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I have a pond in northern az at 6500 ft. I just started filling last summer and it is about 3/4 full. I stocked 5 lbs of FHM in july and there was at least 1 spawn. I wanted to do bluegill which would force me to do LMB. I also wanted to stock RBT first this spring to get a jump start. I am not an angler and this pond is for recreation with the family(swimming and fishing) but we have never fished (that's why I want BG). For ease of maintenance can I just stock RBT and YP and swim and fish as desired? I really like the idea of a good tasting fish like YP.


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Of course you can. You might not ever have a perfect fishery but the pond could be perfect for you. You stand a good chance of ending up with stunted perch but that would make them easy to catch. Maybe think about single sex lmb or tiger muskie if the yp do get out of control? Try to limit the yp spawning habitat. More specific goal or stating the limit of the want to manage may help get you the right answer.


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Striped bass taste like perch??? Any comment on that thought?


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I want to be able to have a group of people go up 3-4 times a year and fish great tasting fish and then swim in the clear water as well. If I stock it rainbow heavy with they keep the perch in check and will the FHM survive?


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I have no fishing experience so I am really open to anything. Especially if it's the easy way. wink


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I have seen fhm maintain a population with limited trout predation. 8 trout per acre. If there is no cover then the bait won't survive. Will there be vegetation or any cover??


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What is the depth? And look into hybrid striped bass if you don't want to worry about perch to stunt. The first fish in any pond do great. So you would not have to worry about stunting for several years.


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Depth is 15 to 20 ft. So I have FHM with plenty of cover, if I add 8 trout now, the yellow perch in 2-3 months, will the system balance out with the trout and people as top predators?


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The ice is off at 6500? Just 8 trout will get hook shy real soon and not enough to keep yp in control. Is your pond about an acre? Professionals recommend either a total poundage of fish per acre or total number of fish per acre. More fish means more catchablility fewer fish usually means bigger fish. So finding the balance or a way for the pond to balance itself is the key.


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Here's my view point on it. I stocked RBT and in great enough numbers they will eliminate the FHM. I think the RBT will then go after the YP as the next best option, if the RBT are allowed to get big enough(14" and bigger?). At the very least, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't want the YP fry. This leads to what I see as the problem: what are the YP going to eat if all the FHM are gone?

Are there any plans to feed?
Will the trout live year long?
Can you source feed trained YP?

If you feed, The YP will benefit but the RBT will be lazy from getting the easy meal and not manage the YP enough. You could periodically stop feeding and force the trout to go after the YP.

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For reference this is the pond background from an earlier post. "I am building a 1 acre pond approximately 20 feet deep. It will be a combination rain fed and well fed pond. I want it to be a combination swimming pond as well as fishing. I don't want to feed as this is a cabin property and only go up once or twice a month. It has a 6500 ft elevation with summer temps that can reach as high as 90 degrees but more often high 70s low 80s."

I have no experience with trout(RBT)&YP combo. Lots of YP experience but none with YP-RBT. Since you do not live at the pond consider not adding YP because they my overpopulate. If you lived there, you could control their numbers pretty well by removing egg ribbons and trapping young fish. There may be someone here with experience YP-RBT, but I don't recall reading about the combination.

IMO I would first stock just FHM and RBT. You have the FHM established. Number of RBT to not over-eat the minnow population is at this point unknown, at least to me. However I think you could stock at least 50-70 RBT per acre and still have good minnow survival. RBT esp smaller trout (8"-16") will eat a lot of insects in addition to fish. Wild trout can survive on invertebrates alone. In some natural trout fisheries a 16" trout is a pretty big trout. Trout will grow slowly on limited food. In mid-summer the FHM should stay out of the cool niche area of the RBT, thus during summer breeding season, FHM should repopulate well. FHM are very prolific if you have ample spawning structure. You should also consider providing a significant amount of cover as minnow refuge protection places to help protect FHM from predation. I would start by adding tree tops or brushy limbs along the shoreline with butt ends on shore so the branches could be later pulled out if needed. I would start with 30-50% of the shore lined with brush.

You can monitor the numbers of FHM by using a bread baited minnow trap when you visit the pond. Pay attention to how many minnows you catch, the time of year (water temp), and how long the trap fished in each trap set. Over time these data will tell you how well the FHM are surviving. You can also use the minnows as bait for trout fishing. Fish them in the deep water layer where trout are likely to be during summer. Measure the water temp as a depth profile to know how deep trout are likely to be in mid-summer (60-68F water layer).

Brushy unfishable areas along shore will catch poacher angler lures and may also deter trespasser poachers from shore angling and stealing your trout which is very likely to happen once the word is 'out' that good easy fish are in the pond. 4 wheelers & off road bikes go about anywhere these days.

Once the pond has aged with FHM & RBT for 4-6 years, then reassess the fishery to see if other fish are needed. It may happen that RBT cannot tolerate the hottest part of the summer in your pond. IMO it may be hard to know if the lack of RBT are due to dying or getting poached. Usually poachers are 'trash pigs' so if you see strange fish lures/gear on the ground or hung up in brush, or general people trash, such as smoke butts or disturbed surroundings on the property then you will know you have trespassers/poachers.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/26/15 11:46 AM.

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Hey Bill, where do FHM go during the winter? Seems like they would be vulnerable anywhere in the pond at that time. I get what you are saying about them spawning in a protected zone during the summer, but what about being overeaten during the winter? Would he add habitat for them somewhere during those times too?

I have added 40-60 RBT during winter months, and have no FHM left. However, I have other predators too, but was feeding too. This winter I have added no RBT in order to see if the fry population of some of the other species will be stronger ( -hopefully BG). It will be interesting to find out.

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FHM during winter will be where they are at during most of the year - shallows and among shoreline cover if it is present esp when predators are present. It is the trout that will change habitat locations during the year. My suggestion of using just FHM and RBT was what I would try first - no proof it will work. My guess is my idea will overall work better than FHM-YP-RBT. Every pond is different. Degree of success will depend on how much brush cover he puts down along the edges. This is why I suggested up to 50% or even more of the shoreline shallows lined with cut brush. Finely divided brush will fairly quickly degrade thus it will require annual spring brush placement. Ponds can be a significant amount of work. If his pond develops sizable weed beds then this can serve as FHM habitat. However most owners will not tolerate sizable weed beds in a recreational pond.

Increased winter predation of FHM is why I advocated significant amounts of brush lining shorelines. Trout IMO will be hesitant to penetrate deep into twiggy shoreline brush. Trout esp larger ones are not typically known as dense cover niche fish, and are unlike LMB especially smaller bass of 5"-8" who will readily penetrate dense brush/weeds chasing minnows. I think a majority of the RBT predation will occur outside brush lines. Under clear ice cover, I often see minnows scooting out from shoreline cover of the 2"-6" depths when predation is present. Shallowest dense cover will be the habitat that protects the FHM year round.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/26/15 02:10 PM.

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Bill, Sylvan Lake in the SD Black Hills has FHM, GSH, and is stocked annually with hatchery rainbow trout. I fished this lake in 2007 and there were FHM everywhere along the shoreline, surprisingly there was very little cover for the FHM to hide in.

https://denr.sd.gov/dfta/wp/tmdl/tmdl_sylvan.pdf

Quote:
The South Dakota Department of Game, Fish, and Parks (SDGF&P) last conducted a fishery survey in June of 1995. This survey consisted of using 4 ¾ inch mesh frame net sets, 2 quarter arc seine hauls with a 100 ft. x 6 ft. x ¼ inch mesh seine, and a baby frame net set with ½ inch mesh.

Golden shiners, fathead minnows, and rainbow trout were collected during this survey. Healthy populations of golden shiners and fathead minnows were sampled. A total of 106 fathead minnows and 130 golden shiners were collected.

Although Sylvan Lake is managed as a put and take rainbow trout fishery, only nine hatchery rainbow trout were captured by all sampling methods. Annual scheduled stocking of catchable rainbow trout and occasional supplemental stocking of adult rainbow trout maintains a viable trout fishery. On average, approximately 13,000
rainbow trout (catchable size) are stocked annually.



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Shorty- I take it there are no other fish species in that lake?

Bill- Thanks for the clarification of where the FHM are during the winter. Before now, never gave it much thought.

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No other fish species in the lake, the lake is only 17 acres and sits 6145 ft above sea level.



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Shorty adds that golden shiners GSH can diversity the forage food base and likely have good survival rates. Good idea. It may be a good idea to include at least 50-100 GSH before adding RBT. Shorty also notes -..."surprisingly there was very little cover for the FHM to hide in." Again good info. this is why I suggested to place the brush tree tops with butts on shore so they could be easily pulled out if they are not needed. Of course if you have too many minnows and shiners you can always add extra RBT.

When the trout are staying deep during summer the minnows will spend more time in more open water areas.

Captwho - whatever plan you follow keep us advised and updated to your pond fishery progress. We can all learn from your experience especially since it is a unique plan.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/26/15 08:04 PM.

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My pond is definitely evolving as I read and educate myself on the forum. Thanks to you guys, most of my changes are happening way before I act as opposed to making tons of costly mistakes and having to fix them.
If I have lots of cover, in your opinion will a significant amount of RBT maintain populations of YP over time if we are assisting in predation with our poles. The RBT won't spawn so I could do a put and take program but use the YP for table fare. If so, is that 50-70 per acre still a good number?

Last edited by captwho; 02/26/15 10:24 PM.

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Also Bill, even though I don't live there, the place came with a caretaker who is an old ex-marine/cowboy who guards the place against trespassers at the point of a shotgun! He's lived on the property for the past 20 years. Poachers will not be an issue! grin


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If both YP and RBT in the pond, are the RBT going to go after the YP or the FHM??? Do small YP go to deeper/colder water when the FHM won't?

CaptWho- If it came to it, would you be willing to kill-off the whole pond and start over if your ideas can't be managed in the future? I like the notions of thinking outside the box, but it does come with high prices/sacrifices at times.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I have no experience with trout(RBT)&YP combo. Lots of YP experience but none with YP-RBT. Since you do not live at the pond consider not adding YP because they my overpopulate. If you lived there, you could control their numbers pretty well by removing egg ribbons and trapping young fish. There may be someone here with experience YP-RBT, but I don't recall reading about the combination.


Stock WE with the YP and RBT to help control the YP?


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My guess is that 'captwho' will have a very hard time locating walleye and even YP in AZ. I think RBT may also be fairly difficult to source for him. According to Shorty's post above FHM and GSH can maintain breeder population numbers with the RBT. I have never read how well RBT will prey on YP. I doubt RBT will be good predators of YP due to different habitat niche behavior. I would not want to see someone stock YP-RBT only to have a pond infested with 4"-6" unharvestable skinny YP. It is a risk one has to IMO evaluate carefully. One might be able to catch lots of YP but are they usable as table food?. Overpopulated YP are also known to be a nuisance to swimmers; another disadvantage for the goals of the project.

I would like to read any research that indicates that RBT will effectively control YP.

Captwho may find that RBT will not consistently survive year round in his pond. He may need to periodically restock after summer fish kills and change his goals. YP then becomes a more viable option to be used with SMB, HSB or another predator based on what fish species are available to him.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/28/15 01:44 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
My guess is that 'captwho' will have a very hard time locating walleye and even YP in AZ. I think RBT will also be fairly difficult to source for him.


Just a thought...I see Smith Creek Fish Farm has RBT, WE and YP. Their web page says they will ship to "many other states." Not sure AZ is one. Captwho would need to check it out.


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They'll ship, but pond owner will pay very high prices. Only worth it for brood fish - few breeding pairs, IMO.


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I think their minimum on pond fish is 25 or you pay a premium for the smaller quantities. Guess "it depends" on how bad you want them. smile

Captwho,

Maybe I missed it, but how big is the pond?

Last edited by Bill D.; 02/27/15 05:41 PM. Reason: Clarification

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