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#13173 10/07/05 07:39 PM
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A hybrid sunfish is a fish that was created from the genetic crossing of usually two species of sunfish such as bluegill & green sunfish or bluegill & redear sunfish. Other versions of hybrid sunfish occur both naturally and those crossed with human intervention. This first set of offspring, that are commonly referred to as F1 generation, usually exhibit growth vigor.

Bob Lusk in another post summarized what hybrid fish are and what is typically produced when two species are reproductively crossed. His perceptive description follows and I reproduce it here with its own topic and title so it will not be hidden deep within another topic.

Bob Lusk says "Here are a few facts for everyone to understand.
When you cross two species, a hybrid is created. In most scenarios, hybrids can't reproduce. (donkey x horse = mule)
In the case of hybrid sunfish, some of them can reproduce (not all). Their sex ratios are not normal...approximately 95% are males. That also has an impact on reproduction.
Know this...they cannot reproduce to what they are, it's genetically impossible. They also cannot reproduce to what they were. That's impossible, too. Each offspring carries the genes for both parents, which is a mixed pool. Some genetic traits are dominant, others aren't. When fish have a mixed pool, they reproduce and only give a mixed pool, they can't be anything 'pure', ever. They can't become their parents. It's akin to unbaking a cake. That cake will never be the ingredients. It is now a cake.
Hybrid vigor degrades after the first generation. When hybrids cross, dominant traits change. Hybrids cannot reproduce and become what they were. They become a second generation cross with a mixed bag of genes from the parents. Where the second generation crosses, things become confusing, genetically speaking. Those generations are called 'Fx'. Take a bag of red and green confetti, and mix it with a bag of blue and yellow confetti. The 'hybrid' bag is a pretty, even mix of all colors. Take the hybrid bag and mix it with another bag of totally different colors. What do you get? A completely mixed bag of different colors, none of which is the original. It has traits of the original, but isn't. With hybrid sunfish some of those colors are dominant, some of the behaviors are dominant.
Fisheries biologists who recommend hybrid sunfish also recommend stocking no other sunfish with them. That's because the hybrids which do reproduce tend to go at it with other species, such as bluegill, etc.
Typical hybrid sunfish sold in the U.S. are crosses between male bluegill and female green sunfish.
Deb tells us that the Georgia Giant is a proprietary blend of genes. She has no idea what it is. Two people know that blend, and they aren't talking. They have a trademark, a product and loyal base of followers. They have a system they like.
Other companies have programs and systems that they like.
It's pretty funny, traveling the country and meeting different biologists and pond management people. The business is a hybrid. We live in different regions, doing what we do. And, most of us think we invented the business. I'll never forget about ten years ago, when I found out about a pond management guy in South Carolina. I called him. We both were a bit shocked. He pretty much did what I did, and as we compared notes, we were similar. Throw some testosterone into the mix, and we could have been like two roosters, taking credit for all the chicks. Pond management, as a business, is a cottage industry. Individuals learn what they learn, then preach it and prove it. But, the biological principles are the same.
We all operate under these scientific principles, with different opinions. That fact makes pond management an art.
As consumers, you get to pick.
Much of this thread is based on hearsay, with a limited understanding exactly how genetics work, bolstered by other hearsay as evidence.
Deb has explained it well.
If someone has green sunfish, they didn't come from the hybrids. It can't happen. Hybrids are hybrids, cake is cake." Reference: http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=newtopic;f=5


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No replies to this back in 2005.

Hybrid Lepomis brings about a lot more discussion in 2015 than it did back then!


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Thanks for bringing this back Snrub. Answered a lot of the questions I have.


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I've been reading a bunch on hybrids, and I wonder if the Georgia Giants are not a three way cross of GSF, BG and RES.

That is just a pure guess, but after reading the article about 3 way crosses, it seems that would marry some good characteristics of the three fish. Seems the three way crosses performed just fine.

I would like to get the size of the RES with the aggressiveness of the GSF. Basically have a redear that is easy to catch.

[url=forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=389096#Post389096]RES-GSF hybrid thread[/url]

Last edited by snrub; 01/31/15 04:09 PM.

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Originally Posted By: snrub
I've been reading a bunch on hybrids, and I wonder if the Georgia Giants are not a three way cross of GSF, BG and RES.

That is just a pure guess, but after reading the article about 3 way crosses, it seems that would marry some good characteristics of the three fish. Seems the three way crosses performed just fine.

I would like to get the size of the RES with the aggressiveness of the GSF. Basically have a redear that is easy to catch.

[url=forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=389096#Post389096]RES-GSF hybrid thread[/url]


I have been reading some on hybrids as well. Not near as much as you though I'm sure. One thing that jumps out at me is the cross really only works well in one direction. By that I mean for example BG x GSF requires a male BG and a female GSF. Female BG and a male GSF doesn't work very well. Seems that is the case with every hybrid cross I have read about. Have you read anything where both ways work? If no, any idea why it only works one way?


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It works in the opposite way in some situations but often it requires the eggs and the milt to be fertilized artificially by human intervention. That is the way it is with GSF male x RES female. It does not seem to work in a pond setting but can be done in a petri dish. It also produces the most males with like 95 or 97 percent. The other way around, RES male x GSF female can work in the pond setting but is about 70 male - 30 female offspring.

Lots of articles I provided links in this thread:
RESxGSF hybrid


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Ok, I am with you so far, but what about only in a pond and no lab or petri dishes allowed.

In a pond/lake setting, is it the male of one species with the female of another that usually will cross? The opposite doesn't or infrequently happens? Correct?

(Now bear with me on this cause it's kind of like a "who's on first" question.) I am wondering if it has anything to do with the fish coloration. Is it the coloration of the male of one species can induce the female of either species to spawn, while the male of the less desireable coloration species lacks the color required to induce the female of the other species to cross? Or could it be courtship ritual? Or something else?

To summarize....As you point out with your petri dish example, the opposite cross can occur. What is it about the natural cross that makes the male of one species able to induce the female of both species to spawn, while the male of the other species cannot?

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/31/15 08:48 PM. Reason: Clarification

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In one of the articles they thought color was a factor because they cut off the red tab on a RES and were able to consummate the deal with a cross they were not able to before.

But there is more to it than that. Some crosses they made in the lab created fish that were deformed or did not live past yolk sac stage. So it is a complicated deal.

I only know what I have read and I forget a good share of what I read. So I just pick up bits and pieces as I go along. Read the articles I linked to and you will know more than me, which still may not be a lot. Some of it is pretty interesting, some of it is just dry and tedious research.


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Thanks man and good reading!......sometimes I am asleep by the time I get past the two pages of references/credits in some of the articles! smile

I'll let you know if I find anything definitive.

Edit: If it is anything like the folks I work with everyday, they will tell you what they see, but always hedge when it comes to actually drawing a conclusion.

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/31/15 10:56 PM.

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The proper way to go about this is to buy fish from a reputable fish producer. That is if a person wants good end results. Then he is likely to get predictable results from good genetics.

But end results are secondary to me. For me the learning process is the primary end result. Fishing is secondary, though it has become an enjoyable pastime.

For 98% of pond owners the best thing to do is buy their stock. But occasionally there is some species or hybrid that is not readily available. Or for some of us the experiment is the end result. For those of us with special interests (or with too much time on our hands or too little to keep us occupied), we have to experiment.

Last edited by snrub; 02/01/15 10:32 AM.

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This thread was placed in the HBG topic in the Q&A Archives.


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