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I have F2's around 4 inches and this years anywhere from inch to two.


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RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.
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I'll catch a few today and get pics when/if I get a chance.


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John, for what it's worth, I have a similar problem in which I unknowingly stocked HBG that the hatchery sold me as BG. When I realized this, we made a trip to a local lake that had been stocked about 1 year earlier with BG and transplanted 100. I also have LMB.

That was 2 years ago. My plan was to keep all the HBG as we catch them and toss back all BG. However, now that some of the HBG have reached 8 to 9", I have a hard time removing them knowing that next year they'll be even bigger. Like Dave said, we love catching those big ones. So now the plan is to remove all HBG caught except for any 8" or larger.

I know plenty of the HBG are females based on the eggs I find when filleting them, but I don't think a significant number of the offspring survive the LMB predation. Fly fishing with small nymphs, I catch plenty of small 2 to 3" BG, but rarely any small HBG. So I think as long as the BG spawn in greater numbers than the HBG, and we keep removing the majority of HBG caught, with the help of the LMB we should see their numbers reduced to the point of not being a factor.

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Thanks guys. We will get this figured out.


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Very few fish live to maturity but become prey as fry and up to a certain size. That size is determined by the other, larger, predators in the pond. That predation is mostly determined by the size and mouth gape of the larger fish.


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Have you caught any of your HBG yet this year John? Curious to know what size yours are getting up to.

Here in SE Ks the smaller BG have been active on warm sunny days and have caught several of the 5-7" BG. Only caught one 8" which I should have a number of that size by now (at least they were that size last fall). Caught a couple 13" LMB. I suspect the larger BG are still around the deeper cover. Seems like on days where the fish are less active the small BG and FHM near the shore line are still somewhat active. So based on my limited observations, the smaller fish get more active quicker than the larger specimens. Everything I've caught so far has been fairly near the shore.

Just wondered how your HBG came out after the winter.

Last edited by snrub; 03/19/15 10:04 AM.

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John - Small HBG can be easily caught in fish traps and several weeks of trapping can catch significant numbers of them for sorting and removal or return to the pond. Check out the various types of fish traps that members have bought, built and used.

I would not be real concerned about seeing some offspring of your HBG. One form of encouragement is that an early member (Meadowlark) of the PBForum was doing some growth studies of the Fx generations of HBG. He was finding that the offspring of HBG grew well if they had plenty of food (pellets). My limited experiences with the growth of offspring of the original stock of HBG is they do seem to grow well if they have ample food. Maybe you and others with HBG can also monitor the growth of your HBG offspring to give us some reports of what you are seeing happen as far as their grow and top end sizes. I will look for some of the posts of Meadowlark that describe his observations about FX generations of HBG and report back here with my findings.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/19/15 11:00 AM.

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I just finished building two smaller fish cages intended for this very purpose. I have minnow traps set out to try and catch some FX fish, and one of my projects this year is to begin caging and feeding them to try and establish just what they are capable of.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Sprkplug - Way to go. Excellent idea! I love it. I and many others await your results and I hope your results will make it into the PBoss magazine. I am jealous. Spark you are my HBG hero.

Here is some other reading about offspring of the HBG. Note in the Meadowlark link the information about the HBG offspring is farther down on the page.
http://www.meadowlarkponds.com/TGG.htm

4th generation HBG http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=393700#Post393700

This thread will be placed into the Archives in the HBG Topic

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/19/15 11:19 AM.

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I'm going to take some worms down to pond first chance I get. I went to check sizes Monday and wound up clearing FA all afternoon so I could fish. I fed that evening and everything went crazy. Was surprised to see that much action this early.

Last edited by John Wann; 03/19/15 02:07 PM.

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Yo Wann

Sounds like you have some FA issues - could this due to a lack of rooted vegetation established as it's a new pond? If you get some beneficial vegetation going it will help tie up those nutrients and help prevent FA from flourishing.

I think HBG are a great companion species for your SMB/HSB fishery and they will not become an issue you can't manage through angling and trapping if necessary. I think the fish that make it through the gauntlet will be trophies and a ton of fun to catch.

Good to hear from you, been a while. Viva El Wann!


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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
...and establish just what they are capable of.

Ok, but don't say I didn't warn you........

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TJ
What would you call good rooted vegetation? My pond is new and FA is flourishing

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Please hold off on the LMB! You can't un-ring that bell.

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Well stated Como +100


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Pat CJ and Cody can advise you much more thoroughly than I, but these are some of my favorite cultivars of emergent and submergent macrophytes:

Submergent

American Pondweed - fairly easily managed and can fish through it easily.

Illinois Pondweed - pretty similar I think I have both species present - both seem to appear later in the season for me.

Eelgrass - Spiral and corkscrew [maybe the same thing?]I don't have it, but I want it. A favorite of Cody and CJs.

Bushy type Pondweed - Various pondweeds like Sago, Horned, etc. can be good but my Baby pondweed is starting to become a management issue. Can be easily treated, and one can always opt for an organic solution with GC stocking. I bumped my population to 3/acre to help manage the Baby Pondweed last Summer.

Hybrid Lillies - Cody is an expert on lillies - has written extensively on the subject and suggests several good cultivars that are easy to manage and bloom in various colors. I want to try to establish them in my upper ponds that lack GC.

Emergent

Cattails to an extent can help utilize excess nutrients - a thin line of them along Northern banks exposed to lots of wave action can be a great natural defense. One will have to treat them annually to keep the colony managed - don't let them get away from you. Bear in mind cattails are a preferred forage item for muskrats - so I eradicate mine several times annually - can't afford the muskrat factor.

Various sedges and rushes are great emergent vegetation. I can't ID my species, but I have some growing naturally in few places on the main pond. I'll be transplanting it throughout the main pond this year in addition to the upper ponds and hopefully it propagates.

Arrowhead is a cool plant, and that also occurred for me naturally. Drawback is that I think Skrats also love grazing it...but I don't have the heart to treat it. It's a late season comer at my ponds - shows up around mid to late July.

Tons of other candidates I'm missing certainly, but these are the ones with which I'm familiar and have managed to an extent. Rooted vegetation should appear naturally - but some specialty species like Lillies and eelgrass may need to be introduced.

Bill has forgotten more than I know...he'll be along shortly. Try a Google search for "eelgrass pondboss" and "hybrid lillies pondboss" and start printing/highlighting.

Aren't we lucky to have those resources in our family?


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Originally Posted By: Yolk Sac
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
...and establish just what they are capable of.

Ok, but don't say I didn't warn you........



Yeah, yeah. Daedalus warned Icarus also, but did you happen to catch the tan on that kid? It was all-over perfect bronze.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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TJ, my one concern with promoting vegetation in a HBG environment is the need to keep pressure on the fry and yoy. I like to think the primary goal is to greatly curtail recruitment, and while plants will tie up nutrients thereby reducing the FA, they may also offer cover, which could be detrimental to the goal.

I wonder where the balance/happy medium point is, regarding HBG and the area devoted to beneficial plants??
Furthermore, if the goal is to try and reduce the fry/yoy, is it possible a more pelagic species like HSB might not fare as well prowling through the shallow vegetation like a LMB would, where predation against the HBG is concerned?

Always more questions.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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REALLY good point, Spark. For me personally, I'd prefer managing HBG than FA. But, I don't think it necessarily has to come to that ultimatum. I have found [again in my personal situation] that high density population of apex predators allowed to grow to sufficient size/gape will eventually get on top of the BG and manage the population, despite the abundant cover my rooted vegetation provides. I have no other structure/cover in the pond, so in the Winter while vegetation dies back it's literally a bathtub from November to April. I suspect a very significant number of YOY BG and YP get hammered during this spell with no refuge. Now, consider that HBG are far less fecund than BG, and 97% offspring are male, I think Wann is facing a far more manageable situation than someone like myself, Banks, or Yolk who manage cool water species fisheries with BG present. If Wann can assist management efforts with some angling and trapping, my guess is he can keep on top of the HBG.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Yeah, yeah. Daedalus warned Icarus also, but did you happen to catch the tan on that kid? It was all-over perfect bronze.

You've totally lost me. What the heck does Iron Maiden have to do with Hybrid Blue Gills?

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I'm down spark. TJ I have some other summertime plants. Been pulling all the cattails. Have some American Pondweed growing. I Was surprised to see the water FA take over like that in the winter. Thought it was more of a summer thing. I may let some cattails start growing on northern dam side. Along edge where they can be more easily controlled. Yep I'm still alive.


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FA will abate...for the specific species growing right now it has the right temps, light, and nothing to compete with it. I bet things will round out ok for you in a few weeks as vegetation starts catching up. Raking FA from my small ponds is a worthwhile exercise - get it out and break the growth, death, decay cycle and allow the plants to get going.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Originally Posted By: Yolk Sac

You've totally lost me. What the heck does Iron Maiden have to do with Hybrid Blue Gills?


I now have even more respect for you, Yolk. Color me amazed.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Feeding AM tonight. Huge difference already. Not sure if I helped or hurt by pulling and breaking up but now it's just tiny patches all over.


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John, when you rake out the FA, be sure to dump it below the dam. You'll reduce the nutrient load that way -- otherwise it will just wash back in when it rains.

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