Pond Boss Forums INTRO New Forum Member Introduction new from Southern Michigan

I bought some property this fall and I'm currently in the process of having a 1/2 acre pond dug. Very first pond, very excited but at the same time nervous. It is to be stocked at some point, still deciding on species, it will have a beach/swimming area and a windmill for areation.

It was to be about 15' deep, mostly sandy loam, and gravely loam until we hit some gray clay at 15'. It will be filled with run off from about a 4 acre watershed.

Looking forward to sharing and learning.

Welcome, ask lots of ?s and keep us up to date on progress.
Do ya live in Ohio and have property in Mich?

Welcome to PBF!!

Exactly right Bob. In NW Ohio most ponds are watershed ponds sealed with redish clay. My pond in Michigan is Gray Clay...which I feel is fortunated becuse we hit no water down to 15' and the only other option was a liner.

Welcome to our great pond forum. Your two main choices for pond fish are bluegill-LMbass and yellow perch-without LMbass although the predator can be walleye (WE) or smallmouth(SMB). It is difficult management to combine all those species into one pond and get all to do really well; survive but not thrive. I don't think the MDNR allows hybrid striped bass(HSB)in MI. YP-HSB are a very good combination since the HSB do not reproduce and you have very good control of the number of predator - a big plus. WE would also provide that same benefit, but not SMB, since they commonly spawn in most ponds with a sandy gravel beach area.

If you stock YP and do it correctly you can have 10" YP after the 1st or 2nd yr depending on if you stock fingerlings (2"-4") or 4"-6"ers. A good method is to use some of both sizes. Good genetic stock YP at 5"-6" and pellet fed will get to 9"-10 in one growing season (spring-summer-fall).

A third option is to stock hybrid BG and LMB to produce really big panfish. Read through the posts in this link from our Common Q&A Achives.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256325#Post256325

Our forum member Sprkplug has two articles in 2014 Pond Boss magazine. Pictures of his HBG are in the link above. In the articles below he tells how to do it.
May-June HYBRID BLUEGILLS….. BENEFIT OR BOONDOGGLE? Tony Livingston provides his real story about hybrid bluegill and their proper management based on his experience of what works. Here is thoughtful advice, some facts and fiction and a formula for success

Jul-Aug ART OF THE SCIENCE OF GROWING HUGE HYBRID SUNFISH. Tony Livingston explains the concepts, ideas, and requirements to grow trophy sized hybrid bluegills

rcgoblue,

I am trying to picture your project. How deep will the pond end up being? Are you in an area with high yearly rainfall? Is your 4 acres of watershed pretty much open ground or is it wooded? Is watershed the only source of water?

Bill D.

rcgoblue,
Welcome to Pond Boss...lots of good helpful folks here to guide you along on your journey toward pond-om...shoot us some pics of your progress.
Charlie

Bill D.

Trying to get some photos loaded.

Because we hit clay at 15 feet the pond will be deeper than anticipated.....20'. We get 32" of rainfall per year. The watershed is sloped nicely to the pond area and it is all open ground....reclaimed farm land. It is the only watersource however I could also suppliment with a well that is on the property.

For a well sealed pond, 32" of annual precipitation will keep it full or reasonably full. Well sealed dug ponds in NW OH will loose 12" -16" maximum of water during our drought summers. Loss of more water than 16"-20" indicates significant leakage. If your contractor spreads and compacts the clay properly that he finds below 15ft, your pond should stay pretty full all year. Plan to have a good over flow pipe that is well compacted into the pond wall for release of excess water from the pretty large water shed. A grassed or rock lined spillway may also be a good idea for heavy rain events. I like to have an elbow on the overflow pipe to capture extra water during the spring rains. A 4"-6" dia overflow pipe should be adequate for 1/2 ac.
See the important discussion and great information about soil compaction in this link. After reading it you may have a different opinion of your pond builder.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=395066#Post395066


The 20ft or more depth will put excessive strain on the windmill diaphragm & bearings due to the greater pressure needed to get air out of the diffuser at deep depths (16+ft). Aeration windmills work best long term in shallow ponds (6ft-10ft) where useful circulating bubbles appear during slower wind speeds 5-10mph. Buying a cheaply or even an average made windmill will likely result in more maintenance of bearings, diaphragms, and mechanics if the windmill has to constantly produce air at high pressure. Do your due diligence well in selecting the proper windmill. Be aware of slick sales pitches and warranties. Talk is cheap and usually empty after they have your money. I sold windmills for 8 years. Extra expense and homework up front will likely pay back dividends years later.

Thanks Bill..............based on the information you have provided and reading other articles on this forum I insisted my contractor compact the clay. He builds many ponds in Michigan mostly of the groundwater variety and admits he doesn't have a ton of experience with clay lined ponds. He feels it should still be ok but as your article states compacting will provide additional insurance. Based on our conversation he has been able to locate a sheepsfoot roller.

A couple of questions:
1) should the gray clay be mixed/ If so how?
2) should sand/spoils be layered over the clay once it is compacted?
3) he was planning on 12" of clay layer, is that adequate?
4) any issues completing this task in the dead of a Michigan winter at below freezing temperatures?
5) pros and cons of digging to 20-25' versus the inital plan of 15'?
6) special considerations for gray clay? The locals have told me its like working with toothpaste

Thanks for your help.....

I am not a soil scientist. Contact your local Soil & Water conservation office for the nearest soil scientist in your area. Ask him your soil questions. A pond builder with little experience with dug compacted ponds makes me VERY nervous. A leaky pond will be your worst chronic headache and nightmare. It can cost more to fix a leaky pond than it did it build it. The textbooks suggest a 24" thick clay liner. The best dug ponds in NW OH have bull dozer blade wide and compacted side walls above the clay layer using compacted lifts of 6"-8" thick.

Managing Michigan Ponds for Sport Fishing suggests 15ft as minimum depth and 18'-20' is better and 25ft is still better to minimize winter kill.
http://archive.lib.msu.edu/DMC/Ag.%20Ext.%202007-Chelsie/PDF/e1554-1994-print3.pdf
The main concern with those deeper depths is having the proper compressor to adequately mix the pond. Aeration is not absolutely necessary in a deep pond if you don't mind an occasional fish kill when the pond gets old and eutrophic. It is worth your expense to try and get power to within 500-800ft of the pond; closer the better. Then you won't have to spend over $1.4+K for proper windmill aeration. Good electric aeration can he had for $300-500 if you know what you are doing using wise economy shortcuts.

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Images did not appear. Maybe just provide a link to where they are stored?.

Welcome RCGoBlue! My pond is in SW Michigan. Listen to the experts here, they have helped me a ton.

I'd love to dive in to the uncertainly about HSB stocking in Michigan. There are posts on the forum where HSB were put in Michigan ponds by a reputable fish hauling (Fish farm, what is the correct term) outfit. I don't think they would risk their license by brining in illegal fish, nor want to pay the high fines!!

But there is grey area in the guidelines. Read this old post. I tried to see if the pondowner would reply, give an update on how his HSB are doing in his pond etc but no reply.

I can make calls or emails but it seems that it is one of those things in the Michigan Beurocracy that 'it depends who you ask'. Also the law doesn't separate aquaculture from private pond owner. Also I imagine it is different since my ponds has no inlet or outlet but others might.

See this thread
Michigan Pond owner stocked HSB

I can ask a contact at the Michigan DNR but I think the biologists or enforcement division or somone at HQ in Lansing need to give an official ruling, not the local officer in my area.

I see several advantages to the FHM, GSH, scud, grass shrimp, maybe native crayfish...PAUSE.... then perch, HSB later strategy.

searching for info online...
Found this link with pictures of record HSB from various states. The Indiana one looks huge for a northern state type growth pattern.

Photo album of HSB record catches, 2 pages

Also see in this webpage they list state record for Michigan caught in the Kalamazoo river about 30 miles from my pond. Now how did a HSB get in the Kalamazoo river? I guess white bass are found natively in Michigan but how did it find a striped bass to mate with?

see table about 1/2 way down this web page. MI record 10 pounds, Indiana 18!

Table of records HSB

Canyon, Nope, they are illegal. If it's illegal for a fish farm in MI to raise them, it's also illegal for you to stock them in your pond. If they are illegal to bring into MI, they are also illegal to stock in your pond. Really no grey area here, but it takes some time to sort thru this mess.

Jeff Van Brocklin must fish a lot (3 times a week for steelhead at the Allegan dam per this article. Lives in Fennville, MI, His photo and fish is in there too) He holds the HSB record.

VanBrocklin

JKB, can you show me the documentation? DNR regulations, web page, personal communication from DNR, etc? Perhaps the fish farm chooses to not raise them? Which fish farm are you referring to?

It was discussed on the PB forum already that in the case of some fish farms that it was NOT illegal for them to bring them to Michigan but they CHOSE to put them on their list that they would not bring to Michigan because of the paperwork, fish testing requirements etc.

Esshup, did you research this to some degree once? Rainman?

I'm not gonna argue with you

If no one knows you have illegal fish in your pond how can they arrest you if the 'cops' don't know where to go? Blabber mouths will be your demise.

Link to the Michigan NRCS offices

http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detailfull/mi/home/?cid=nrcs141p2_024617


re: compacting clay. You have to have the proper moisture content. Too much and it squeezes out from under the sheepsfoot roller, too little and it won't compact. If the clay is frozen I doubt that you will get the proper compaction. I'd be leery of 12" thick layer - that's 2 lifts. I'd plan on 3 lifts (18") minimum, and like Bill said about a well sealed pond, 4 lifts (24") would be better. If the pond isn't sealed, it's like trying to fill up a bathtub with water with the plug only partially sealing the hole.

Bill, if the pond was dug to 25' or even deeper to get the proper amount of clay (nebermind having to worry about the slope and being able to drive the equipment to properly compact it) couldn't the diffuser be placed at 15' depth and just not worry about the deepest part of the pond being aerated?

Good point. Yes a diffuser could be placed at some shallower depth than the maximum depth. Thus all the water above diffuser depth would be mixed and aerated. The more of the pond volume that can be circulated the less chance of a fish kill will occur. For an average 0.5 ac MI pond expect the pond to mix naturally down to around 6ft maybe 7ft deep. Everything deeper will likely be devoid of oxygen at a minimum of July-August especially after year 3 as the pond ages and becomes more eutrophic.

A 1/2 acre 20+ft dug pond has a wide V shape. A large majority of the water is in the top aerated 15-16ft, which means the water volume deeper than 16ft will have low volume and minimal influence on the aerated portion, if the pond turns over and has anoxic water in the deepest part of the pond. Thus fish kills should be very rare.

Canyoncreek, HSB are NOT on the Michigan state approved species list for aquaculture facilities in the registration application and here is an excerpt from MDARD....


You do not need an Aquaculture Research Permit or Aquaculture Facility Registration for:

• a retail bait outlet,
• retail ornamental fish facilities
• using privately controlled waters for noncommercial purposes
• public aquariums or zoos
• portable retail fishing concessions.

...Taken from the following Michigan.gov web page....

http://www.michigan.gov/mdard/0,4610,7-125-1569_16979_21263---,00.html

I believe the discussion referred to that we had of fish not being brought into Michigan was concerning Tilapia (now legal in MI) and Michigan's recent creation of a State Vet and that person's ability to create rules at any time, without due process or notice has caused many suppliers to pass on entering the state for fear of random violations being charged. Even if able to defend a charge and win, the costs and exposure are too high to risk.

Thanks Rainman, Bill, JKB. I'd like to see who I can talk to at headquarters. After all, it is the state I live in and pay taxes to. They should be willing to help me with my questions rather than bury me in their paperwork or legal mazes. I agree Rainman that it is a shame that not only do you not clearly know the law or how the law is applied but you have to use 'defensive' maneuvers to avoid legal challenges because of the high cost of defending yourself. As if you are guilty until proven innocent!

Who is the new State Vet. The State Vet decides the rules about fish stocking?

I don't doubt what you folks are saying but it would be nice to have it clarified or cleared up if possible. If not, then I agree with Rainman, you are best off steering WAY clear of any trouble.

I have an alibi, I witnessed someone bucket stock some unknown fish into my pond. But I hate to have to get entangled in a messy legal situation.

A lot more to this than your Lollipop visions. I really dislike 5.0.2. Sigh