? Do the offspring look just like the original stockers? This would seem highly unusual for any true F1 hybrid.

I'm luckly to even be able to take a picture.
They do reproduce and as Ken says most are male.
So far the offspring look like the parents but as Ken says on his website and in his catalog they will degenerate over time.
My Georgia Giants have a large mouth and yellow an their lower fins which is a trait of the standard cross. I have wondered whether Georgia Giants are like "Tiger Bass" more controling the brood stock than a different mix

Bill,

It's very interesting to read your comments about the Georgia Giants.

It would be even more interesting if Ken Holyoak would join the Forum to present his views on the Georgia Giants. Maybe you could invite him to join the Forum and present his views, and even defend his concepts as appropriate?

I would love to read his views and make up my own mind. Please ask him to contribute to our discussions and knowledge on the Forum. Thanks.

I sent Ken the following e-mail...but it would be better if one of his customers made a request for him to join our discussion:

"Ken,

I would like to invite you to join the discussion group called the "Pond Boss Forum". It is a group of widely experienced pondmeisters from all over the country that discusses issues and questions relevant to pond management. Very often, your fish, the Georgia Giant, is a topic of discussion. I have read everything from bad to good about your fish and would love to hear from you directly on the Forum.

Many of your current and future customers frequent this Forum and it would be to your benefit to provide your insights on your Georgia Giants. Thank you for considering this request and I look forward to reading a post from you in the near future.

Meadowlark, on the Forum."

Well be careful what you ask for, because here I am (just kidding). I was unaware of this site until receiving a very polite phone call within the past hour requesting us to join. As for the supporters on this forum, I thank you. As for others I hope we can formidably discuss the matter at hand and in turn possible educate each other. Having been in this business for 40 years, I have touched the iceburg on hybrids (especially the Georgia Giant). I will defend this fish to the death as it does reproduce (with the offspring being F-2, then F-3, then F-4...). It generally takes about 10 generations for this fish to revert completely to the size of it's "parents", but customers should never see this if predator fish are introduced to control the population. Any pond can become overpopulated if no predators exist. As for the fish kill itself, absolutely nobody on this forum or otherwise (including myself) could give you an exact answer without #1 testing your water and #2 actually looking at a sample. As for the "septic tank condition" metioned above, I was referring to possible high concentrations of ammonia that would be in the pond from any organic decay. I apologize to the customer who started this discussion if I did not explain your test thoroughly in the beginning. Here at the hatchery we test for water hardness, alkalinity, pH, and ammonia. We also dissect fish for internal parasites, bacterial infections, or external parasites (on live fish only). Sump pumps and bottom diffusers can't produce the much needed oxygen for the fish to survive. Oxygen is at its lowest right before the sun rises, on hot summer days, and on overcast days. If you will research true aeration systems (for up to three acres)on the net, you will find that our Aquarius aerator with a price of $648.95 is extremely reasonable. Again I want to apologize to the original author of this letter. Our job here is to aid you, not to discourage or disappoint. Please give us another try. If you are close by and can bring in another sample, and possibly even a fish, we will do whatever we possibly can to get you through this. There is nothing worse than to see fish floating in what you believed to be an otherwise healthy pond.

Ken,

Welcome, from the "polite" phone caller. I'm most happy you have joined in the Forum.

OK I know you do not know this man. I wish eveyone could he is a mulit millionaire and could sale anything he just choose fish. He has some science with about everything he does but then it stops and salesman take over. You will not see me talk bad about folks they just have diff opinions. However I have seen WAY too many ponds ruined with $1,000's spend to hold back. I do not go around talking about him but if it comes up I say my peace.

I will say this he has opened the minds from the old school thoughts of many and I thank him for that. Also GA Giants have there place. In fact with Laurelew do not even think 300 is too many and not a bad idea given the situaiton. Bill you have enough knowledge to not let him steer you wrong he can sense that and may not try to oversell. If folks have some knowledge I do thin khe has good fish I just hate to see overstocking of fish (can you tell) Did you stock bluegill with the GA giants? I think you did and if so they will out compete greenies.

My problem is when I go to ponds where Ken has sold them 5-10K/acre. Seen it many times. Also they spend tons of $ on his water quality improvement products. Also great marketing with his "free water test". It states alkalinity should be above 200 (ya'll tell me if this is right). In GA if you have it above 8 your doing good. "You do not need to use ag lime it is slow" Use instead our quick lime with a buffer. He has this marketed with a nice name but it is hydrated lime. It works jumps alkalinity way up. See what I mean some science but then the hydrated lime is gone in a few months and guess what you need to spend more money with him.

ML I hope he responds to your post. I would Love to see his comments on some of these topics. However this site does not pay. I doubt he will be here. Ok Ken please make me eat crow and post here it would be fun.

BTW ML he is about 4 hours away and I have never competed with him directly. I just field calls in north GA where folks are so mad about spending 20K in the last 2 yearrs and stil have small fish. I got them on the right track but they to hear it takes a few years after reading about catalog.

Sorry Bill

Greg I don't believe we have ever had the pleasure of speaking directly (or for that matter indirectly). Please do not make the accusations that you have based on... what are they based on? I am not a multi-millionare by any stretch of the imagination. In fact our office is a 20x30 concrete cook house set on a pond's edge. We do have over 50 ponds throughout 1500 acres, but just like everyone else we owe bills too. I have been educated in this field by many Universities in many different countries, but I learn everyday from the people I associate with. It is when you stop trying to learn that you make the worst mistake. And by the way, no nut would stock 10 K fish to an acre pond. Different ponds require different recomendations (as do people). In regards to the alkalinity mentioned, on a pH scale the reading should be 7-8 (putting it more on the alkaline side). What we test for in "hardness and alkalinity" is calcium and stress levels which ARE ideal around 200. Most ponds in South Georgia run 17-68. We recomend 120 or higher. This is just a recomendation for optimum fish growth. I am sorry to disagree with your statements Mr. Grimes, but we have seen far more success stories with our proven program than we have seen failures. Everyone has his/her own opinions (the American way), and I respect that. I also appreciate the chance you all have given me to defend myself and my work.

Man that is some bad tasting crow! Im impressed. I have met you on one ocassion and spoke with you twice. I will probably lose any discussion we have on here b/c you are good at selling you point on the phone and it seems the same here. You can sure sell some fish.

Maybe clients have all lied to me on what you stocked in the pond. I will have to go through names to find them again but one comes to mind Waters Edge in Greensboro. I have the papers on this one: 2 acres stocked with 6,000 ga giants, 4,000 channel cats, and 1,200 bass. 0.5 acre on same property 1500 ga giant, 1500 channle cat I have the invoice! Explain please he wanted balanced pond. Stocked 1998 and had nothing but green sunfish in 2000 and one huge bass.

However Ken come on now be honest. I will not bash you here anymore but allow others to form their own opinion. Couple of questions if you do not mind.

If your test shows a total hardness of 12 what do you recommend?

WHat are recommend stocking rate for balanced pond?

I look forward to response.

Hey Greg! I do not know of the invoices that you speak about, but keep in mind that a pond can be stocked over the years by animals also. Birds are terrible about dropping fish eggs and diseases into ponds. We treat hundreds of ponds each year that have bacterial infections from this very thing. As for your questions:

#1. We work alot with the University of Georgia Diagnostic division, and have had alot of success adding calcium to the pond to raise the hardness levels. Now once again please keep in mind that every customer's pond is different, so we can not predict the EXACT reaction. The hardness can raise a little, a lot, or be absorbed into the soil. We are only here to make recommendations based on 40 years of experience.

#2. 1 catfish and one largemouth bass for every 5 bream is our current balanced recommendation. Sterile smallmouth bass go 1 to 3 (based on 1000-3000 bream to the acre). Before you jump on the word "current" let me remind you that science is an ever changing thing. That is the reason we have the number of ponds that we do on our farm. We constantly experiment with these ponds to achieve optimum growth and quality in the fish. Changing stocking numbers is just one variable in the ever changing scientific method. We also admit it when we make a mistake, and there have been alot of those. That is how we all learn to better things.
By the way, may I ask your profession please? You seem to know just enough. Maybe we can learn from one another.

Have you ever heard of tying two cats' tails together, then hanging them over a clothesline? I've never seen this accomplished before.

Ken thanks for reply. You can read all about us at www.lakework.com. I have learned indirecly from from you both good and bad. I guess you have never read my pond management articles in GON (where you have an ad every month, in case you do not know this is the famous grower of Hogzilla as well)

You caught me in the office so I will reply back. I have invoice right in front of me (oh well). Many other folks also that have told me they stocked over 5,000 ga giants and 5,000 channel catfish/ac in pond. Also one client said they spend 20K with you over a 2 year period on a 3 acre pond, you think that is high? We can not prove these so I will focus on current questions.

Again you did not provide numbers...

This is what I'm talking about I have seen various stocking numbers from you over the years. I agree every situation is differnet but can you answer the question?

I will ask it another way...if hardness is low what product do you recommend and at what rate?

If you have a 2 acre pond and want a balanced bluegill/bass pond how many fish do you recommend?

Theo good one! Maybe we should post this thred under another topic it might good.

Also Ken UGA fish and science divsion...What is that? I have a master degree in Fisheries from University of Georgia, back in 1998. I have never heard of that department? Who did you work with? Not saying you are not well educated I know you are but come again?

Theo you are right! Nothing is ever accomplished with the batter that is going back and forth. The original issue of the customers dead fish should be discussed. Again I ask that he/she please contact us to see if we can help. I also apologize again if we did turn you away somehow.
As for Greg, shall I use the home address posted in whitepages.com to forward you a catalog. We do not need to waste anyone else's time with this he said she said stuff. I am sorry if you have a bone to pick with me, but let's pick it in private. Once you get the catalog your questions will be answered. Otherwise you are welcome to call anytime. I have a delivery truck going into Chatsworth, Rome, Dalton, Marietta, and Gainsville next week, and I would love to bring you some Giants. Friends?

Ken I'm sorry for my tone, I just wanted to give you an opportunity to explain some of your advice. I thought the questiosn might just do this. I agree not much to gain from the he said and he said part but hoped you would provide straight forward answer. Yes you will be close by next week and good luck with the Giants but do not recommend them in most situations. Sure address is on website the one I have is 2 yrs old. However I disagree the catalog will not resolve issues with me, sorry.

ken holyoak, please respond, could you set me up with a free hog hunt and fish combo, i will stand up for you forever, please ken, i have a ruined neck, i wont have many years left. lbuck

Ken your customer Bill Duggan here, guess I started this. This is a great pond site hope you keep posting.
Greg, Kens catolog has stocking recommendations in it, while the stocking is at the high end of what we post here it is not what you have seen or heard about. I studied and researched for a year before ordering Georgia Giants, I would think few people order without seeing the catalog first. the pluses and minus of Georgia Giants are clear in the catalog.
I have picked up fish from Ken three times, once spending a couple hours with him in his office(it is as he described)he is a natural saleman who believes in his Giants.
What ever you think of Ken get his catalog it is an evenings entertainment reading it.
Ken once again we need new blood and ideas on this site keep posting
PS is Jason still a wild man

Greg, yes I have since stocked coppernose bream which is not Kens recommendation