Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations what slot size YP to remove

Loaded question right? Here's some info:

Pond goal - large panfish (seeds, redbreast, BG and YP)

Currently removing:

SMB: over 18" (they're just getting there this year - will adjust if needed)
BG: between 6-9" and any female regardless of size.
PSeeds and Redbreast: tossing them all back
YP: Don't know. I just want the big ones for purposes of variety of catch and eating.

I stocked 20 YP last year ranging in sizes from 6" up to 13"
I'm not sure if I should remove some this year or wait until next. Pond is 1/4 acre and doesn't have a ton of underwater spawning area's for the YP. In total it has 5 or 6 christmas tree's. There are some rock piles that I put out, but from what I'm reading, YP wont utilize those.

Any suggestions? Need more info? Let me know

I would not remove any YP until you see or are catching (angling or trapping and better both) numerous 3"-5" young perch. I suspect that since you have SMB as predators, the smallies will prey a little more aggressively on the YP as compared to the other sunfishes primarily because the YP are a slender bodied prey item and as such a larger morsel compared to sunfish. Large YP of 6"-9+" will also help 'somewhat' to reduce the numbers of small 1/2"-1.2" sunfish especially during colder water periods. IMO your main harvest long term, should be and will be BG. I suggest you just regularly monitor and keep a written record of the sizes and species that you are catching by all methods and remove those that appear to be the most abundant. When one specie and size group becomes prevalent then focus management effort on that specie and size. It would be informative if you would regularly up date us as your interesting fishery progresses. You can use this thread as an up date so all know the pond's background. Thanks.

With that being said, is there a problem with me removing the largest of the SMB? At say size limit x? My goal here is what I like to call an "ultra light" pond. I'm really not in it for the big bass. Thats not to say that catching the big bass aren't fun, I just don't think it's a realistic goal for this size pond.

This year I will be keeping a notebook and pen down in the gazebo that sits right next to the pond so I don't have an excuse when it comes to writing to size and weight. I'm looking forward to seeing the ratio's this year.

Last year I only really removed fish that were really low on the relative weight ratio scale. Trying to get bad genetics out of the pond.

Dense populations of smaller apex predators [LMB, CC, SMB, etc.] will help thin the ranks of your panfish populations, and fishery will be weighted towards producing trophy panfish. However, presence of BG in the fishery may prove a management issue moving forward as they are highly fecund and fish 4"+ are difficult for SMB and other limited gape fish to prey upon. I am not well versed in PS, but I believe they may also present a management issue with limited gape predators - per Dr Dave Willis research on SD sandpits with SMB/PS fishery - the PS did stunt and overpopulate, but SMB population WR improved. If you remove larger SMB, you lose your predators capable of removing up to 4" sunfish, and now that duty lands upon you through angling, trapping, seining, etc. The latter can become a intensive chore.

I don't think your YP are going to serve as a management issue - rather I'd primarily focus on how you're going to manage potential stunted BG and possibly PS populations. With that in mind, I'd think twice about removing larger SMB. I have several years of experience with BG/SMB/YP fisheries, and I personally have needed all the help I can get to help prevent stunted BG populations - and still had to trap, seine and manage through angling. To be safe, I suggest preparing for and developing strategies for a perpetual battle with stunted SF so they don't get too far ahead of you. I suspect you'll have an abundance of panfish to harvest - which isn't such a bad thing, if you can learn how to fillet a 4-6" BG. I've seen Condello carve em up that small - but he's a Dentist and has pretty good hands.

I don't know the habits of RBS - I think they are Fall spawners [according to Lusk Lepomis poster Pond Boss published years ago hanging on my office wall], and if so their YOY should remain very vulnerable throughout the Winter and suffer high predation rates. I don't think they will present as much a challenge as the other sunfish in terms of overpopulation management.

I am not certain one can achieve a goal of trophy BG or PS with SMB as apex predator without significant additional management tactics culling their populations. I would highly recommend feeding to help the panfish growth rates if you aren't already.

TJ,

That is something to think about... We shall see at what point I start taking the largest SMB out. The current idea of 18" I believe had something to do with mouth gape vs pounds of forage to sustain that fish (I'll look at my notes at home).

Though you do make me wonder if I should consider changing my "toss" size of BG from 6-9 to say 4-8. I only filet the ones that are 7+ inches. The other ones either get put in a live well for fishing the next day or tossed into the woods.

As of right now, I am feeding Aquamax 500. Thinking this year I may switch to the 600 though.

If you get a good digital tray scale and tape measure I'd harvest any panfish below 100 WR regardless of size. If you are getting BG up to 9", it sounds like you have something figured out. I would personally harvest those 4-7" BG that are iffy WR and leave the 8"+ to grow to trophy status - but that's just me. How are the PS and RBS doing?

RBS are hard to come by as I have to catch them to put in here, but they seem to do really well
http://bigbluegill.com/photo/redbreast-chunky?context=user

Seeds are typically pretty healthy as well. Few skinny ones that I have left alone, but this year may be different. Your comment about WR kind of hits home as it's something I've thought about across the board
http://bigbluegill.com/photo/20140505-161209-2?context=user

Both those fish appear pretty healthy to me, and are beautiful. I'd keep the scale and tape close by and record WRs. After a while you'll know just by handling them if they are above or below the WR you desire.

Again, consider keeping those SMB cruising...nothing else ounce for ounce battles like a 18" SMB IMO.

The original thought of SMB was that because of the smaller mouth, I could actually have bigger fish in the pond (to target the same size BG as a LMB would). I later realized that even though that might not be the ideal scenario, it was one I was okay with. I think SMB look nicer than LMB and I know they fight harder.

My pond is only a couple hundred feet from my front door. So going down every night with a beer, an ultralight and a few worms takes absolutely no effort. So if I remove 3-4 BG a night or say 15-20 a week then I'm at least helping the cause. If things start to get out of control well then we'll go from there. This will be only the second full year (started mid 2013) and I can't wait to see how the pond plays out this year

TJ basically agrees with me that BG will be the primary concern with maintaining a balanced fishery. It would have been easier to maintain balance if BG were in 'in the picture".
1. Feeding small sized pellets as you are doing my help keep smaller fish growing well and they will likely enter harvestable size category fairly fast 2-3yrs.

2. Larger SMbass may hopefully ignore the small pellet sizes 004 & 005. Some small SMB may learn to eat pellets.

3. Since you just about daily go to the pond this will make using fish traps a very good option for removing excess BG - sunfish. Build yourself a couple larger fish traps that have 1/4" or 1/2" mesh; one each maybe. Just larger versions of the Gee Minnow traps. Trap building ideas are also in past threads or PM me.

4. Many evenings of 30-45 min. of earth worm angling should provide catching 10-20 fish per night. This can amount to a lot of fish removal and monitoring fish data over the summer. Plus just weekly trapping should catch 1000 smaller sunfish per year. Your data of catches will be very informative

5. Your larger smallies experiencing frequent angling periods will likely learn to be hook shy so I suspect you will not catch them very often. Thus some me always be present.

6. Do you see any RBS eating pellets?

The RBS that is in that link coughed up pellets when I caught him. So I haven't actually seen him eating them, but he clearly was. I find myself catching the RBS a lot and I know I don't have that many of them. So whether they're just stupid or super aggressive I don't know.

What size BG are you suggesting to remove via the traps? My guess is the really small YoY fish should be kept for forage.

Also, I do think that at least some of my SMB are eating pellets. The hatchery I bought them from claimed they were feed trained, but I bought them as fingerlings and started feeding them pellets day 1.

Of course I agree with everything from Bill - Hell he taught me most of this stuff anyhow. Per Bill, my largest HSB [28"] and SMB [19"] are typically only taken by pellet imitation and live bait [GSH/BG/FHM nose hooked] and have become hook shy to traditional angling methods.

I have read that RBS are very aggressive, and readily take dry flies, too. So, that's a bonus in my book.

I would remove any under performing WR BG. Up to you to set that standard - 90%, 100%, 110%? I'd also measure the gape of your most common SMB and determine the largest size BG their gape allows. That will help you determine a size range for harvest/removal. Per my earlier post, I'd keep your thriving fish [high WR] in the fishery as they have obviously figured something out, and might become trophy fish for you down the line. Your .75# PS is a perfect example of such a fish. That's an impressive PS by anyone's standards - I'd grow him out and see if you can push a pound - that would really be something. If you catch a high WR BG, consider releasing it to see what it can become. Anything beyond the gape of a SMB which is under performing I would immediately harvest/remove.

Also, Condello/Cody have suggested in the past to remove 100% of all F BG caught - will help with population management. Hopefully they can expound on the merits/results of this strategy.

Thanks again TJ. I actually do the Female BG thing already thanks to reading info about it on here.

I've been doing that already for the first two years so hopefully I can really keep the balance of females down. But it is BG, so that wont happen.

The point of average gape size seems to make perfect common sense. If the main predators can't eat them and I want to manage them... well that's a pretty darn good way to figure out what I need to personally remove.

Lukkyseven,

I have a pond very similar to yours in both size and fish species. I have 50+ YP in the 6 to 8 inch size range and hope to get some good growth this summer. In addition to SMB for SF control, my hope is that the YP will nail a bunch of the small 1 inch BG and PS after spawn and help control them some. They sure did tear into the minnows in my pond right after I stocked them. Time will tell if that is true. Do you have a minnow species in your pond? If YP do actually help control small BG and PS, it might be something for you to consider when determining a slot size to harvest your YP.

Bill D

Removal of BG outside the gape size of the larger SMB is a very good size to be removing in addition to the female BG. Personally I would remove BG that are 70%-80% (1.5"-1.8" body depth)of the maximum gape of your SMB. I doubt very much that SMB are eating gape size BG very often when smaller forage or pellets are available. FYI my measurements indicate gape of a 17" SMB is very close to 50mm (1.9")vertical and 58mm (2.25") horizontal. A BG at 5.2"-5.5" has a body depth of 50mm.

I think one adult female BG (8") can provide all the YOY BG your pond will need for your goals. Plus you are going to have RBS, PS, and YP small fish.

Any thoughts on how big a BG an 8 in YP can eat? Can they eat a 1 inch long BG?

Bill,

Can you link the SMB gape size you are referring to? I thought it was on the forums somewhere, but me searching for it is coming up empty.

Also a quick link to the WR charts would be helpful too so I can bookmark them

Mouth gape of 8" YP is 21mm (0.82")horizontal. A 2.25" BG (TL) is very close to 20mm body depth.

Thanks Bill. I will hold out hope that larger YP are actually a predator to be counted in the equation, in the absence of a fusiform minnow population to distract them, when considering PS and BG as forage. Maybe it's not just the bass in the pond? Maybe larger YP also eat spawn from SMB and their own YP spawn and help control them as well?

YP will hammer age 0 SF, especially in the winter when vegetation diminishes - it's like hunting in bathtub for them. I don't have research to back this up, but I'd have to guess that at least 90 - 95% of my latest spawn BG and RES serve as forage for smaller SMB, HBCP, WE and YP during Winter and early Spring while vulnerable in size and reduced escape habitat exists. I have harvested some YP from the pond, and always find age 0 BG when filleting.

Lucky - another consideration is to reduce the amount of structure in your pond to help encourage SF predation. Eliminate dense cover and it makes a significant element of their population easy targets. I'm not suggesting you nuke the pond and make it vegetation free - rather, maybe think twice about adding a bunch of dense shallow cover if you were considering it. My pond is devoid of any structure except vegetation in order to help manage the BG population.

Lastly - if you experience SF population management issues, encourage SF predation by pellet feeding during periods of low light - predawn or dusk/twilight. These low light conditions favor ambush from SMB and YP, thus higher predation rates than feeding in bright conditions when predators are much more easily detected and avoided. Further, I've noted both my SMB and YP are far more active early and late during these low light conditions.

Hope some of this helps.

This has been fairly helpful. It's always nice to revisit your goals and plans to achieve them year to year. This should be a good year for the fishery. Hoping to pull out a seed over 1lb and see if we can crack that 14" mark for the YP.

A little closer look and YP predation of BG. Above we saw that an 8" YP has a mouth gape of 21mm. A 9" YP has a gape of 27mm. A 1" BG has a body depth of 6.5mm and a 1.7" BG has a body depth of 14mm.
A 1"BG body depth is about 31% of the gape of a 8" YP and 24% of the gape of a 9"YP. A 1.75"BG body depth is about 66% of the gape of an 8"YP and 51% of the gape of a 9" YP. A 10" YP has a gape of close to 30mm.

Good feedback Cody...thank you.

Here's the thread we have been collecting gape data in:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=29309&Number=389157#Post389157

The HSB gape thread had the discussion on YP gape
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=381551&page=2

Here are WR for several species:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=29038&Number=372789#Post372789

DNickolaus - thanks so much. Why I struggle to find stuff on these forums is beyond me...

Not a ton of SMB gape data I see. That's okay. I'll try to add to it this spring/summer