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Then depending how the winter/early spring goes worse case would be adding another layer of compacted clay?

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There again you should be talking to a real educated soil scientist with experience with your soils not a fish squeezer.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/22/15 11:41 AM.

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Thanks Bill, funny story.......I actually have talked to a county soil scientist on a couple of occasions. He's extremely knowlegable about the local soils, permability and suitability for different crops/rotation etc. Beyond below 60" he really doesn't have a lot of input on clays for pond building etc. He did tell me to check out a website called Pond Boss for techniques to determine pond soil suitability.......he is what brought me to this site

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Where do we find someone expert with Michigan gray clay??? Evidently there are soil scientists and there are soil scientists. Evidently the best practical place is a contractor who has built ponds with gray clay soil. Evidently your contractor is not real familiar with gray clay or he would have said "Hey I know just what to do with this stuff". This will be a learning curve for you.


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rcgoblue, contact your local NRCS agent ate the USDA office that services your county. They are a taxpayer supported service intended to give you advice and options on what will be best with your soils, watershed and topography available. Some agents can even do core samples to discover the deeper soils, map out a dam location and even loosely supervise the construction. They are NOT allowed to suggest dirt movers or pond builders, but asked correctly who they would hire if it were their pond, most will answer honestly.



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Thanks.....all great advise. In retrospect I would have started with the NRCS. Instead I interviewed three pond contractors that do nothing but dig ponds. And as much as I could tell from references and looking at their work they all know what they're doing.

I met all three on site, all told me I would most likely have to line the pond unless we were lucky enough to hit clay. Core samples down to 12' did not find clay.

The builder I picked was not the cheapest but had the most experience building ponds. He also has the least experience with clay as most of his work is done in Northern Michigan.

When we hit the Gray Clay he told me exactly what we needed to do. He is very confident the pond will seal but based on what I have read on this forum I now have my concerns.

While I appreciate and respect your advise I'm not sure there is more to do at this point other then let it rain and see if it holds. Perhaps I should have stayed with plan A using a liner.

However, if water is in fact seaping in from the bottom I will get the contractor back on site ASAP. BTW all three contractors told me they had no issues digging in the winter.

Last edited by rcgoblue; 01/22/15 04:29 PM.
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Where do we find someone expert with Michigan gray clay??? Evidently there are soil scientists and there are soil scientists. Evidently the best practical place is a contractor who has built ponds with gray clay soil. Evidently your contractor is not real familiar with gray clay or he would have said "Hey I know just what to do with this stuff". This will be a learning curve for you.


Evidently

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Digging and building a pond in winter is probably pretty similar to warm weather work. Winter soil should compact properly as long as it is not frozen. The problem as I see it is after the contractor leaves the project. Our local good contractor and soils guy always says to fill it ASAP to reduce drying, cracking, freezing, thawing of the clay liner. The longer the side walls are exposed to the elements the more likely it will leak. Many here soon after the dirt work is completed, pump the pond full from a creek or ditch, sometimes 1/2 mi away. Irrigation pumps 4"-6" work good for filling a pond. There are irrigation pumps that are stand alone or operate on the PTO shaft of a tractor.

I am not trying to be negative and I hope your pond holds water well. But if it does leak and does not stay full you have several possible reasons why.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/22/15 06:09 PM.

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I agree with Bill.

Groundwater or a spring, it doesn't make a difference. Neither come with a one-way valve to only let water go one way. If a pond isn't sealed, both will add water to the pond because there is less pressure against the water in the pond area. Once the water in the pond (at the point of where it's leaking in) exceeds the pressure of the water in the ground, it will start to flow out of the pond. Roughly 1/2 psi for every foot depth of water.

re: clay. If you can take the clay and roll it between your palms and make a rope or a pencil out of it, then it's good for sealing the pond. If you can't, try adding or removing moisture. Even good clay can be too wet or too dry to compact properly.

Here's some reading for you if you haven't found it already:
http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs144p2_030362.pdf


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I sure hope it works, and have a similar situation in Bridgeton with the soils and clay, but there is no way on God's Green Earth I would want to pay for the track hoe being in your hole in the ground.

Like you said, someone pointed you here to PB, and there is good reason for that.

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Thanks again. I contacted the local NRCS for some advise. Better late then never. I did both the bucket and pencil test on the clay before we compacted it and I'm feeling good about the ability of the clay to seal the pond if properly installed/compacted.

A couple of thoughts about your comments. Would adding a layer of sand over the clay help insulate from freeze/thaw? I have a well, I could start to fill the pond but realistically it would take several weeks.

I get the part about making sure the bottom is tight. I still have the excavator on site if we need too add more layers of clay.

I will be back on site this weekend to see what it looks like and will post some additional pics.

Thanks again. I wish I had found this forum during the planning stages.

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I would use the well even if it takes a month to fill the pond. Late winter and spring rains with your well water should have the pond full by early April. The sooner you get it full after they are finished the better. then you can asses the water holding ability. There are several good threads here to determine amount of leakage vs evaporation. You should be able to monitor water level up and down on your dock posts.


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I would use the well even if it takes a month to fill the pond. Late winter and spring rains with your well water should have the pond full by early April. The sooner you get it full after they are finished the better. then you can asses the water holding ability. There are several good threads here to determine amount of leakage vs evaporation. You should be able to monitor water level up and down on your dock posts.



Thanks for the advise Bill.

I have read in several places where posters have dug separate wells to keep the pond level full. Other than be in close proximity to the water source what would be the advantage as I assume the water source (aquafier) would be one and the same.

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Originally Posted By: rcgoblue
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I would use the well even if it takes a month to fill the pond. Late winter and spring rains with your well water should have the pond full by early April. The sooner you get it full after they are finished the better. then you can asses the water holding ability. There are several good threads here to determine amount of leakage vs evaporation. You should be able to monitor water level up and down on your dock posts.



Thanks for the advise Bill.

I have read in several places where posters have dug separate wells to keep the pond level full. Other than be in close proximity to the water source what would be the advantage as I assume the water source (aquafier) would be one and the same.


I use one well but I had it drilled with the extra capacity required to support both the pond and the house. I can think of two reasons to drill a separate well for the pond. The first is the existing well does not have the required capacity and the second is the existing well is too far away from the pond.

Bill D.

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/24/15 08:52 AM.

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Some wells access different water sources depending on depth and location of the well.


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Wellll..... the pond is "finished". Its leaking water through the very bottom and sides at about 12' feet deep. You can see the dark covered (no snow) spots in the picture where its running in. Its just pushing right through the clay. Very clear water, a stream almost.

The builder thinks its a spring, says he packed it at 3' in the spot on the pictures. Not sure what to do at this point other than wait and see.

The strange thing is its only coming in from one side. If it were ground table water wouldnt it seap from all sides?

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Depending on the height source of the spring, quite a lot of pressure could be present resulting an inability to plug it effectively. However, if there is quite a lot of pressure to the spring, it could mean a full pool unless leakage someplace else outpaces the gains from the spring.

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It looks to be at or slightly below the water table......it will be interesting if it keeps flowing in after it hits what looks like equilibrium. It's coming in mostly from the side in about a 10x10 area.

We will continue to monitor it over the next few days that are going to be below frezing temps for the most part.

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If it acts as a drain, keep the option open with the pond builder to drain the pond, and compact the clay over it later in 2015 when it's drier and warmer out. Say July/August/Sept.


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I like that idea ESSUP, may have to delay adding fish this season.

One thing I had forgotten about before I built my pond on the lowest point of an 8 acre plot. The highest point always had a couple of spots where is was usually wet. I'm wondering if the watertable/springs are closer to the surface at the high spots and would flow down to the pond location about 250' away and 12' lower elevation.

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There is always an opportunity to put in "farm tile" and drain the wet spots into the pond. You get to dry the spots, and gain water for your pond at the same time.

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I actually thought about doing exactly that squid. I just got off the phone with the local NCRS and he told me about the same thing. The incoming water could be a confined aquifer, or it could be just ground water.

He suggested I let it fill as much as possible through the bottom with the spring water, maximize the watershed potential (drainage tile) sloped to the pond and top off with well water during the summer months as needed.

The only thing he could tell me about the gray clay is the reason for the color was because it was anaerobic, never exposed to oxygen, difficult to pack but dense at the same time.

Thanks for your help......building ponds is fun smile

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thought I would share this midwinter picture of the pond.

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another

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You seem to have about as much of the white stuff as we do! Apart from two posts at the end of my dock, there is no indication we have a pond any more. Can't even walk the dog as the snow is beyond her back!

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