Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,899
Posts557,055
Members18,451
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,407
ewest 21,474
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
14 members (rjackson, jpsdad, Donatello, Freg, Layne, jludwig, Shorthose, DenaTroyer, Theo Gallus, Tinylake, catscratch, Brandon Larson, Dave Davidson1, Blestfarmpond), 636 guests, and 177 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
What a great fishery that would make! I mean does the eating get any better than walleye, perch and crappie!!!!

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/27/15 10:29 PM.

[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 733
F
Offline
F
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 733
So d o you have much of a budget or do you want to do most of the work your self??? Like N8ly said you could grow some walleye fast. for a long term great fishery you do need to establish some other feeds.

Should do a check to make sure the perch are all you have. Overpopulated stunted perch are a good sign in that area, as they will out do Greensunfish and bullheads if given the opportunity ( we have a hand full of fisheries with both that almost dry up and then refill with pops of GSF and Bh then GFP stocks a ton of perch and wham! stunted perch), that would give us the guess that there is some depth to your pond. If it never dries up and is shallow and always has water Bullhead first then green sunfish. How far are you from the nearest main drainage? a "2" foot drop in the water is ussually what it takes to keep such from swimming up stream. How is the pond filled?? Is there established pond weeds?? cat tails? bull-rush?? what is the depth?

I would argue N8ly's crappie numbers unless you think you may be able to fish it hard. Dump adult Golden shiners in as soon as possible. And other bait fishes. are there other ponds on the property that you could dedicate to biat fish??

And what weekend are the pictures coming??

what are your thouths on Large mouth or Northern Pike?? mightnot be the ideal sollutions but might be cheaper. If the crappie dont work out would you be willing to add large mouth too. because if the chemestry isnt right the crappie will stunt also.

Last edited by fishm_n; 01/27/15 11:43 PM.

Water is the basis of all life, by design!
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
N
OP Offline
N
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
The pond is filled naturally from springs and snow run off from the nearby hills. It has no outlet. I'm considering northern pike. But in my expierience the pike our too aggressive and will try to eat anything thus I would like to try and avoid that route. We have ponds with high numbers of fathead minnows that we are going to draw from to supplement food. Is there anything I can do to promote reproduction of bait fish or another food source? I have ordered 1500 walleye fingerlings. I would like to stock crappie as previously mentioned. But if there isn't enough food for the YP there won't be enough food to grow BCP

Last edited by Ndfishingfool; 01/28/15 01:11 PM.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
F
Offline
F
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
Make sure those WE are big enough that they aren't a snack for the YP. Look at N8ly's size recommendation. It worries me that you are saying "fingerlings".

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
N
OP Offline
N
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
I should add the walleye are going to be around 7 inches.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,386
B
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,386
A couple of weeks ago Bill Cody and I were conversing about my plans for this spring. I caught what I thought was an excessive # of YP under 8"s and my minnow population was definitely declining last summer. I figured that I needed more top predators. I have 5WE, 8SMB, and 10HSB all fat and healthy. Bill kindly sent me the following info.
He believes each large predator can consume at least 1 2.5-4" YP everyday when water temps are above 50 degrees which in northern In is April 1- Nov 1 which is 210 days. He further explained that when the small YP became depleted the top predators would then start picking off my minnows. Thank you Mr Cody!!
23 predators X 210= 4830 YP. This is in a very monitored 1/4 acre pond. NFF has a pond that is 320 times as big as mine.
This should be one of the more interesting threads in quite awhile. Please keep us updated on progress.


Do nature a favor, spay/neuter your pets and any weird friends or relatives.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
NDfishingfool, I'd print off Nates stocking recommendations and tape it to the fridge to refer to at a later date. You can always add NP at a later date if the WE aren't doing what you want. It's MUCH easier to take baby steps than to have to backtrack, especially with a BOW your size.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 939
M
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Hall of Fame
Lunker
M
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 939
My crazy Minnesota math:

If you have an 80 acre BOW with stunted YP then:

- The BOW most likely will be at carrying capacity
- Assuming a conservative carrying capacity of 250lbs of fish / 1 acre.
- The BOW would then contain 20,000lbs of YP
- Assuming 10 YP/lb
- The BOW would then contain approximately 200,000 YP
- Assume retail for a 3-4" YP at $.80
- Assume wholesale at 1/3 of $.80 or $.2 / YP
-The pond would then have $40,000 worth of wholesale YP

My point...None really...Just something else to think about...Keep in mind I'm usually off my rocker laugh

Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
MnfiSh
I'll have what your having please!


Pat

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
N
OP Offline
N
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
Thanks everybody for all the input. I will be adding pictures of the body of water as well as pictures of the perch this Saturday.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
BE sure as 8nly suggests to do a depth study favoring a "large area 16 or more ft. Too shallow of water, too much snow cover, and too many organic inputs or plant growth can lead to low DO that YP will tolerate, but not walleye. If the lake is too shallow and walleye do not survive then resort to LMB or NP or musky. NP will tolerate lower DO than WE or LMB. With reproducing NP they could eliminate the YP and result in a lake full of "hammer handles". I prefer non reproducing musky. WE will likely not create small WE in your 80 ac lake unless it has a windswept rocky shoreline.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/29/15 12:09 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 733
F
Offline
F
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 733
How many other ponds are on the property?? Could you use one as a brood pond for stocker walleye with 100 of your order?


Water is the basis of all life, by design!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
Just thinking outloud; Stocking 1500 5"-7" walleye (18/ac) each eating about 200 YP a year (a lot less than 1 small fish per day) equals 300,000 small perch or minnows (no minnows present that we know of). We are not sure of the survival rate for the stocked walleye. From Mnfish's calc above: "The BOW would then contain approximately 200,000 YP", although these theoretical stunted YP of mostly 3"-7" would be mostly too large for the stocker WE to eat. The stocker WE will have to live on 1"-2" or maybe 3" & smaller YP (young of year) until the walleye are large enough to eat the predominant stunted 4"-7" YP.

I have a book that discussed a study about raising YP as the a single fish specie in four IL ponds to study the carrying capacity - standing crop (Dynamics of One Species Populations of Fishes). They found the standing crops ranged from 51.3 to 192 pounds per ac (mostly 94-150). Differences were attributed differences in fertilities, pond treatments, pond size, age of populations, and environmental factors (forage items & weed density). Cropping the perch resulted in increased production. Differences in population composition (sizes) occurred. Year class strengths were variable.


Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/29/15 04:52 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
N
OP Offline
N
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
There are countless other ponds. Over every hill it seems. I had this talk with my brother. And I cannot think of a way to get them out. It might sound dumb, but is it possible to raise fish in a thousand gallon stock tank? I have several of those of so.

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
F
Offline
F
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
Absolutely. A lot of guys grow out there own fish. Mainly because the fish sellers don't sell them big enough for their needs.

Lots of post on here about aquaculture. Look into some of Cecil Baird's posts.

Secondly, others have built cages that reamin in their ponds to grow fish out. Don't have to worry about finding them that way!!!!

And then there are seines....... and fyke nets,...... it's a bit overwhelming actually.

Last edited by fish n chips; 01/29/15 05:07 PM.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
Take one of those ponds, drain it with a pump. Make the bottom shaped like a paint roller tray.

A pond is really easy to seine that way.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 939
M
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Hall of Fame
Lunker
M
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 939
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Just thinking outloud; Stocking 1500 5"-7" walleye (18/ac) each eating about 200 YP a year (a lot less than 1 small fish per day) equals 300,000 small perch or minnows (no minnows present that we know of). We are not sure of the survival rate for the stocked walleye. From Mnfish's calc above: "The BOW would then contain approximately 200,000 YP", although these theoretical stunted YP of mostly 3"-7" would be mostly too large for the stocker WE to eat. The stocker WE will have to live on 1"-2" or maybe 3" & smaller YP (young of year) until the walleye are large enough to eat the predominant stunted 4"-7" YP.

I have a book that discussed a study about raising YP as the a single fish specie in four IL ponds to study the carrying capacity - standing crop (Dynamics of One Species Populations of Fishes). They found the standing crops ranged from 51.3 to 192 pounds per ac (mostly 94-150). Differences were attributed differences in fertilities, pond treatments, pond size, age of populations, and environmental factors (forage items & weed density). Cropping the perch resulted in increased production. Differences in population composition (sizes) occurred. Year class strengths were variable.



This is kind of where I was going with my post Bill.

Biologically -There are a lot of it all depends here. I think it would be a mistake to start stocking ANYTHING just yet.

Financially- There may be a way to trade some of your perch for other game fish. So your out of pocket would be minimized. YP and a modified fyke net go together like peanut butter and jelly!!! IME- Trapping them is very doable.

I just reread my earlier post and it does read like an engineer on crack. Got a good laugh at the comment Pat! laugh

Last edited by mnfish; 01/29/15 06:04 PM.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,505
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,505
Bill, apprx how many offspring will a mature 6" yp have in the spring in a lake filled with sticks and debris for spawning on? I have a hunch that a 6" walleye would be able to outcompete a 6" perch for available yoy... Also the young walleye will feast on all kinds of other insects and critters that would be loaded in that lake as well.

I wouldn't overthink this by raising fish in tanks, etc. I'd check the depths and stock the fish in the lake and get ready for some awesome walleye fishing. Being the only predator in the lake id have no problem with stocking up to 25 per acre initially and then every 2-3 years supplementing with additional walleye... The supplemental stockings won't have quite as good of survival rates since there will be bigger predators in the lake by then.

I've stocked walleye only lakes at rates of 50-100 walleye per acre with great success as well, but haven't had quite the same scenario with a perch only forage base... Shiners, green sunfish and gizzard shad mainly... In theory though id love to get my hands on an 80 acre lake chuck full of zillions of stunted perch!!!


Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
Quote:
Bill, apprx how many offspring will a mature 6" yp have in the spring in a lake filled with sticks and debris for spawning on?


Let's make some guesses for this answer. If our 80 ac lake has stunted 200,000 YP that is 2500 YP/acre. That IMO is a reasonable estimate for a one specie stunted population. In my 0.7 ac pond in 2013 I removed 1200 GSF and in 2014 I removed 3231 GSF (all 1"-6").

A stunted 6" female YP could have 18000 eggs whereas a regular 6" female may have 20000 eggs. Lets assume 70% of the 18000eggs of our stunted female actually hatch = 12600 fry/female (18000x0.70). 200,000 stunted YP with half or 100,000 as females = 1,260,000,000 (1.26trillion) total yolk fry produced/hatched or 15.75million fry/acre. Fry disappear quickly depending on predation, but most often most loss is due to lack of a proper food source for the swim up fry. In a clear water lake with lower planktonic rotifer populations (1st fry foods), easily 80% to 90% of the hatchling fry can starve without enough tiny planktonic food. This leaves 252 to 126 million surviving fry in 80 ac.

Let's assume each of the hungry stunted YP eats an average of 20 fry per day which is 4million total fry loss per day so after 40 days our 252 million surviving fry has now shrunk to 92 million 'fry' and the 126 million fry only lasted 31.5days (now a food shortage, thus stunting).

Probably only around 80%-88% of the fry starve to death leaving about hundred thousand surviving small 1"-2" YP fingerlings to replace natural mortality that occurs annually in the 80 ac lake and most all lakes, even ponds. Natural fish mortality is often estimated to be around 25%-35% so around 50,000 to 70,000 of our 200,000 mature stunted YP die of various causes of natural mortality each year and are replaced by the annual recruitment.

It is thought that this natural mortality of 25%-30% of the mature fish will die each year in your pond weather you harvest them or not. When there is no harvest then crowding and stunting occurs resulting in overall more smaller fish dying instead of fewer larger fish dying. The 25%-30% estimate is possibly more of a weight calculation than a number amount.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/30/15 04:22 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Bill,

Are the spawn of a stunted fish capable of going on, in the right environment, and reaching full growth potential as if the parents were not stunted?


[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 476
Yes - IMO hatchlings from stunted adults will usually grow to a normal size if the fry have adequate food i.e. excess food every day as long as they live. A normal size adult and a trophy size adult are often separated by a premium or special combination of parential genetics plus lots of constant availability of daily food.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/30/15 04:31 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
I've wondered that same question Bill.

A person would think the genetic code would still be there, although with perhaps some natural selection for hardiness in crowded conditions.


John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Thanks,

I guess to get the complete picture, the other question I have wondered about is can you unstunt a fish by moving him to a suitable environment and forage?


[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Thanks,

I guess to get the complete picture, the other question I have wondered about is can you unstunt a fish by moving him to a suitable environment and forage?


Bill D., you should be able to get them to 100% WR or maybe over that but the fish will never reach the size that it could have reached if it had ample food from day 1.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by Freg - 03/28/24 07:28 AM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by Donatello - 03/28/24 07:20 AM
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by jludwig - 03/28/24 07:12 AM
Reducing fish biomass
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:17 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:05 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:02 PM
Questions and Feedback on SMB
by Donatello - 03/27/24 03:10 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by Bill Cody - 03/27/24 10:18 AM
2024 North Texas Optimal BG food Group Buy
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/27/24 08:15 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by esshup - 03/26/24 10:00 PM
Freeze Danger? - Electric Diaphragm Pump
by esshup - 03/26/24 09:47 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5