Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Corrective stocking A chance to start all over again...

Due mostly to lots of time spent on this forum I've taken the plunge and am in the middle of a reset on my little pond.

Around 3/4 of an acre, average depth of 12 feet. Deepest point around 15.

Currently stocked really really badly. The PO stocked Channel Cats and I've been less than successful at getting them all out. Not sure how many are left but it's several, and they're all larger than 5 LB at this point. Apex predator no doubt about it.

Small populations of LMB, BG, GSF. Maybe a couple of BCP.

Overall just not a very viable fishery. No structure to speak of.

I currently have a siphon running, has been for a few days now. I'm going to take it down as low as I can with the siphon, then finish with a pump. Seine out as can be done then let the little bit left freeze hopefully killing anything left.

My plan is to stock YP and FHM this spring, followed by SMB this fall.

That's it.

I'll need to get structure in place while the water is down. Planning to aerate as well...

thoughts?

Hi Dale

First off, I love your target species. Many of us can help you with the stocking strategy and management of these species. Starting over - good, I encourage it. One of the benefits of small pond management is the option of starting over quickly and cheaply. I did something very similar this fall to a 1/3 AC pond. Draining and seining is a great start, but I hesitate to trust the winterkill alone to clear the remaining fish. I'd recommend hydrated lime treatment this Spring to the existing water in order to ensure you're starting tabula rasa. Spike the PH to 12, watch them float. Net out whatever surfaces and fill it up again.

Think about introducing multiple forage items, like crayfish, a shiner species like SFS, maybe BNM along with the FHM. I'd recommend getting pellet trained fish to help relieve pressure off the forage base.

Will you stock any RES to help hammer snail population? Bonus WE? Single sex BG maybe if no RES? Few HSB?

TJ I'm definitely going to add some HSB - by far my favorite fish to catch - but I figured I'd wait a year or so to allow the base to get established. Gotta love some WE as well...not sure I can get them from the supplier in small numbers though.

I wouldn't mind RES at all...have them in the big pond. I assume their breeding pattern shouldn't give any grief to the YP?

So if I lime the remainder, given that there will be little water left, it should be safe to assume that by the time I'm full or close to it that my PH should be back to normal I assume? No familiarity with liming hence the question.

I would echo everything TJ has said, especially regarding species....BNM and SFS would be great forage. Might consider adding some big rock for cover/breeding substrate for the minnows/'dads.

Since you're going to the effort to reboot with these species--don't leave the fish kill to chance--drain it down as far as you can and nuke the remainder with either hydrated lime or rotenone. Just a few LMB left alive could ruin your budding YP/SMB fishery.

And don't even get me started on what happens if any GSF survive.

PH will drop naturally in a week or so, but refilling the pond after treatment will dilute enough you won't have anything to worry about. Test the PH to ensure it's returned to normal levels, just to be safe, but you'll likely be fine.

If you elect to stock RES, I'd consider them this Spring if they're available along with stocking your forage base [FHM, BNM, SFS]. I'd personally wait until Fall to stock YP and SMB and allow forage base some time to get established. You'll have larger fish from which to choose, I'd go with largest you can afford - hand select them if possible. I hesitate to stock YP in Spring as Cody says they could be 2014 runts, males, inferior fish leftovers. I would personally try to get pellet trained fish.

QTY dependent on your goals, but I'd start here:

250 RES
100-150 YP
25-50 SMB

Summer 2016

5-10 HSB annual or biannual ladder stocking max 30 fish

10 WE annual or biannual ladder stock dependent on harvest and goals for these fish

You probably had this already in hand, just some initial thoughts on stocking strategies for you. I hope this is helpful, I'm really excited about your project. Cody will likely be along soon to correct me in a few areas. Stocking qty will change significantly depending on your goals, as you are aware.

Ditto on nuking it with hydrated lime. Why take the chance??

tabula rosa? Dammit TJ, you sent me to wikipeida again.

DL let us know your fishery goals for this pond, specifically, and we can adjust the stocking parameters accordingly. Pretty general numbers cited above.

Good to hear from you again, you need to check in more often. I'd love to know what's going on with the main fishery...hope all is well!

Dale - I'm anxiously awaiting an excuse to provide some more unsolicited guidance regarding your fishery...so answer my questions already!

TJ - sorry for the delay in response - inches of ice and snow have somewhat slowed this project down. Although I just this morning traded for a 3" multiquip trash pump powered by an 8HP Honda, so as soon as I have ice-off I can finish draining.

Honestly goals for the pond is just to have something different. I want a reproducing population of both YP and SMB if possible. You can't really catch either species around these parts.

The main BOW is doing great...ended up taking 400+ BCP out in 2014 without a single stunted or even skinny one caught. So far so good. Very healthy populations of LMB and BG. The RES are few and far between as would be expected at this point I suppose.

Yo Dale - jeesh, bout time man!

Nate does a lot of cool water species stocking all over IL, I think YP and SMB will perform well in this fishery - and additional species if you want. If you want to discuss and species selection [forage and predator] and stocking strategies, just holler. YP, SMB, HSB in low qtys, and bonus WE would be possible, depending on your goals of course. Few RES to clean up snails - and I wouldn't be surprised if this became your preferred fishing bow eventually.

Here to help.

PS: Good to hear about your primary fishery going well - please keep us in the loop regarding your BCP management techniques, challenges, and results. This is especially valuable information for the forum body of knowledge.

I'm hoping to have it drained down, seined out and killed off by mid-march. That would allow a good 30 days at least for rain to refill partially...I can always pump out of the big BOW if I get impatient. Then it's a matter of stocking up the spring forage and letting them do their thing.

I'm going to build some structure sections now and have them staged so I can strategically place them after the draw-down.

Update - what a pain in the neck this draining process is, especially in the spring!

Been running the pump on and off, making progress. I was hoping to have it down to seining level by Sunday.

We're going to get something around 2 inches of rain in the next 24 hours.

Gotta love spring in the Midwest.

On a positive note, I found a good source for hydrated lime that doesn't want to charge an arm and a leg for it - no pun intended.

post some pictures of what you seine up ........

No pics yet, we didn't seine this weekend. We did however start pulling smaller fish out, just via dipnets. The smaller fish were getting hung up in the algae along the edges as the water level dropped, so we made a lap around just scooping fish out.

Transferred probably 100 over to the big pond. Nothing larger than 3". Mostly just having fun with the kids. Put a few of the cooler specimens in the aquarium in the house so the kids can watch them.

Species were LMB, BG and GSF (yes I'm in the minority I know, I love those little fighters).

I'm planning to time the draining process so we can seine this Saturday, weather permitting.

Update - 2 pumps running now. Looks like Saturday seine party is on. I didn't realize how vertical the banks were, and for how deep. I'm down 6 feet and it's finally starting to decrease in surface area.

Pics to follow.

Yeah I was kidding myself...STILL too deep to seine. The banks are darn near vertical for the first 7-8 feet.

Moved the trash pump down the bank 6 feet or a bit better, replumbed using 3 inch PVC the whole distance, and NOW we're moving water.

here's what I was using:



Re-plumbed to this and more than doubled the water movement ratio:








Of course it's going to rain this week so I'll have to do a little recovery pumping...but I'm down far enough now that another 10 hours or so and she'll be ready for seining. I'm going to time it so that we do it on Sunday as that looks like the best day weather-wise.

Update - the drawdown and seine portion is complete! Finally managed to get enough water out to seine it without drowning. Went swimming in chest waders twice over the weekend, which was zero fun. That was some coooold water.

Didn't get a ton of pics of the actual fish removal, given that when we finally got it done there wasn't anyone else there and I was a bit busy.

A few surprises:

1 - my pond is deeper than I thought. I've thought for 10 years after an initial depth check that it was in the 15-16 foot range. This is not correct. There was a deep pool on the north side that was closer to 18-19 feet. That's where the fish all ended up.

2 - there weren't as many catfish as I expected. We got 6 big CC's out, weighing between 14 and 18 lbs. Big fat ole cats. My buddy took all of them and released them in a pond he has a BG issue with, to see if they will help out. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a couple more down in the mud that'll pop up when I kill the rest off tonight.

3 - My HSB stocking wasn't a total loss! I stocked 60 3-4 inch HSB's in there 3 years ago. Out of 60 I seined out a grand total of 1 HSB - around 14 inches long. A healthy looking HSB...he must've been the fastest one of the batch.

4 - I'd forgotten how hard it is to seine a pond. I felt like I'd run a marathon with lead weights tied around my ankles when we finished last night.

Probably took out something around 300 fish all told, LMB, BG, GSF, CC, BCP and one lonely HSB. Along with a good crop of bullfrogs and crawdads as well.

Some pics of the pond...



Ended up with a East/West shallow (relatively speaking - it would be at about 12 feet at full pool) ridge running the entire length of the pond. Handy for walking on. The south pool was smaller and shallower, the north pool larger and much deeper.



My boy with one of the 15 or so big BCP we removed. All are scheduled to be released to the grease in the next week or so.



Quite a bit of bottom 'structure' (read 'Garbage') - we spent a good bit of time filling trash bags. I guess given that the bottom hasn't seen the light of day in 22 years or so it wasn't all that bad. Unusual findings included a mailbox with some paper still in it (unrecognizable but guessing it was mail) an old starter off a tractor, and a knick-knack shelf.



The best part of the process was getting the kids involved in 'rescuing' fish...we set out 5 fish traps and probably pulled out 300 or better 2014 year class BG and GSF - maybe 20 or so 2013 year class. The kids had a ball.

The silt isn't as bad as I'd expected....2/3 of the pond has little to none. The bottom of the deep pool and several areas on the East end have some deeper spots. Going to try to get a track-hoe in there in the next couple of days just to get some of it out.

Good stuff dlowrance, especially getting the kids involved.

Some pics of the actual event....taken from the safety of the shore...









A Bald Eagle checking things out...we had a full work stoppage when he showed up. A fairly rare occurrence around our place.



Attempt #1 - this was right about the time I filled the chest waders with slightly-more-than-freezing water.



Surveying my domain...



Just prior to going in too deep...

Wow, does that ever look familiar! Well done, Dale - I hope my seining days and slogging up those silty slopes are numbered.

So, now what? Are you going to nuke it with hydrated lime? What's the proposed new fishery?

I remember that too - quite a process. We cleaned out a small (.1A) pond at a previous residence. It had 2 7lb bass and a huge snapper. The one thing I learned was don't wear boots - wear regular sneakers/tennis shoes!

Dale- That looks like fun and a whole lot of work right there! I bet the kids were in heaven.

I find it best to seine barefooted and in trunks - no getting stuck in the mud - but water temps have to cooperate.

What about bullheads and large turtles?

We simply don't allow those "types" on our grounds. Josh has a perfectly suitable pond for organisms of that kind.

Good call

TJ - nuked it last night, but I'm afraid my calculations were off as no floaters as of yet.

Assumptions - to raise the water to lethal levels (12 or better PH) I need:

220 lbs of lime for 26,415 gallons of water

(based on 100kg/100 cubic meters at 1 meter depth)

There were 2 pools left, the small one was 15 feet wide, 30 feet long and an average depth of 2 feet. Calculating the volume of an ellipse takes me to 471 cubic feet. 7.5 gallons per cubic foot = 3532.5 gallons of water. Assuming standard alkalinity (I did not check) I should need 30 lbs or so. I added 100 lbs.

The 2nd pool was approximately double the size of the 1st. Simple math shows I need 60 lbs. I added 200.

I immediately had small fish piping and/or jumping out of the water. That told me I was on the right track. But no floaters this morning. I'm making the assumption that the cold water is inhibiting decay and thus they're all on the bottom.

Anyone want to poke holes in my math? My intention is to buy test strips today and check the PH - it'll be 24 hours after application. What should I expect to see, I'm assuming around 10 or better still? It hasn't rained so volume is the same as when applied.

The tadpoles and turtles are flourishing! In my attempts to diversify my fishery, I have been regularly seining the old creek on the property and catching a ton of I-don't-know-whats. Think I got a good start on things. I didn't want to be selfish, though, so in my attempts to improve that unsightly clear water you have at your place, and hopefully knock back some of those nuisance walleye and smallies, I've been introducing those same I-don't-know-whats in your ponds as well. You are welcome, sir.

Well something certainly went wrong...partial kill in both puddles but not complete in either one. I set traps in both overnight and caught fish in both.

So back to Menards I go, and I'm going to double apply. At this rate I'll have more $$ in Lime than I do in fuel to run the pump to drain the pond in the first place.

I'm guessing my volume calc was off, although I can't figure out how. I'm also trying to kill GSF fry, which are notoriously hardy.

Update - had the excavator come in and remove what much he could reach, as well as dig me some deep holes just for fun.





He didn't feel comfortable going down any further and honestly given the depth of the pond I wasn't too worried about it.

I'm going to set some more structure and start the siphon this weekend to refill.

I just joined and I'm reading through posts. I would love to see an update here. I am also planning a smallie pond in the northern part of the country and could use all the info I can get. Hopefully you will let us know more about the food chain you have planned?

Somehow I missed this thread earlier.

Did you get everything killed out ok dlowrance?

Things are going mostly as planned....the pond is about half refilled after the clean-out project. I could start the pump up and finish refilling but at this point I'm not terribly worried about it.

I'm hoping to get the forage fish in it within the next week or two. The SMB won't come in until the fall.

Snrub - not exactly. After using 2 different doses, one being twice the calculated amount and the next being 4 times the calculated amount, I ended up killing everything....with one exception.

Anyone want to guess what survived that amount of lime?

1-2 inch GSF. Them little critters are TOUGH.

The larger ones died along with apparently everything else, only the small ones remained. I seriously considered treating it yet again but decided if the little SOB's were that tough I'd let them stay.

The main goal of the restart was to remove the glut of top predators - CC's and a few LMB's - which was a success.

Some progress pics....coincidentally had to replace some tires and wheels off of one of the tractors (calcium chloride is REALLY hard on steel) and decided to try an experiment.

In addition to some standard U shaped SMB beds with larger rocks making the 'shelter' area and gravel in the bed, I decided to try making some raised beds with the tires and wheels...







Not sure of their effectiveness but I can say that if they work the odds of them getting silted over is lessened greatly.

Tires and rims....ouch!! ($$$$)

Placement looks good, though!

You got that right Sparky...first experience with buying brand new tires and wheels for the rears on one of the tractors...it was downright painful.

I varied the depth some on all 4 just to see if it mattered...shallowest will be at 3-4 feet at the actual bedding area, deepest will be 6 feet or so. From reading here that seems to cover the optimum range of bedding depths for SMB.

Ouch is right. I'm glad someone told me about rimgard, (beet juice made in Michigan) hopefully my rims on my John Deere won't corrode as fast.

canyon - that's what I had the tires filled with this time...the stuff is a little pricey compared to Calcium Chloride but it's worth it in the long run assuming you plan to keep the tractor for a good while.

I wouldn't let the green sunfish survive.

Honestly, I hate them so much that I would consider the most drastic measures possible to get rid of them.

If you get through with all of this work renovating and they ruin your fishing, you are not going to be happy in the least.

Consider small tactical nuclear weapons LOL.

Ronald

No worries there Ronald....I like the little guys. I know I'm in the minority on this board but I find them scrappy and fun to catch.

Hey now....without GSF we wouldn't have HBG!

Rotenone works well on GSF.

Who deals rimguard in the area? I am going to have to put rims and tires on my tractor in the next year or so...

Also if you ever need hydrated lime again Home Depot in Alton stocks it for around $7 a bag. I don't remember which part of macoupin county you were in to know if that's closer than Menards in Springfield though.

PJ's in Carlinville does - that's where I get most of my tire work done.

I'm definitely closer to Alton than Springfield, but I work in Springfield so it's more convenient...sort of...

What about the weighted "foam"? When I looked into loading the tires in the tractor that was another option. No sloshing, no rusting. But it wasn't cheap - about the same price as a tire.

I've seen windshield washer fluid used a lot.

Alright good to know, just have to find a pair of rims for it, 24x13's are an oddball size....

My guy here locally doesn't do that - and based on what I've read that's a real nightmare if you have to repair the tire. The beet juice is messy to drain and refill - but the foam is darn near a one use deal if you have to bust the rim.

Update to this post can be found here:

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=489853#Post489853