Pond Boss Forums AERATION Systems questions looking to build or buy a system for my pond.

First off here is a thread with the background and current state of my pond. Need to update it but currently 4.5-5 foot low on water but coming up steadily with the spring rains.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=30089&Number=390173#Post390173

I am wanting to put an aerator in to keep the water open in the winter and to help eliminate stratisification during the hot summer months.

Picture from thread above to show aerial photo of the pond before all the work done last fall.


So I am thinking possibly a 2 defuser setup with one in the deepest portion of the pond 14-16' (approx. the top end of the bold yellow line) and a second one off the end of the point between the two fingers in about 6 to 7' feet of water. I can locate the pump at the back shed or at ponds edge very easily and power is readily available at the sheds. My only concern is the noise level that would be associated with it being mounted inside my building. I have an idea of what this might cost to do with a turn key system but I havent been able to find/figure out what I would need to look for in a DIY system.

Appreciate any help and suggestions

Hopefully Bill Cody chimes in. He just helped me build a system for my pond. He is a guru of knowledge! I do know that the rotary vane pumps are quieter then the double piston pumps, but the double piston pumps are capable of running at higher pressures. Bill could steer you in the right direction and also has the parts to help you build a system.

BTW: How deep is your pond?

It is somewhere between 14 & 16' foot.

I think that will be roughly 8 psi pressure, which is still in operation limits on a rotary vane. I learned a lot from Bill, but I am no means an expert. Learning all this stuff as I go

If you're comparing turn key systems from someone like vertex, a diy system, with a gast pump (better then vertex) and a membrane diffuser set up your cost should be around 1/3 of that vertex price. Mine was even less than that because I bought a used, but rebuilt, pump. Both system use same type of membrane diffuser (EPDM).

Save yourself a bunch of time and hassle with trying to set up your own system and just go with a Vertex. Their systems are set up in packages ready to plug in and go. I always have people trying to purchase products to make their own system and the time they spend versus the money they save is very minimal. Vertex's pond lyfe systems will work perfect for a pond this size and depth and operate for around $6 per month, depending on what you are paying per kilowatt hour for your electricity.

Also, if you do decide to build your own system, stay away from the rotary vane compressors... they are very very loud, regardless of what some say. The Vertex Pond-Lyfe systems operate at about 48 db's at a distance of 15ft... they are quiet.
Also, rotary vane compressors need to be rebuilt every 8-12 months for optimal air flow.. compared to ever 18-24 months on the piston compressors that Vertex uses.

Warranty: another nice feature of the Vertex systems is the 2 year warranty they give you on their compressors, vs the 1 year of other compressors...

I have been doing this for almost 20 years... take my advise when I say spending a little extra upfront will save you more in the long run...

Wow Pond Pro you would make a great salesmen! Blue72 if you have the time and want to make your own setup you can do it. I find it funny how folks are worried bout how much noise the pump will put out! Most pumps are down by the pond side and if not there next to the garage or something. I have a gast 0523 rotary pump and it's in a pet crate down by the pond about 80 feet from my cabin and I really have to listen to hear it? To me loud is relative as to what you think is loud I guess?

I made my first system for about 350 bucks ran like a champ on my 1 acre pond! I since have upgraded my pump to the 1/3 hp gast 0523. Got a few parts from Mr. Cody and it's been running like a champ! So I say I now have about 450 bucks in my setup.

Not bashing Vertex they make a great setup and if you can afford to just say hey come put air in my pond then I would say go for it!! But like most of us that just is not an option! A little elbow work and some good advice from guys out here and you should be well on your way to making D.O. in that pond!! Just hang in there and see what others have to say!

I am living proof it can be done! I had no pond experience when I bought this pond and I now have had my DIY system for 5 years and no fish kills yet..... I run my setup about 10 hours a day and my bill it about 11 bucks a month. This will vary depending on your electric in your area that is one part I agree with that Pond Pro said!

RC

Of course pump cost will vary depending what you find, but if your thrifty enough you can find what you need at the price you can afford.

I agree that loud is a relative term, the big block in my camaro is loud by most peoples standards but compared to top fuel drag car it is quite as a church mouse! LOL

The reason i have particular interest in the noise is the fact I am considering mounting it inside my back pole barn which has my car lift in it and is where all my big projects will be done. I dont want it to make it so I have to yell at somebody working with me in there. If it is to loud for that I can easily run the power to pondside for mounting of everything but having it inside out of the weather seems attractive to my maintenance minded self.

As far as what I have experience with my parents have a gast single piston pump on there 1 1/2 acre pond that I have rebuilt 3 times now in 8 years that is mounted on the back of there cinder block garage. Why it isnt terribly loud I fear it could be if you put inside my 36x56x14 uninsulated pole barn.

Pond pro is definitely a salesman. These gast pumps are industrial grade pumps ran in different industries across the globe. If youre rebuilding the rotary vane pump every year you have a bigger problem than the pump. On a new pump with pressure relief valve and proper set up, I was told these pumps have ran 20 years without a rebuild. I believe that based on how these pumps are built and designed for 24/7 manufacturing. I thought about going vertex in the beginning, but based on what you get for the price, it'd be a hard sell to someone like Warren Buffet even!

FWIW I have an Airmax turnkey system that uses a rocking piston pump. It is in my little pump house and you need to be within 20 feet of the pump house to hear it at all. The system has worked great so far but only been a year.

With that said, If I could do it over a again, knowing what I have learned at PBF, I would do a DIY system and save the extra bucks. On the other hand, IMHO If I was building a pond complex with multiple ponds or had a large pond with multiple areas of varying depths, I would go to a pro for a professionally designed system.

Well.... I'm definitely a salesman.. But, I'm not here to pitch my company, although I am able to. I am a distributor of Vertex products, but also have the availability to sell all other manufacture systems on the market. My opinion is solely based on my years of experience in the lake and pond management industry, and like others on here, I'm just here to give my $0.02

Regarding the rotary vane compressor... there is a reason most manufacturers have moved away from them.. Noise and frequency of rebuild. And when I say rebuild, i'm not speaking of the electric motor, I'm talking about the carbon vanes that create the air.

I guess it's a preference and budget issue when it comes to aerators, but sometimes it's also easier when costs are factored in long term.

I have rebuilt and replaced many homemade systems in my almost 20 years in the industry.. Just looking to give another point of view and hopefully some valuable insight is all.

PP not questioning your experience but just maybe the method in which you use it

Bottom line is this guys! If you have the money to get Vertex to hook you up and check out your pond and give you a "This is what I would do" consultation I'd say do it cause they know their stuff no doubt!

If your into the DIY kind of thing and have a little time on your hands and are not afraid to do a little homework you can do it yourself and save a "bit" of money. Of course there is always a higher risk factor doing it yourself and messing something up but isn't that what ponds and Pondboss is all about?

IMO pondboss is more about learning how to, and experiencing the what if's and the I messed up cause I tried this factor and reporting back to us about what not to do and what to do.

Now I get it some folks don't want to go through all of that so for them I say find a vendor and let them help you out if you can! It's really up to what you want to get out of it!

I know more about air in ponds now then I ever would have if I let someone else do it all. I am no expert by any means but a lot better off now then I was 5 years ago. You know what they say "knowledge is power"!

RC

I agree!
I believe my position is clear - DIY is the way to go if you have the time and inclination for this kind of stuff.
Bill Cody can provide all the information and components for DIY aeration systems without ANY hard sell.
George

FYI- Part of my moderator responsibility is to verify accuracy of statements. The comment of "stay away from the rotary vane compressors... they are very very loud, regardless of what some say. The Vertex Pond-Lyfe systems operate at about 48 db's at a distance of 15ft... they are quiet."

The Gast Manufacturing engineering department informed me that the standard Gast Rotary 0523 ¼hp sound db (decibles) is 55db at the compressor. The compressor used for the Pond-Lyfe (rocking or wobble piston) is also 55db at the compressor. Thus noise level is basically the same for both compressors although they produce a different type of sound. In fairness the older Gast Rotary vane 0523 pre 1980’s did not have a quiet running head on them thus they were noticeably noisier than the more recently produced rotary vane compressors (post ~1985).

Various styles of compressors have their benefits and specialty applications which is why they have several models. IMO rotary vanes are easier and quicker to rebuild than the rocking piston. I can rebuild 2 or 3 rotary vanes in the time it takes me to rebuild one rocking piston compressor. Each style of compressor has a useful life span for the air producing mechanism and motor bearings. Do your homework.

If time is money or you are 'unhandy', then consider buying buy a package system. If you have more time than money and are on a limited or small budget then explore DIY systems.

Does anyone have a video of a rotary pump running? I know what the rocking piston pumps sound like my parents have a single cylinder gast but I have never been exposed to a rotary pump and I am curious what they sound like.

I suppose I will weigh in with another viewpoint or two.

I think there's more to it than the initial, up front costs. Yes, the mechanical components of aeration may be fairly straightforward. I built the system that runs in the HBG pond myself, using components from Vertex as well as other suppliers. It works fine.

But, I have no "service after the sale". And while the combination of fairly simple mechanics and a hands-on ability allows me the freedom to maintain and repair my system, not everyone is willing or able to do that. Service, including answers to your questions, means something. Or at least it should.

It's springtime here in the lawnmower shop, and I've got work piled up to my eyebrows. But instead of turning wrenches, I'm busy typing on this keyboard. And the reason for me doing so, is because this subject is one I am somewhat familiar with.

I make a living servicing equipment. Lots of folks choose to service their own lawn and garden equipment, rather than bringing it in and have me do it. Nothing wrong with that. EXCEPT...when the issue is one other than service. They can do the basics, but when things require a little more thought they turn to me, out of necessity rather than choice. They use me only when they cannot do it themselves. We're all familiar with the term "gravy work"?? I believe that applies to lawnmowers just as it does to aeration. If you can't let the company make a little money, how do you justify using them only when you have no other choice?

How many times have I read a post on this forum regarding homemade aeration, where the advice given was to "call Sue"? Seriously guys, you're willing to pick their brain when you're not going to buy their product? I hate when I lay a wrench down in order to answer the phone, only to find someone on the other end who wants me to help them diagnose their problem. I walked away from a paying job to talk to this guy??

Like all of the other PB members I have been fortunate enough to meet, I have found Sue to be extremely knowledgeable, and willing to share information in order to try and help. But I would not be surprised to learn that, like me, there's a part of her that groans inwardly every time one of "those" guys calls up and starts asking questions, when it's apparent that no income will be derived from this transaction whatsoever.

I haven't taken the time to check, but I wonder if there's a banner ad across the top of the page from some commercial aeration enterprise? If so, that equates to support for this forum in my book. They don't have to advertise here, they choose to do so in the hopes it might generate revenue.

Shutting commercial concerns out of the picture for anything other than free advice just doesn't resonate well with me, but that's strictly my own feeling.

Whether aeration or lawnmowers....throw the dealer a bone once in awhile, boys. There's a good chance they may be providing support to you in a fashion that you hadn't stopped to consider.

Just because you put a DIY aearation system together yourself doesn't eliminate service if needed.
I bought my 1/4 Gast rotary vane pump from Bill Cody some 12 years ago and it has run 24/7 and has never needed sevice, but I betcha Bill would repair if needed.
I bought diffuser air stations from Vertex and weighted tubing from Overton.
Made my pump container from a discarded Igloo cooler that has no fan that has provided good service.

My entire system would be about half the price of a package deal.
Learned a lot about aeration in the process - like a surface aerator is much better suppling O2 in shallow water than a bottome diffuser system, and running both in extreme drought conditions.

I like options, which you don't always get from a package dealer...unless you ask enough question, which I learned to do ..the hard way...
G/

spkplug - very good thoughtful advice. Many consumers are for-free user types not buyers. For example, many members here use this forum for free quality pond management advice and do not contribute/donate anything the keep the forum viable. End of sermon.

Hey Spark I get what your saying for sure as I work in the I.T. world and I get all the time. Hey I got a question for you when you have a minute! I have a sticker up in my office that says. "No I Will Not Fix Your Computer"

But as a sales person or business that sells something unfortunately what your talking about goes with the job/business. All Sue has to do is talk to this guy once and then he says to another guy hey if you want a whole system Sue is who I would go to she helped me and didn't think twice!

As you well know I am sure word of mouth can be everything in your own business!! And helping some folks/future possible customers is just part of it!

RC

RC this scenario is certainly a possibility. However, I fear that a much more likely result would be the guy who received free information telling his buddies:

"Hey, just do what I did...you don't need to spend that kind of money, I designed my very own system for a fraction of the cost! Just call Sue and she'll tell you what you need to know, then visit Ebay and order the stuff"....

And yes, part of owning or working at a business involves goodwill adjustments. It runs with the territory. But goodwill, just like good intentions, does not pay the light bill. I walked out and put that belt back on for that fellow, without even taking the mower off the trailer, just because he broke down halfway through the yard and rain was in the forecast. Didn't charge him a dime, but told him the reason it came off was due to worn parts...how about letting me correct the problem when you finish mowing the grass?

Never saw him for two weeks, until he showed back up with the belt off again, wanting me to come out and "slip it back on for him like I did last time", so he could finish mowing yet again. Where does a business draw the line? When does goodwill shift into good riddance?

Most folks who solicit free information are not bad sorts at all, and they truly don't understand the problem with asking someone to give up a few minutes of their time in order to try and help them. But what they also do not see, is the five other guys who called in that day wanting the same thing....it all adds up. And make no mistake, the purpose of being in business is to show a profit. If you can do that AND help someone out along the way, I'm all for it.

I'm including Sue in together with my way of thinking, and I shouldn't be. I don't know what her thoughts are on the matter....she may have absolutely no problem with spending time on the phone with DIY'ers. And maybe some of those people will purchase individual components from her, to go along with the valuable info they received. I hope so.

Spark - here is even another example. I've had several guys (no girls darn it) over the last 30 years stop by, spend several hours discussing, and learn all about aeration and pond management - at least they thought they learned it all. Then they go back and start their own business making and selling aeration stuff, with some starting their own pond management business and call themselves 'experts'. One 'invented a pond fountain'; one developed a 'special' water column tubular diffuser; one builds and sells aeration windmills; one built & sold a fountain aerator then sold the company; one started his own pond business. It takes all kinds.

That's for sure Bill. I think some of the ones I encounter would call the hospital, ask to speak to a surgeon, and begin to query them as to the procedure for removing one's own appendix, just to "save a little money".

Really?

Well guys I can assure you I am not going into pond business of any kind because I know I am no where near knowledgeable to help myself let alone anyone else!

I also understand all of the points made above about the help I am recieving. Bill has been helping me a great deal with this project and I will buy products from him in return for all the voluntary help he has given me! I am sure I could source the compressor he has recommended elsewhere concidering i have a lot of connections to industrial suppliers of many types of pumps and compressors but I would much rather buy from him in return for his help. If I could afford a vertex system and all the other projects my pond is needing this year I would probably talk to sue for suggestions but since I know that is out of the budget I dont feel right wasting her time to probe for info.

The one thing I wish there was is a good search engine for this forum, I really struggle to find information that I know has probably been posted a dozen times before on here and would really help me not have to ask all the dumb questions that I do on here...

I have the same problem so I just Google the question and end the query with "Pond Boss" Brings them right up.