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Guys,

Is the 6500 ft altitude an issue with the inherent lower air pressure and less available O2?


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Bill, I thought it was an acre but after using a tool someone on here posted it looks to be about 3/4 of an acre.

Looks like this whole discussion might be a moot point because game and fish just told me they would most likely not approve a stocking permit for me to stock YP. To worried about the YP getting out into the watershed somehow. (we've all heard what those kingfishers will do wink )

I can get RBT easy. That is what most people stock around here. I sure would like to get a nice manageable pan fish in there with out LMB. Once the bass go in a can't continue to stock RBT because they will just get eaten.


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Argh! Just curious, do you know how warm your water will get during the summer?

What I am wondering is if there is a SF that can survive the cold but not successfully spawn, or rarely, in cold trout type water temps.

Last edited by Bill D.; 02/27/15 06:30 PM. Reason: Clarification

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SF = ???? Sportfish?
Captwho are there lists of fish hatcheries that service AZ or your region? Where do most "people" in your area get their fish to stock? Personally I would start with the FHM-GSH-RBT and see how that succeeds. Learn the pond characteristics. Then proceed accordingly.


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SF= Sunfish to this newbie smile Sorry for any confusion. Just trying to see if anybody had ideas on how to acheive his goal of having a panfish.

Cody Note: we should probably put SF in the Acronym Archive. I will get'er done.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/27/15 08:10 PM.

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I consider RBT to be a type of "panfish".

grin



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Originally Posted By: Shorty
I consider RBT to be a type of "panfish".

grin


So if RBT = PF, then its ultimately MmG ....(MMmm mmm good)

smile

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Originally Posted By: fish n chips
Originally Posted By: Shorty
I consider RBT to be a type of "panfish".

grin


So if RBT = PF, then its ultimately MmG ....(MMmm mmm good)

smile


Absolutely! smile



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Gentlemen. To be clear...RBT are not panfish! They are GF. Grilled fish! grin


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
SF= Sunfish to this newbie smile Sorry for any confusion. Just trying to see if anybody had ideas on how to acheive his goal of having a panfish.

Cody Note: we should probably put SF in the Acronym Archive. I will get'er done.


Thanks Bill!


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
SF = ???? Sportfish?
Captwho are there lists of fish hatcheries that service AZ or your region? Where do most "people" in your area get their fish to stock? Personally I would start with the FHM-GSH-RBT and see how that succeeds. Learn the pond characteristics. Then proceed accordingly.


Yes, we have several hatcheries. They are split up into warm water and cold water. Most of the trout are raised by game and fish but there is one commercial hatchery. I am thick headed, as Bill Cody has already observed, but apparently even I can learn. I am conceding and am going to do FHM-GSH-RBT.
I already have FHM, so what quantities should I use for GSH and RBT?


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Once the pond has aged with FHM & RBT for 4-6 years, then reassess the fishery to see if other fish are needed. It may happen that RBT cannot tolerate the hottest part of the summer in your pond.


+1


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Any added GSH prior to trout stocking should provide the brood stock needed to help diversify the forage fish base. A good start would be 4 to 8 pounds which is often 400-1000 shiners at 3"-3.7" although 100 shiners would also work okay as brood stock. Number of RBT to stock IMO would be dependent on how big they are at stocking size (see below).

I assume that your 1 ac high elevation pond will be nutrient poor with water visibilities of being able to see a white disk (Cool-Whip lid) or can lid 7 to 12 ft deep. How clear has the water usually been this past year? High clarity means the pond will produce fewer pounds of fish per acre. Literature indicates that natural productivity for trout water is in the range of 4 to 40 lbs of RBT per acre. Standard length of a 1 pound RBT is 13"-14".

Thus number to stock will depend on water clarity. Since you are not feeding pellets and if your water is clear with low productivity, you can stock higher numbers if they are 4"-6" long (50-100) and fewer if they are 10"-12" (40-60). The general rule for natural communities is the fewer that you stock will result in faster larger top end growth due to less competition and more available food for each fish. Feeding pellets to the trout will allow you to double or triple the stocking numbers. Others may have alternative plans.

If you stock this spring use the more conservative number and if this fall the higher number. Higher in fall stocking because minnows will have more time to create more forage fish. You can ladder stock, adding several every year or two, depending on harvest numbers and survival rates. Or just go with the original number and restock when RBT are old and numbers are dwindling. Restocking with larger trout will require the add stock are larger individuals of 10"-12" to prevent predatory loss of big trout eating smallest trout. Keep us updated to your progress. We are interested in this project since very few members here have a natural fishery of just trout and minnows. We can learn a lot from your experience.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/28/15 12:07 PM.

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Update. Further reading indicated that ponds of "average" fertility can NATURALLY produce around 200 lbs of trout per acre. That is 200 1 lb trout or 66 three pound trout. Thus there is a wide range of possible numbers and or size of RBT that can be grown naturally in this one ac high elevation pond. IMO water clarity will be a key factor as to the amount of trout the pond will support. Regardless, I would stock at my recommended numbers and watch what happens with their growth rate. Stock lower numbers and watch how they grow. If they grow quickly to 16"-18" after 1-2 years and minnows are still abundant, then fertility and pond conditions are good and the pond will likely support adding more trout. Again use a minnow trap during pond visits to monitor how many minnows the baited trap will capture. Be aware that bird and animal predators can take a toll on trout numbers; sometimes causing up to 40%-60% mortality.

If it were my pond I would consider having the caretaker feed the trout 1/4" pellets just once a week using 50 lbs of feed per year,; feeding at the same spot, same time each day. During mid-summer when water temps are above 70F the trout may not come to the surface for pellets. Once per week feeding will allow you and the caretaker to routinely assess the number and sizes of the trout to monitor overall how well they are doing during the open water season. From these observation sessions you will better know when to add, remove, and manage the trout numbers.

Provide the names of your local warm water fish hatcheries & possible web links and we will see if there are any panfish that might fit into your minnow - trout fishery.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/28/15 01:42 PM.

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Bill C - I'm still curious about the YP and RBT combination as this thread is questioning. I understand we don't know of anywhere it has been done, but it sure has me thinking of the possibility someday to try it.... And I am not trying to say that Captwho should do it.

My question is, where would the YP go after they spawn? Do they stay in the shallows with the brush (like the FHM)? At what age/size would they move into more open water to be preyed upon by RBT (hypothetically)? My thinking is that the RBT will prey on the YP, if they can. If LMB will prefer YP over BG, seems like RBT would too (more fusiform) if their living areas are ever in the same zone. Also, TJ has used HSB to "help" control BG, but do HSB prey upon YP too? Again, I am thinking RBT would be similar to the HSB situation.

Edit- also, stocking numbers of the RBT in Shorty's note above equates to something like 750 RBT per acre.... Wow....
Of course we don't know the size they are stocking which relates to pounds.

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Originally Posted By: fish n chips
Edit- also, stocking numbers of the RBT in Shorty's note above equates to something like 750 RBT per acre.... Wow....


Keep in mind that Sylvan is a small public lake in Custer State Park and that the harvest rates on RBT are likely very high.

We were there in late June and woke up to a dusting of snow one morning. I remember seeing male FHM minnows in spawning colors that were jockeying for spots on the north shore at during that trip. We caught a lot of RBT on that trip but most of them were hooked 30 to 50 yards off the bank using small spoons (lil' Jake's) that imitated minnows, long casts, light line, and fast retrieves were the ticket. Other folks fishing nears us using night crawlers and fishing much closer to shore had very little luck.



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Originally Posted By: Shorty
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
Edit- also, stocking numbers of the RBT in Shorty's note above equates to something like 750 RBT per acre.... Wow....


Keep in mind that Sylvan is a small public lake in Custer State Park and that the harvest rates on RBT are likely very high.

We were there in late June and woke up to a dusting of snow one morning. I remember seeing male FHM minnows in spawning colors that were jockeying for spots on the north shore at during that trip. We caught a lot of RBT on that trip but most of them were hooked 30 to 50 yards off the bank using small spoons (lil' Jake's) that imitated minnows, long casts, light line, and fast retrieves were the ticket. Other folks fishing nears us using night crawlers and fishing much closer to shore had very little luck.



I wondered how they could add that many each year without problems. I realize now I didn't read it right. It says "put and take", and I was thinking "hook and release". I figured somebody had to be taking them!!! duh, blush

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Ok, heres the only hatchery that has a site.
http://www.pkgills.com/
Pk gills

I also have bought feed in anticipation of feeding them.
40-60% predation? how fast are we talking about? What birds and what kind of animals hunt trout?


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IMO what predators you will have to contend with will depend a lot on your surrounding terrain. Please describe it.

Edit: For example, these guys live in Arizona...and, by the way, the guy's method of returning a trout to the water sucks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leF8X3PwdwM

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He pitched the trout in that way to feed the eagle and so he could get a picture of the eagle catching it.
Up to 40%-60% does not mean always a high rate of loss will occur, but it could be that high where fish predators are common. I'm not familiar with animals/birds that eat fish in the region of your pond. Check with AZ Game & Fish about possible fish eating above water predators.


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
He pitched the trout in that way to feed the eagle and so he could get a picture of the eagle catching it.


I know, but my thought was, what if the eagle didn't go after it? How many trout you willing to heave for a photo OP?


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A question about the FHM on PK GKGills site, isnt that a bluntnose?? just curious..


Capt.WHo if your willing for getting the importation permit ColdsSprings in Utah may be an option. ColdspringsTroutfarm I think is the name. It will give you more options, Like brook Brown and Tiger.


The Sylvan Lake is pretty cool, but gets a ton of pressure. This is where the "Water Mark" In national treasure 2 is at. The FHM population is unbelievable and may get its own thread at some point.
My first thought was "man there are a lot of minnows" then it was "man there has to be millions of minnow""


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It is mountains (6500 ft) with pine trees and juniper. There are several lakes about 30-50 miles away that have osprey, eagles and other predator birds. I saw a GBH once. For mammals we have raccoons, bobcat, mountain lion, bears, coyote, and other similar animals.


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"A question about the FHM on PK GKGills site, isnt that a bluntnose?" No - the picture is pretty representative of FHM. A bluntnose will typically have a more definite spot at the base of the tail and the dark lateral body band will extend across the gill and onto the nose of bluntnose. I will get a link for a good picture of a BNM.
http://www.dictionaryoffish.com/bluntnose_minnow.htm
Scroll down for a good bluntnose pic.
http://www.marietta.edu/~biol/biomes/streamtour.htm
Once you capture bluntnose and put them in a bucket of water the lateral band and caudal spot tend to become less noticeable.


Notice with bluntnose how the scales appear crowded and slightly different shape in front of the dorsal fin; an important feature for bluntnose. This feature makes them easy to identify when they are in a bucket of water.
http://gallery.nanfa.org/v/members/bbrown/bluntnose+minnow+dorsal+view.jpg.html

A local pond guy told be he has been loosing about one 10" bass a day to a bald eagle. Osprey are also good fish catchers. The eagle has removed just about all the bass from this small bass only pond.

If after you get the trout established and things are working okay and you still have an intense desire to have panfish, I would contact one of the warm water fish farms near you to see if they would custom raise for you some bluegill to 7"-8" long. Then ask if they would pick out for you just the males to stock into your pond. Expect to pay extra maybe double for these adult male bluegill. They need to be that big before you can positively identify the males. This was discussed in past issues of PBoss magazine by Condello, Baird and myself. There is also some past discussion of the technique on this forum. Adding just the males will provide the panfish option and none of the problems of panfish overpopulation in a trout pond.
BEHEMOTH BLUEGILLS IN SMALL PONDS. In Part I, Cody, Condello and Baird provide the necessary details of how to accurately sex bluegills as the first step to produce trophies in small waters. Mar-Apr 2006.
GROWING BEHEMOTH MALE BLUEGILLS; Part II. Cody, Condello and Baird present info about size, growth, stocking densities, and choosing proper male bluegills. May-Jun 2006.
THE ART OF MANAGING BEHEMOTH MALE BLUEGILLS. Cody, Condello and Baird conclude their three part article about raising trophy male bluegills. Discussed are best size of ponds, natural foods, supplemental feeding, angling implications, females only, and creative ways to use male bluegills. A standard weight table for bluegill is included. Jul-Aug 2006.



Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/01/15 04:31 PM.

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