Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Too many 10" LMB, among other problems.

Hello everyone,

I am completely new to the entire process of managing a pond but have been trying to implement some changes to a pond that my family owns. I guess I will begin with the structure of the pond and then go into the problem we are having in hopes that you all can help. I am located in northern Illinois and the pond is an old rock quarry that measures 11.5 surface acres and is 40ft deep at its deepest point. There are drop offs and shelves at various depths, its not just a deep bowl. As you can imagine the bottom surface is mainly sand and rock. There is very little if any submerged vegetation and almost all of the structure consists of old fallen trees along the shore line which have broken down extensively. The pond is fed by natural springs and also their is a nearby river that seeps through the ground as the pond level fluctuates with the river level. The water is VERY clear all year long.

Now to the problems at hand. As I stated before, this pond has been in the family for decades and I learned how to fish at this pond. There used to be a huge population of large BG, plenty of 2lb LMB and many 4lb LMB and even a 7lb LMB was caught, crappie were present, not in huge numbers but they were 12-15 inchers. There are a couple types of catfish, one is channel for sure, other is greyish/blue looking. And then there is the large population of common carp. Now adays, it seems like there are thousands of 10 inch skinny LMB and very few fish at or over 2 lbs, some big BG but never see any little ones except right after the spawn on their beds. The crappie have disappeared entirely. Catfish population seems to be doing fine, and there are still a lot of carp, even after years of removal. I have never seen any forage species, only LMB fry and BG fry that are obviously immediately eaten.

What is the plan of action here, I would like to reestablish a healthy LMB fishery and also bring back the number of BG in the pond. I don't really care about the cats, and the carp can go for sure. I think adding lots of structure, especially off shore would help. Would it even be possible to establish a forage species with that many hungry mouths?? Also, is it possible or economical to grow vegetation in a sand bottom?

A few years ago I contacted a hatchery here in Illinois for advice and they said that removing LMB and cats would rebound the BG population and possibly adding a predator such as tiger musky would help keep the LMB population in check. I looked into stocking the TM and think they would explode in size with so much food to eat!! I would love any and all advice and feel I have a unique opportunity and I could turn this into a fishermen's paradise in a few years! I just want to do it correctly.

Thanks,
Brandon

Welcome to the forum!

That sounds like a typical LMB stunted pond. With the water depth, and I'm guessing steep sides it might not be a good lake to electro shock. But, in any case you need to remove a LOT of LMB from the lake - figure on 15-20 pounds per acre this year(of all sizes). The carp? Bowfishing at night or maybe seining or a gill net. They will chew up a lot of biomass that could be put to use by LMB or BG.

The catfish, if over 3# will compete directly with the LMB for food.

I figured removing the bass would be a good place to start, thank you for the figure of how many to take. You are correct, the sides are very steep, should I be adding structure in the deeper water for during the winter or just in the middle of the pond at various depths? I figure adding some tight structure will give the BG some better hiding spots and hopefully help the population.

We have bowfished at night and had a blast with that. What do the carp actually do in the pond, do they just eat any vegetation that would have the possibility of growing? Do they eat any eggs off of the beds? If so would removing them automatically increase submerged weeds and fish hatch or would we have to somehow plant vegetation?

What are your thoughts on adding some tiger musky into the mix? The hatchery gave me the number of 1-2 per surface acre. They wont reproduce and should eat up some of the bass and not as many BG due to the body shape correct? Any thoughts on the possibility of establishing a forage species population?

Cover in the pond should be roughly 20% of the surface area. Adding it to varying depths will help the fish all year long.

There is a good thread in the archives for cover in a pond.

Carp don't eat submerged plants per se, but they do root around in the bottom, and may dislodge some. They will go thru a BG nesting colony and vaccum up eggs.

Muskies are about the only thing that will get big enough to eat carp that are a year to two years old, but the bad thing is you can't tell them to only eat the carp. They will eat LMB and BG too. Plus with the LMB in there, unless you can get some that are pretty large, the LMB could eat them as soon as they are stocked.

With the creek going into the lake, you will have a hard time staying ahead of the carp.

b. dreier,

What part of Northern Illinois you live near? We are near Belvidere.

Bill D.

Essup, if I were to stock 12+ inch tigers would they be large enough to not get eaten right away?? Also, the river is adjacent to the lake but not directly connected to it, just seepage through the ground and takes about 2 days to level out with the river. I am gathering that I need to concentrate on removal of the carp to help the BG spawn, and remove large numbers of LMB to help with predator/prey ratios. The main use of the tigers would be to help control the LMB population? Not so much the carp? I do feel like it's going to be difficult to get ahead of the reproducing carp population...

Bill D, I currently live near you in Poplar Grove but the pond is located near Rockton IL. Do you have any advice on possibility of establishing forage species or concentrate on removing hungry mouths? Or both? I plan on adding as much cover as possible on the ice this year, and maybe ice fish with some buddies to take out some LMBs and have a fish fry.

Thanks for all the advice guys, I really appreciate it!!

With the Tigers being so skinny, a 16" LMB would eat them no problem, and even smaller LMB would probably grab them just because they don't have a lot of food in there.

If you really want to stock Tigers, you should be able to find them 18" long in the fall.

If the Tigers are hungry, they will eat whatever swims past them first.

As long as the river doesn't actually flow into or have an overflow from the pond that the fish could jump or swim up, you shouldn't get more carp into the lake. Yes, it will take some work to get their numbers down.

Ok thanks, I will try and contact a hatchery here in northern IL and see what size fish I can get In the fall. Id hate to put in a $30 fish just to have them become bass food! Another question, will bass feed on their own young? I'm trying to understand what is actually in the lake to sustain so many LMB, there is non other species besides BG and I doubt enough to support the bass.

Sounds like an amazing body of water. I would definitely begin a close management program but start by taking measurements. All BG and LMB caught should be weighed and measured. You can then run relative weights on them. As has already been said, your lake has classic signs of being bass over populated. In northern ponds and lakes this is very common.

Immediately begin removing every single LMB of every size you catch. You honestly can't remove too many in my opinion...

I am OK with the stocking of tiger musky. Your lake is a great candidate for them compared to most. As has been said, they'll eat what they want, but what they eat should do more to help than to harm in your situation. To help spread out the cost of stocking the TM, I would recommend you stock 6-8 per year over the next 3 years. I would then stock 3-4 biannually there after.

This stocking strategy should help thin out your 10" LMB problem and also thin the carp population as well as create a unique trophy TM fishery. There are a few sources of TM in the upper Midwest, finding ones in the 15" range would be ideal. They should be available this upcoming fall. Begin sourcing them now...

The big key here is to remove large numbers of LMB though. That will mean lots of effort being put into catching them. You'll likely see relative weight values in the 70's or 80's starting out. Your goal should be to get them into the 100 range. This will likely take 5+ years of dedicated LMB removal by angling and some assistance from TM predation.

As you see relative weight values increase and push the 90's, I would then consider the stocking of additional forage. A big question for me is, does your Lake connect to any other body of water? You mentioned underground springs, but what about small creek, stream, etc? Only during high water events or always? This does factor into recommendations I would give. If it doesn't connect to any other body of water, I'd consider stocking new BG and after LMB numbers are controlled even some new LMB. Decades of isolation could mean an infusion of new genetics would likely be a good thing.

I would also target the catfish hard and remove all caught without exception. As has been stated, they do compete directory with the bass for the limited resources available.

Your pond being an old quarry does create a unique challenge in limited shallow water refuge areas for your forage of all species. Adding structure will certainly be a good thing. If aquatic vegetation hasn't taken hold in your lake yet, it likely never will.

Are you willing to begin even a modest feeding program? If do, further advice can be given if that is an option.

Best of luck!

Keystone Hatchery is not far from us in Richmond, IL and they have Tigers. Good folks over there. Straight shot East on 173.

Talk to Mike there at Keystone. He should be able to furnish you 16"-18" Tigers in the Fall, but try and pre-order them to be sure you get them.

Bass will most definitely feed on other bass.

CJBS2003, thank you for all of the input. I will begin taking out as many LMB as possible, hopefully even start this winter. The catfish have proven very easy to catch when Ive tried for them and will remove them as well.

There is no inlet or outlet of water even during the highest of times, strictly runoff, spring fed, and seepage through the ground from the river very nearby. I suppose that would be good if I wanted to add BG and new LMB to keep them in the body of water and not lose them to streams etc. Does that also fair well if I tried to establish a forage species in high enough numbers to allow them to reproduce and continually populate the pond? What forage species would do best in this situation when/if we added them to the pond, and how many to add?? Along the sides in a few areas the bank is gradually sloped and with enough cover should hopefully allow forage to survive??

I did contact Keystone and they said they should be able to have some TM available in the fall, it would probably by a fun day trip to head over there and check out the operation since they are pretty close to home.

Thanks guys.

If there is no surface water entering the pond, do you have any idea how the common carp got in there??

You'll want one of the experts to weigh in, but you'll have to stock BG large enough to escape predation, if anything. Focus on LMB removal first. Check my thread (link below). I also started with stunted PMB and I definitely turned it around. Not quite where I want to be yet, but getting there is fun anyway.

Since the pond is near Rockton, is it safe to assume the nearby river is the Rock? Possible a high water event on the Rock can reach your pond?

A radical idea. What about stocking a few FHC with the TM? I mean if you're looking for mouth gap to take out carp, it don't get no bigger than FHC.

EDIT: Found this old thread on FHC:

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=123793&fpart=1

Of particular interest:

North American Journal of Fisheries Management
Article: pp. 198–202

Gape:Body Size Relationship of Flathead Catfish
Joe E. Slaughter IVa,,1 and Brad Jacobsonb
a) Georgia Department of Natural Resources, Wildlife Resources Division, 2065 U.S. Highway 278 SE, Social Circle, Georgia 30025, USA
b) Arizona Game and Fish Department, Region IV, 9140 East 28th Street, Yuma, Arizona 85365, USA

Abstract.

The flathead catfish Pylodictis olivaris is a highly piscivorous ictalurid native to central North America whose range has been extended throughout much of the United States. With this range expansion, many populations of native fishes have experienced declines in the number of individuals due to direct predation by flathead catfish. Previous evidence suggests that flathead catfish are opportunistic feeders and may be the least gape limited of North American freshwater piscivores. To better understand the size of prey vulnerable to flathead catfish, we measured gape dimensions for individuals of various sizes to determine the maximum size prey a flathead catfish can kill based on its gape limitations. Our results show the relationship of total length to horizontal and vertical gape and the relationship of flathead catfish total length to the total lengths of ingestible-sized prey of different body shapes. Furthermore, comparisons of the body depth of three common fish species to the gape dimensions showed that no size of largemouth bass Micropterus salmoides, bluegill Lepomis macrochirus, or gizzard shad Dorosoma cepedianum would preclude predation by flathead catfish. Our results support the assumption that the flathead catfish is one of the least gape-limited piscivores.

Received: January 31, 2006; Accepted: May 4, 2007; Published Online: February 11, 2008

DOI: 10.1577/M06-033.1
North American Journal of Fisheries Management 2008;28:198–202


So they are THE TOP of the food chain

Who sells Flathead catfish? Don't FHC live where carp forage for food, on or near the bottom? Are carp active at night when FHC are usually feeding? Would a motionless carp at night be easy prey for FHC?

Learn how to bait and fish specifically for carp. The methods are special. Have annual carp fishing derbies/parties with prizes for most carp caught for co-workers, friends and relatives.

Bucket stockings lead to many carp introductions.

As far as forage fish options, once you get the LMB and catfish numbers greatly reduced I'd look at stocking the largest BG you can source. I would also look at stocking 5+ pounds per acre, the largest GSH you can source. I'd look at stocking the GSH in mid spring just before they're do to spawn. I see GSH establishing better in larger bodies of water like yours, even with an abundant LMB population.

Thanks for the recommendations guys!

Would any of you care to speculate on the growth potential of tiger musky in a BOW like this? Im not specifically trying to grow trophy fish but I am wondering what expected growth would be? Also, how much growth per year before the musky would be large enough to eat a 10" LMB, starting at 12-16" before stocking"

For the difference in price to stock a forage species, is GSH the better choice because they are larger compared to FHM and could survive a little better and hopefully reproduce?

I read a forum post about a lake in the Midwest that had large LMB population and FHC were stocked and in a few years they were catching 50# FHC! Seems like they would eat pretty much everything, including adult BG that we are trying to keep??

Correct about the FHC eating everything.....

If given enough food, I've heard of Tigers growing 18"-20" the first year, 30" the 2nd year.

So, I'd think it would be year 3 or later when they'd eat a 10"-12" LMB. You have to worry about the opposite if you are stocking 12" fish. They are skinny and thin when young, so I believe that the "1/3 the body lenght" would not apply to it regarding LMB forage. I'd bet a hungry 16" LMB would try to eat one.

Hey guys, do any of you have any recommendations on who would be able to electroshock a pond? Ive been trying to think of a way to eliminate the carp quickly and effectively that wouldn't involve stocking FHC that could possibly grow to sizes that would eat anything or even worse reproduce.

I feel if I can remove the carp to very low percentage of their current amount, I can then begin the process of removing a lot of the LMB by either angling or adding tiger musky without the possibility of seeing a huge spike in carp after their spawn without so many little mouths the eat of the carp YOY.

Have a question for the experts concerning the carp.

If enough LMB were removed so some of the LMB would get bigger, back up to the 2-5# range, would they not take care of the carp reproduction? The YOY carp?

In other words, if the LMB were managed correctly, wouldn't only the large carp eventually be left to be taken out by angling? Do any trophy LMB BOW's ever stock carp for the LMB to eat?

Is electro fishing effective in a relatively deep body of water with steep shoreline?

It depends but it has limits in deep water.

Hey B. Dreier, if you end up getting it done, please give me a shout. I would love to watch or help if you need any.

Bill D.