Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,899
Posts557,051
Members18,451
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,407
ewest 21,474
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
3 members (Layne, Angler8689, anthropic), 616 guests, and 135 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
M
OP Offline
M
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
I have a 2.5 acre pond in Mississippi that is fed 24/7 by a spring. Flow leaving the pond is 24/7 also. This year the pond has been inundated this year with what I believe is coontail. The majority of the pond is in the 6-8 ft depth range with two ends that are in the 2-3 ft range. One shallow end also gets overwhelmed with lilypads.
I am trying to determine what the best method would be to control particularly the coontail as I have been able to control the lilies to some extent with Rodeo.
I understand that fluridone is effective but I am concerned whether the contact time would be adequate with the flow turnover and am concerned about the cost if it will be uneffective. What would experience tell you how to approach the problem? Water is ultra clear which is another problem contributing to the problem.
At present 90+% of the pond surface area looks to be about 18 inch deep with the vegetation. It is virtually not fishable. Any help would be most appreciated! I attached a pic showing the vegetation that I believe is coontail. It is not anchored to the bottom.



Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
Mully, you've got yourself a crop of variable-leaf milfoil (Myriophyllum heterophyllum) - not coontail.

BTW, I'd much rather do battle with milfoil than coontail.
The transient water may pose an issue, but probably not something that can't be overcome - but that'll depend upon some specific flow-characteristics.

To what extent does the pond's water exchange/discharge over a 5-day period? 10%? 20%? 50% transition?
Is there any desirable aquatic vegetation present that you want to keep?

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Originally Posted By: Kelly Duffie
..BTW, I'd much rather do battle with milfoil than coontail...

Kelly, that's interesting. Is the coontail harder to kill back, harder to keep killed back long term, or both?


AL

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
M
OP Offline
M
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
Kelly Duffie, I appreciate the ID on the plant. I purchased one of those big pond rakes and tossed it until I couldn't do it anymore. The plant does not appear to be connected to the bottom as a swipe of the rake pretty much clears the material from the bottom. I have not seen the plant extend above the water as some of the milfoil pics above would indicate. The underwater pics (bottom left and right) sure look like what I have.
I guess then, the plan will be to measure the inflow and/or outflow some way. Since the pond is about 2 hrs away, it will take a few days before I can make that trip. Thanks for the help and if I need to get any additional info I would appreciate that guidance also.

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
The milfoil will grow into new plants from any cuttings left in the pond. Is Triploid Grass Carp an option in your state?


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
M
OP Offline
M
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
Triploid grass carp can be stocked in Mississippi. I stocked about a dozen two years ago. I have not seen any in some time. They could have been eaten by something else or otherwise croaked. The pond has LMB, BG and CC. They were about 10 inches long when put into the pond.

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
What are the size of the largest LMB in the pond?


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
M
OP Offline
M
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
The largest LMBs we have taken were 7.5 lb and 6 lbs. I am sure they are few and far between. We have many BG of all sizes. I don’t know whether I should put this in a separate thread but my most frustrating pond problem is the fact that I ham having great difficulty raising CC. We purchased the property about 4 years ago. About 3 years ago I had 400 average 10 inch CC stocked. I began supplementary feeding at that time. I have never seen any CC feeding at the automatic feeder. We caught CC (C and R) for the next several months but the bite slowed to almost nothing. In late 2013 I purchased 600 fish and attempted to grow them in a large floating cage with another feeder. The idea was to grow them to near a pound and release them. Unfortunately I was not very smart on timing and didn’t realize they ate very little in the winter. The pond then froze over for a few days and obviously this took a toll on the fish. About half of them died after that event and the 300 remaining were released but did not look very healthy. Last spring I started another 600 5-7 inch fish in the pen. At about 10 inches I released them, all looking very healthy. Although they ate the feeder food while in the pen, I still have not seen any CC at the original feeder nor have I seen any evidence of any of them via bite. By the time the last bunch were released, the coontail/milfoil problem had become overwhelming, making the pond nearly unfishable. I am hoping that the fish are there somewhere but am at a loss as to finding them (or the previously stocked CC). I am tired of hearing that “anybody can grow catfish.” Not true!

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
My vote is those CC are in there. What baits have you tried? FWIW I have always had the best luck catching them when the water is warmer than 75 or so. Not saying you can't catch them in cooler water, I have, just that they seem to bite more aggressively for me in the warmer water.

Last edited by Bill D.; 02/26/15 06:21 PM.

[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
FireIsHot: Myriophyllum species seem to be more sensitive to treatments compared to coontail; i.e. they respond very readily to fluridone, endothal and some 2,4-D products. Coontail respondes to all but the later, but higher concentrations and durations are often required.

Mully: I don't check the board too often during this time of the year. Shoot me an email with aerial directions to the pond so I can scope it from above (I'd need the direction in degrees and distance from a specific road-intersection); and also a response to the previous questions.

To what extent does the pond's water exchange/discharge over a 5-day period? 10%? 20%? 50% transition?
Is there any desirable aquatic vegetation present that you want to keep?

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Kelly, thanks for the explanation.


AL

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 340
Likes: 3
D
Offline
D
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 340
Likes: 3
Mully,
Unless you are looking for a particularly sporting pond, if you catch a CC, eat it. Once they've been caught, they get smart. I fished a pond in AL regularly that had a lot of C & R. I usually had the line lightly in my hand and could feel them messing with the bait. They might take it and move it, but they were just playing with it and often if you try to set the hook too soon, it gets nothing. Or they spit it out and walk away.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
DN: interesting description of the CC's cleaver evasiveness.
My grandpa was a master cat-fisherman who made his own stink-bait (but that's another story). He would always fish for cats with pencil-corks (less resistance) and no weights of any type; and he never fished tight-line style. He taught me how set my depth so the pencil-cork would stand nearly vertical with the bait resting on bottom. When the cork lied down horizontally, that signaled a "bite" since the cat was lifting the bait. He'd make me anxiously wait until the cork finally darted downward or started briskly moving sideways. His hook-sets were something to behold - and I quickly learned to NEVER stand behind him as he "crossed their eyes".
Regarding keeper-size; he told me that if they had whiskers, they're big enough to keep. grin

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
M
OP Offline
M
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
I finally got some spring flow numbers for my 2.5 acre pond. We measured about 60 gpm at the discharge of the pond at this time of the year. In the heat of summer it drops considerably due to evaporation and some lesser flow into the pond. If I assume the average depth is 4 ft then I can assume the pond holds about 3.24 million gallons. By my calculations then the pond would turnover about every 37.5 days. So ever 5 days would result in about 15% turnover. Big rains, however, would increase that. Hot weather could reduce that. I have no idea of any flow pattern so I don't know whether water away from a straight line between the entrance stream and discharge but I am confident that much of the water remains much longer in the pond.
I am very much in need of a solution for my milfoil/coontail problem and I am very interested in recommendations from you experts. Is my best (long term cost effective) solution to use one of the longer contact type herbicide or the quicker contact type? Which type? Is it a DIY thing or will I have to contract some help? Looking at the prices of some of the chemicals I'd hate to screw it up.
Kelly Duffie, I am attaching a Google Earth pic of the pond. The coordinates are at the top of it. It is located around 8 miles SW of Tylertown, MS. As far as which plants I want to remain, I am pretty ignorant of what I need. I spray the lily pads fairly frequently with Rodeo or 2-4-D but by midsummer, I am for the most part unable to fish it because the growth is so intense. I guess I am saying I like to have some for fish cover, but way fewer than I have now. When I spray I try to maintain some lanes to allow small boat passage with trolling motor but that pretty much fills in. I have several dead tall trees right at the water edge and wonder if it makes sense to drop one or both into the water for fish cover but am concerned as to whether this is a good idea.
Kelly and DN, I hope I find those CC. I don't know whether they feed any on the plants but I have yet to see any since that last release of 600. The weeds were heavy then, but I couldn't get a bait near the bottom but I have seen none (ever) at the feeder. Maybe after we get the plants under control they'll show up.
I'd also be interested in getting your thoughts on dye to reduce clarity and light. Any other options? Thanks again for all the help.


Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
I would copy your post above and PM or email it to Kelly. IMO he is the best one to answer your water retention questions. IMO since your pond has relatively slow outflow I think a relatively fast acting herbicide would be best. Investigate grass carp with a coarse screen or fish weir on the outflow. Use just enough carp to reduce weeds but not eliminate them. Add carp soon after weed herbicide dissipates. Re-assess number of carp after 3 full years and add about 1/2 as many of the initial stocking after every 7-9 yrs. You want to try and keep 10-20% of your weed coverage for optimum habitat.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/17/15 09:15 AM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
M
OP Offline
M
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
Bill, I did exactly as you suggested. I look forward to getting some good advice from Kelly.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
Let us know what Kelly tells you so we can learn some tips from the pro.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
Denis - See if you can get some better photos of the lilies. There are several types of aquatic lilies, and I’d like to know the specific species that is inhabiting your pond.
Also, you mentioned having coontail in addition to the milfoil, but I’ve only seen your photo of milfoil.
Are you absolutely certain that coontail is also present – and posing an issue?
Can you collect a sample and take a photo of it in your hand, just so we can verify its ID?

I saw where you’ve owned the pond for roughly 4 years at this point. Historical imagery indicates that the pond was dry in and around the period ranging from 2004 – 2007 (maybe earlier and later). It filled (again) at some point between 2007 and 2010. It’s tough to define the south shoreline due to tree-overhang, but my remote measurements put the pond at closer to 3 surface-acres.

I’d like to hold off on any potential treatment suggestions until the lilies are IDed, and the presence of coontail is confirmed.

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
M
OP Offline
M
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
Kelly, I continue to appreciate your help and hopefully I can respond to your comments. I am about 100 miles from the pond so I found a couple of pictures that will help get the lilypad variety issue worked. One is primarily just the large lilipads and the second shows the large lilypads and some smaller lilypad looking plants which distribute themselves to most areas typically near shore. Their growth can be retarded with Rodeo or 2-4-D.
[img:center]http://s265.photobucket.com/user/mullyden/media/Lilypad%20Pics.jpg.html?sort=3&o=5[/img]
[img:center]http://s265.photobucket.com/user/mullyde...?sort=3&o=0[/img]

Coontail vs. Milfoil - The vegetation that has choked the pond is shown on that first pic posted. I called it coontail because that is what a neighbor called it. I have been using both notations because the thread has coontail in the description. I have to take your judgement as to the plant id because I don't have any knowledge in this area (or most others!) All the stuff looks like the picture so from now on I will refer to it as milfoil. The part that somewhat confuses me is that the stuff I have does not appear to be anchored to the bottom as one of the pond rakes will clean it out to the pond bottom without any noticeable resistance. Also I have not seen it grow above the water surface. I am in Baton Rouge and the pond is about 100 mi away and I will for sure get an in hand pic as soon as I get back up there.
I have attached two additional pics showing how I calculated the area of the pond. The larger 3.7 acres includes the swampy tree area and the 2.5 acres does not include the tree area. The pics outline the areas. I hope we can assume assume the pond "starts" beyond the swamp but if not we'll have to deal with it I guess.
[img:center]http://s265.photobucket.com/user/mullyde...?sort=3&o=2[/img]
[img:center]http://s265.photobucket.com/user/mullyde...?sort=3&o=1[/img]
The imagery you describe is pretty consistent with the stories I have been told. In about 2006 or 2007 the prior owner filled in a path through the dam that the owner prior to that created. Bass/bluegill were stocked then. The owner that cut the dam had plans to do some revamp. Neighbors tell me that the pond was there 25 years ago because they remember swimming in it.
The pond is extremely clear. I had a total of 16 tons of ag lime spread (from shore) in the last few years.
Whatcha think?

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
The pics are pretty "fuzzy" lacking detail. The tall lilies appear to be American lotus, maybe not since the pics are poor quality. Are there in the fall brown flat cone type heads where the tall flowers on stems were, that have rattling balls in them? The 3/8" - 1/2" dia balls are seeds and produced by lotus.
http://www.uri.edu/ce/wq/ww/Publications/RIDEM-nellut.pdf
http://www.floridata.com/ref/N/nelu_lut.cfm

Some of the flowers looked like spadderdock lily.
http://www.mainevolunteerlakemonitors.org/mciap/herbarium/Spatterdock.php

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/21/15 11:59 AM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
The larger lily-type of plant is called Nuphar (aka spadderdock, as Bill mentioned), while the smaller lily-type plant is watershield; and the small elevated circular-leafed plant is pennywort (aka "dollar weed" when it grows on land).



MS is a cotton-producing state, so I'll presume that 2,4-D is "regulated" there as it is in TX (whereas an applicators license is required to purchase 2,4-D). If that's the case, do you have a pesticide applicators license?

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
M
OP Offline
M
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
I confirmed with MS extension office that no licensing or permitting is required for purchasing or applying 2-4-D for personal (non commercial) use. Exception is aerial spraying.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
That's good info to know. Thanks.
I should have asked earlier if the pond's water serves any utility besides fish & wildlife habitat - such as irrigation, livestock watering, etc.

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
M
OP Offline
M
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
Kelly, just fish and habitat. Now that the plants have been identified by you experts are you thinking that granular 2-4-D as the best approach to working the problem? I guess that would allow staged treatment to limit reduced DO. I do have a couple aerators in the pond to hopefully reduce that problem to an extent.
Please give me the thoughts on this. Thanks.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
I'm inclined to suggest topical applications of imazapyr (POLARIS) for any areas of watershield and nuphar that you wish to control.
For the milfoil, either NAVIGATE (a granular 2,4-D ester) or HARDBALL (a liquid 2,4-D acid/injected sub-surface) should provide decent results when applied while the plant is immature and actively growing.
Either option would require large-area coverage, rather than isolated "spot-treatments", since exposure-time should be sustained for 12-36 hours for optimum results. Such treatments should be made when sub-surface currents are nominal, and no rain-induced influx of water is expected for 48+ hours.
It's unlikely that topical applications of imazapyr would have any notable affect upon DO-levels since its effect on treated plants is very slow.
The potential for DO-issues associated with the milfoil treatments is a little less predictable. Ultimately, such treatments initiated before the plant has developed a high biomass will greatly reduce the potential for DO-issues, especially under cooler spring time water-temps.
I'll email the labels for all three products to you for review. Feel free to reply with any questions.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by Rainman - 03/28/24 02:53 AM
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by Mark Dyer - 03/27/24 10:18 PM
Reducing fish biomass
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:17 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:05 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:02 PM
Questions and Feedback on SMB
by Donatello - 03/27/24 03:10 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by Bill Cody - 03/27/24 10:18 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by esshup - 03/27/24 08:47 AM
2024 North Texas Optimal BG food Group Buy
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/27/24 08:15 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by esshup - 03/26/24 10:00 PM
Freeze Danger? - Electric Diaphragm Pump
by esshup - 03/26/24 09:47 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5