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#397966 01/18/15 11:54 AM
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Pond Gurus,

Newbie to the forum here but look forward to picking your brains. I have purchased some property in NW Arkansas. It is about 9.5 acres in total and relatively flat. The issue I am currently trying to get some expertise on is a surface spring that is right in the middle of the property. The picture I have included shows the spring in the center of the property. Because it is pretty flat the water sprawls out from the center but eventually exits to the NE into the creek. Currently it spills about 60 gal a minute into the creek and has for over 7-8 years.

I would like to excavate below grade at the spring head to create a catch pond that still overlows into the creek. The main reason for this is to dry up the sprawling and tighten up the edge of the water. It is going to be used for agricultural purposes. if there is any "fall" from the spring head to the creek I would say it is less than a few feet. There is a moderate amount of grass and scrub growth within the wet areas(Aprox 1 acres worth) that you cant brush hog due to the mud.

My question to you fine folks is how would you tackle this project? My un-educated plan would be to clear the brush by what ever means necessary to see if I can locate the spring head, then flag out a border and start excavating. If I can dig out the current exit deep enough so that when I start pulling out material it can hopefully be a bit below grade. I have a few places that I can put the excess material but do not want to berm up the edges much.

What are the things that I should look out for when planning. I'm thinking size of excavator, mud and traction. I'm trying to go into it with the best plan possible and to avoid making any really expensive mistakes. I am planning this from a distance as I am currently stationed in San Diego and wont retire for 3 more years. We are planning another trip out there as a family May-July. I will try to post more pictures below some of the were too big to attach.

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Here are some more pic's

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Pretty good problem to have


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And to be clear you want to do the work yourself or sub it out?


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Lots of variables that affect this project as it unfolds, so planning is tough.

The first thing I would do is get a an excavator in there as soon as possible and dig some trenches to get the water moving to the creek. The more you can dry up the area that will be worked, the better you off you will be. Drying it up can take awhile, that's why I would get that done soon. You will also be able to see (hopefully) where the spring is. There might be more than one. Try to get the trench to continually fall to the creek. It will make seeing where the water is coming from easier.

My gut instinct would be to create a trench of some sort that carries the water around the area that you want to work. Perhaps you even establish that pathway first, and get all the wet areas trenched to it. By keeping the water from entering your work area, you don't have to pump. Once you start digging, then you will find out how many more springs might be lower in the ground, that's when plans start to change,... and the fun (headaches?) begin.

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Agreed on the trench/ditch idea.

But first, get a laser transit and measure the amount of fall to the creek. That way you know how deep you can make the start of the trench/ditch at the spring site and still have enough fall to carry water to the creek.

If you can shoot grades this year and get the trench/ditch dug this year, I bet that it will be plenty dry enough to farm next year.

Once you remove enough dirt to get below the height of the creek you will have to pump water out to keep it dry enough to work. Dam up the ditch (temporarily), pumping water to the ditch from where you are digging. Once you have the pond dug to your specs, remove the dam. You can set the height of the pond by using a flashboard riser system for water egress from the pond.


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You will want an excavator that has wide tracks for low ground pressure (LGP).

Something like this:
http://www.operc.com/newsarticle.asp?id=360


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Yes I will be doing the work myself.

So for the excavation I will just deepen the current drain path(6" deep now)from the head to the creek(taking into account the fall from the head)? I am thinking this will give me surge/splash capacity when I am excavating the main pit as well as allowing for greater drain capacity. I would expect that the main excavation site will fill with water pretty quickly and will make removing material from the site a soupy mess if this is not done.

In your experience how long would it take for previously saturated soil like that to dry up? I know there is likely a good bit of variables that can affect it. Thanks for all of your help by the way.

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So I just got off the horn with one of the local HE rental places and he suggested that I get a dozer be cause of the amount of soil I will be moving will be significant and doing it 1 bucket full at a time with an excavator will take for ever.

Is this something I should consider? My thoughts were that the size would be of the eventual pond would be too small to get a dozer in there. Currently the area of sprawl from the spring is about 1 acre in total size but I am trying to make the pond at least 1/2-1/4 of that, any suggestions?

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Is your goal to make the pond as small as possible?


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I am not a dozer guy. They will have to weigh in their thoughts.

You want to do it yourself, and that gets tricky. You mention that you don't want to berm the edges of the pond and that you have places to put it. With those parameters, it sounds like you need a trackhoe and dump truck. You don't want to pick that dirt up any more times than you have to with the bucket. Get it in the truck the first time and go.

Now with a dozer, you can push it out and away, but how far away do you plan to go? And do you want to disturb the ground between those two points? I imagine the distance pushed would be a crucial factor on whether a dozer can do that portion of it, or not, better than a dump truck/ track hoe combination. Also, will the ground get to soft even for a dozer? Will the springs be to great to keep ahead of them?

Renting? That can get real expensive fast, especially if you don't know how to operate it the minute you get on. When my dump truck took a need for repair, I looked into renting one. No one around here rented them, some kind of rules against it I guess. That left me with fixing it, and putting everything on hold. Luckily it worked out with the weather. Which is another thing for you to consider. Once you start getting that hole dug, you will want to stay on it, non stop till your done. Nothing more frustrating than working a day or more getting water pumped, etc and then work on it for a day and then quit. Repeat to work on it again in a week or so later. Or a storm comes thru and fills the whole thing up when you only had one more day to go.... ugh.

Whatever you decide on using, considering buying and use it around the place on various jobs first to get used to using it. Then resell when done, or not wink. Never know when you want another pond!!!!!

Forgot to add, that you could dig it out fast with a dozer and pile the dirt. Then treat moving that pile as a "many" year project as you need some here/there. However, once you get past about 1/2 acre pond, that dirt pile would become staggering, at least in my opinion.

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Yes as small as possible. I can't tell from my observations and the shape of the water logged areas if an excavator will be enough. As well as all of the excavated material has to go some where and moving it around with the bucket will be a heck of a task if it has to go more than 1-2 rotation lengths of the excavator.

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IMO If you want to maximize your tillable acres, capping the spring may be something you want to look into. It may even be less expensive than your current plan.


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You might need both the dozer and excavator. You definitely don't want to pick up the dirt twice, and moving it further than the excavator can reach by tracking with it in the bucket just isn't cost effective nor time effective.

Even if you dump it into a truck, then dump the truck, you have to think about spreading it out.

A dozer alone might not work if it gets wet in the area that you are working in. You might stick the dozer in a wet spot.

Or, an excavator, dump truck and a tracked bobcat to spread it.


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
IMO If you want to maximize your tillable acres, capping the spring may be something you want to look into. It may even be less expensive than your current plan.


By the way, capping a spring is not what it sounds like. Capping a spring directly captures the flow from the spring, not stop the flow. You would still need to have either a ditch or pipe to get the water to the creek.

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/29/15 06:00 PM.

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Bill- Yeah I have been thinking about capping it but that would all depend if there was a single defined head. If there was it is in essence what I want to do. I just want the water to be captured in an area and have it move off site to the creek. I am concentrating the water in better terms so that I can maximize my acreage. If the spring is multiple heads in the same area I don't know If I can make that work or not. As far as I have researched capping works kind of like a reverse French drain correct.

Fish- Oh Mamma I wish I could own some HE that would be awesome. Maybe in the future but it's not in the budget right now we still have to build a house.

Essup- Whatever material will be moved will not have to go more than a 150 yds.

I know there is a guy down the road that has an excavator with a clamshell bucket for $70hr but I am not sure about a dozer.

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Originally Posted By: Whacker
Bill- Yeah I have been thinking about capping it but that would all depend if there was a single defined head. If there was it is in essence what I want to do. I just want the water to be captured in an area and have it move off site to the creek. I am concentrating the water in better terms so that I can maximize my acreage. If the spring is multiple heads in the same area I don't know If I can make that work or not.


Ahh....I thought you had confirmed it was a single head. In that scenario, I could see building the cap catch basin with sides a few feet above grade. My thinking was that if you can build enough head above the creek level in the catch basin, you could bury the discharge pipe to the creek deep enough to get it out of the way for tilling the ground. Eventually, the only land not tillable would be the spot taken up by the spring house. If it turns out there is more than one head, things get a little tougher.

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/29/15 08:00 PM.

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It sounds like you have a problem that some farmers here have. They tile the low areas and divert the groundwater to a ditch, all underground. Have you consulted with a company that installs field tiles?


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Originally Posted By: esshup
It sounds like you have a problem that some farmers here have. They tile the low areas and divert the groundwater to a ditch, all underground. Have you consulted with a company that installs field tiles?


Like that idea, esp. if you don't really want a pond. They might do all that trenching and laying the tile for a fraction of the cost of a pond. Even if you had to cover the tile with more dirt, from an outside source, so it doesn't get pulled up. Then if you ever want a pond, you know exactly where to go to tap into a water source.


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