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I'm significantly North of you and will continue to feed as long as they will eat. If I get warm spell, I'll toss out some more.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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As an additional note, I always hand feed my fish hydrated pellets aka softened pellets. I do this for several reasons, four main reasons are 1. smaller fish can easily eat a larger pellet and expend less energy getting that pellet. 2. a non pellet trained fish will much more readily accept and learn to eat a soft pellet compared to a hard pellet, 3. softened or moist pellets are easier and quicker for fish to digest in cold water, and 4. I can easily mold together several pellets into a large pellet for larger fish. Many fish seem to "like" the larger soft pellets compared to smaller hard pellets. The large pellet can either float or sink depending on how much air is squeezed from the pellet grouping. The larger fish appear to prefer the larger pellets because the larger fish rise primarily for the large pellets or grouping of pellets and ignore small pellets. Hydrated pellets are more time consuming and bothersome to produce, however I do not feed a lot of pellets each day and I think the benefits of using soft pellets for me in the long run outweigh the disadvantages. I live and work at the pond site so softening pellets is not a big problem.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/23/15 11:24 AM.

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+1..

I'm a fan of hydrated pellets myself.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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One reason to keep feeding a little , if they will eat is to stop what Bill describes ... "Some fish will even utilize body protein for energy production when fat reserves are depleted." On this point take note that the usage by many fish species of their lipid (fat) reserves to a large extent can lead to death.

Here is a past note on HSB reaction to cold and its effects on body metabolism and function leading to death.

It is believed that the lipid composition in the fish muscle plays a vital role in the ability of fish to adapt from one temperature to another . Due to cellular disfunction from low lipids the fish lock up stiffen and heart and respiration stop.

For example, the Nile tilapia Oreochromis niloticus does not store excess lipids in the musculature but rather relies on visceral deposits that it is incapable of mobilizing at low temperatures, which results in high mortalities between 8°C and 6.5°C (Satoh et al. 1984).



The dynamics of lipid composition of cells occurs in order to maintain a constant fluid matrix for enzymes associated with membranes (Greene and

Selivonchick 1990). Different species of fish differ in their patterns of fat deposition and mobilization, which in turn affects the temperature range in

which the species can grow and survive. the ability of a fish to alter its lipid composition when placed in colder water is one factor that determines survival.

In these fish, the fat apparently hardens in the colder water, causing the fat-impregnated muscles to stiffen and the fish to become exhausted and lose movement.

Physiologically, fish are affected by variations in water temperature in two ways (Hochachka and Somero 1984). First, temperature

determines the rate of chemical reactions, and secondly, temperature dictates the point of equilibrium between the formation and disruption

of the macromolecular structures in biological membranes. Structural flexibility, therefore, is a requirement for integrity of biological membranes

(Hazel 1993). Cold temperatures constrain this flexibility and, as a result, stabilize less active conformations.

The rate of resistance to lower temperatures is governed in part by the rate of metabolism, which is depressed at lower environmental temperatures.

See this thread http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=111414&page=1

For ease of reference -- one post


Death of fish when oxygen is depleted and concentrations of carbon

dioxide build up beneath snow-covered ice is a common phenomenon

in the North Central States (Greenbank, 1945; Bennett, 1948b; Cooper

and Washburn, 1949). For the Marion County farm ponds information

on .occurrence of winterkill has been gathered from two sources: from

farmers and others who observed numbers of dead fish in ponds following

the breakup of ice, and from pond histories that indicate a sudden mass

disappearance of bass, of .bluegills, or of both. While in many cases there

is no evidence as to the time of year when such fish disappeared, heavy

mortality during the summer was observed by *he pond owners only once

(Pond 16) while winterkill was observed frequently. The chances of mass

mortality of fis•h being unobserved are probably greater in the win,ter than

the summer.

It appears that fish populations in 31 of the ponds suffered winterkill

(Table 6). In 15 ponds bass were eliminated but some bluegills survived;

in two ponds the reverse was true, with bluegills winterkilled while some

bass survived. The differential in mortality between these two species may

represent a difference in tolerance to low oxygen levels (though Cooper

and Washrburn, 1949, found none), but more likely it may represent

a difference in location within the pond during wintertime and ability

of some individuals to ioca•te and utilize pockets of water containing suf-

ficient oxygen for survival.

Complete kills of both bass and bluegills occurred in 18 ponds. Thirteen

of the 18 ponds also contained bullheads, and these always survived in

some numbers.

Some ponds winterkill repeatedly, as is shown by the frequency of some

pond numbers in Table 6.

T^BLE &--Known or suspected winterkills of fish in Iowa farm fish ponds

Species eliminated by kill Pond numbers

Bass, but not bluegills ..........................

3, 19, 19, 20, 24, 24, 29, 30, 32,

32, 35, 37, 40, 47, 48, 49, 49, 49,

50, 59

Bluegills, but not bass ..........................

3, 27

Bass and bluegills ...............................

9, 10, 11, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 20,

23, 27, 31, 35, 36, 39, 40, 41, 47,

49, 55, 56

Some bass and some bluegills ...................

94, 15, 25, 37, 45

Winterkill is believed to be a major factor in the lack of population

balance and success of Iowa ponds. The population remaining after an

incomplete kill is often very different than that presen.t before, and the

change is usually unfavorable for .angling (Bennett, 1948a). Of the ponds

which winterkilled, one-half had Ibeen listed as muddy with colloidal clay,

and one-third were known to have had low water levels going into the

winter season.



Data sources used for analysis of geographic variations in acute temperature preferences of fishes.

Redear sunfish, Lepomis microlophm'

Hill et al. (1975) Oklahoma 16.0-26.0

Still others, particularly the centrarchids, showed

occasional low thermal responsiveness. Fishes

continued to seek increased temperatures until

they succumbed due to physiological inability

to adjust to a rapid increase in temperature in

a steep gradient.


When raising hybrid striped bass in cages, several producers have reported sudden losses of hybrids when the water temperature rapidly decreased by several degrees in a relatively short period of time (Valenti 1989; A. M. Kelly and C. C. Kohler, personal observation). The rapid onset of cold temperatures has been reported as the cause of death in several species of fish (Verril 1901; Storey 1937; Galloway 1941; Gunther 1941; Ash et al. 1974; Coutant 1977; Mitchell 1990). It is believed that the lipid composition in the fish muscle plays a vital role in the ability of fish to adapt from one temperature to another (Hazel 1984; Greene and Selivonchick 1987; Henderson and Tocher 1987). Phospholipids are the class of lipids in which the most obvious changes occur. As environmental temperatures decrease, the invariable response is an increase in fatty acid unsaturation (Johnston and Roots 1964; Caldwell and Vernberg 1970; Hazel 1979; Cossins and Prosser 1982). Conversely, as ambient temperatures increase, phospholipid saturation must also increase to avoid excess fluidity. The dynamics of lipid composition of cells occurs in order to maintain a constant fluid matrix for enzymes associated with membranes (Greene and Selivonchick 1990). Different species of fish differ in their patterns of fat deposition and mobilization, which in turn affects the temperature range in which the species can grow and survive. For example, the Nile tilapia Oreochromis niloticus does not store excess lipids in the musculature but rather relies on visceral deposits that it is incapable of mobilizing at low temperatures, which results in high mortalities between 8°C and 6.5°C (Satoh et al. 1984). Viola et al. (1988) demonstrated that the common carp Cyprinus carpio, which is capable of mobilizing lipids from muscular and visceral deposits, is able to survive to 4.5°C under the same conditions.

The amount of unsaturated fatty acids in the muscle is believed to affect a fish's ability to tolerate lower temperatures (Hoar and Dorchester 1949; Hoar and Cottle 1952a, 1952b). In general, the tissue temperature of fish is within 1°C of the ambient water temperature (Carey et al. 1971; Reynolds et al. 1976). Physiologically, fish are affected by variations in water temperature in two ways (Hochachka and Somero 1984). First, temperature determines the rate of chemical reactions, and secondly, temperature dictates the point of equilibrium between the formation and disruption of the macromolecular structures in biological membranes. Structural flexibility, therefore, is a requirement for integrity of biological membranes (Hazel 1993). Cold temperatures constrain this flexibility and, as a result, stabilize less active conformations. The rate of increase in the ability of fish to tolerate higher temperatures usually requires less than 24 h at temperatures above 20°C, whereas the gain in resistance to lower temperatures is a much slower process, requiring up to 20 d in some species (Doudoroff 1942; Brett 1944). The rate of resistance to lower temperatures is governed in part by the rate of metabolism, which is depressed at lower environmental temperatures. The simulated cold front in this study resulted in higher mortalities
Diets influence the fatty acid composition in several species of fish (Henderson and Tocher 1987; Lovell 1989; Seo et al. 1994), and the ability of a fish to alter its lipid composition when placed in colder water is one factor that determines survival. For example, summer harvest syndrome is an anomaly seen in goldfish Carassius auratus when they are harvested in the summer and placed in tanks containing water that is colder than the pond water (Mitchell 1990). The death of these fish is thought to be a result of the fat that the goldfish consume or produce (Mitchell 1990). Goldfish with high concentrations of saturated body fat are less tolerant of temperature change than fish with high concentrations of unsaturated body fat. Similarly, rainbow trout Oncorhynhcus mykiss that have been fed diets high in saturated fats stiffen and die when placed in cold water (Mitchell 1990). In these fish, the fat apparently hardens in the colder water, causing the fat-impregnated muscles to stiffen and the fish to become exhausted and lose movement.

Although it has been hypothesized that temperature is closely linked to membrane composition, relatively few studies have been conducted to determine if a correlation exists between lipid composition and cold tolerance. This study was designed to determine the effect of a sudden temperature change (a simulated cold front) on striped bass, white bass, and their hybrids fed either a natural or prepared diet, as well as to determine their lower incipient lethal temperature. The association of fatty acid composition and unsaturated: saturated fatty acid ratios in these fish were examined with respect to their tolerance to cold.

We demonstrated that diet-induced muscle fatty acid composition directly affects cold tolerance of striped bass, white bass, and their hybrids. Fish fed fathead minnows had fatty acid ratios 10–25% higher than fish fed a prepared diet. When subjected to a simulated cold front, all groups of fish fed the prepared diet suffered high mortality (50–90%) whereas the groups fed the natural diet experienced zero mortalities. The LILT was also higher for fish fed the prepared diet.



Fish deaths due to cold temperatures have frequently been reported. It is generally believed that deaths arise from the rapidity of dropping temperatures whereby the fish are unable to acclimate to the lower temperature despite being within their biokinetic range. It is consequently critical especially in autumn to feed fish of the genus Morone, and possibly other genera, a diet that is relatively low in saturated fats when they are confined to surface waters in cages or pens.

Last edited by ewest; 12/16/14 06:22 PM.















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Any information regarding what the 'prepared diet' may have consisted of?


And thanks again ewest!

Last edited by sprkplug; 12/16/14 06:40 PM. Reason: added thanks.

"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Interesting stuff Eric. Thanks.

Goes along with what N8tly said about winter feed needing a different composition than what we are now feeding.


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OH.








MY.










GOD!




Is this thread still going?!





Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 12/16/14 06:53 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Cecil, you may be thinking of the other thread?

Here: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=394967&page=1


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Great thread. If the water temperature is 45F or above and the fish regardless of the species are willing to eat floating pellets then giving the fish some or a reduced amount of food would IMO be okay. This does at least two things. 1. It keeps the fish better habituated to pellet food. 2. I keeps the fish eating and maintaining their weight or even gaining some weight. A fish that stops actively feeding below 50F has to rely on body fat for nutrition which often means using some body biomass for energy and life processes(see below). Reduced feeding does usually occur in many species during winter water temps of 39-45F depending on water temps. In many ponds with fish biomass at near or above carrying capacity natural foods are usually limited numbers (density) due to the large number of grazers (consumers). Most all ponds that receive fish pellets have fish biomass above normal carrying capacity which means high inter and intra competition. Thus not a lot of natural foods are readily available during the cold water months when fish are crowded. Vulnerable prey items quickly disappear.

When I researched winter fish behavior during cold water temperatures under ice cover for overwintering fish in cages, one reference noted that fish do not need to actively feed or do not need to feed during winter months to stay alive. The reference noted that many fish in 39F water do not have to feed and can absorb enough minerals from the surrounding water to stay alive and healthy until water warms in spring. This assumes dissolved oxygen remains adequate for fish survival.

Several studies have noted that non-feeding fish in winter will loose weight after utilizing fat reserves. Some fish will even utilize body protein for energy production when fat reserves are depleted. When the fish resumes feeding all lost body mass has to be replaced before weight is added to the fish's body condition (weight and growth) prior to when feeding stopped. Anything that the fish can 'safely' eat during cold water conditions will allow more top end growth before it dies. As noted during cold water temperatures, some types of pellet foods might be detrimental to some fish species depending on the fish species and the water temperature.


Thanks Bill!

If we cautiously acknowledge that our current feed choices MAY not contain the optimum formulation of ingredients preferred for cold water feeding, any thoughts on what might constitute a 'cold water blend' for bluegills?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I think a good start for winter diets would be a lower fat content especially one with lower saturated fat.

It is always useful to keep important topics readily available to members. Discussion often leads to new ideas even if it is an old topic.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/16/14 08:52 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I think a good start for winter diets would be a lower fat content especially one with lower saturated fat.

It is always useful to keep important topics readily available to members. Discussion often leads to new ideas even if it is an old topic.


Bill,

Please expand on your thoughts about a low fat diet. I have been following along thru this thread learning at almost every post. I probably have some things wrong and feel free to call me on it. I am here to learn.

My understanding so far is fish pretty much live off their fat when water temperatures drop and feeding slows. My thoughts then went to what would a winter diet consist of that slows that consumption of the built up fat. What would that diet need to be to "preserve" or "build " fat? I guess I was thinking you want a diet high in fat. What diet would slow the depletion of the stored fat?


Last edited by Bill D.; 12/16/14 09:29 PM.

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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Cecil, you may be thinking of the other thread?

Here: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=394967&page=1


My bad. You're right. OTOH it seems to me this thread is similar.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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According to Dr. Brown, fish diet researcher at Purdue it's excess carbs in the artificial diet that are creating the excess fat. That said some types of fats in feed don't dissolve well in cold water digestive tracts.

I has a 7 1/2 inch YOY yellow perch die in one of my tanks today. The netting I use to keep them from jumping out had come loose where it's fastened to the tank and the perch had become gill netted in it. Anyway I skinned it out and will mounting it in a pike's mouth. It's abdominal cavity was loaded with fat.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Cecil, you may be thinking of the other thread?

Here: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=394967&page=1


My bad. You're right. OTOH it seems to me this thread is similar.


Very similar. One based hopefully on science, the other on faith. Sort of a Ptolemaic vs. Heliocentric debate, PondBoss style.



Minus the threats of torture, imprisonment, or being burned at the stake of course.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Cecil, you may be thinking of the other thread?

Here: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=394967&page=1


My bad. You're right. OTOH it seems to me this thread is similar.


Very similar. One based hopefully on science, the other on faith. Sort of a Ptolemaic vs. Heliocentric debate, PondBoss style.



Minus the threats of torture, imprisonment, or being burned at the stake of course.

laugh


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I think a good start for winter diets would be a lower fat content especially one with lower saturated fat.

It is always useful to keep important topics readily available to members. Discussion often leads to new ideas even if it is an old topic.


Bill,

Please expand on your thoughts about a low fat diet. I have been following along thru this thread learning at almost every post. I probably have some things wrong and feel free to call me on it. I am here to learn.

My understanding so far is fish pretty much live off their fat when water temperatures drop and feeding slows. My thoughts then went to what would a winter diet consist of that slows that consumption of the built up fat. What would that diet need to be to "preserve" or "build " fat? I guess I was thinking you want a diet high in fat. What diet would slow the depletion of the stored fat?



Bill D. you took the words out of my mouth. That is also what I got from reading the material. Like maybe we needed a high fat diet going into winter, but it for sure needed to be the "right kind" of fat. The wrong kind would cause the fish to die. ??????????? Did I read everything wrong?

It appears to my non-expert self, that the safest "supplemental winter feeding" would be with supplemental fish. Like minnows or something that would represent very closely to the target fish own makeup.

Last edited by snrub; 12/17/14 09:12 AM.

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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
...Maybe someone from the Texas assemblage can share what has worked for them in winters' past? As for me, in my location, I'm not going to feed. There just appears to be more 'cons' than 'pros', even if the possibility of harming my fish is removed from the picture...

Tony, I do feed all my CNBG winter, but not every day. I hit both feeders late every afternoon, and feed lightly based on hand throws. If the fish are active, I go ahead with a 1-2 second throw. If they have gone deep and are not feeding, then I forgo the feeder throw all together. I feed during the winter for 2 reasons. One, I want to maintain any growth through the cold months, and two, I want to make sure my CNBG don't wander too far away from the feeders at any given time.

The HSB I feed every day by hand.

My water is 52 degrees as of yesterday, and most days the CNBG are still eating well at this temp. Long term, I just don't have enough experience to even venture a guess as to winter growth.

Interesting thread.


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Al, with my very limited experience I agree with what you're doing. Throwing by hand is a great way to gauge the fishes response, to see whether additional feeding is warranted or not. I usually feed down to 50 degrees, then quit unless we have a few warm days in a row.

Our native BG will usually quit feeding before the HBG will, temperature wise.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
...Maybe someone from the Texas assemblage can share what has worked for them in winters' past? As for me, in my location, I'm not going to feed. There just appears to be more 'cons' than 'pros', even if the possibility of harming my fish is removed from the picture...

Tony, I do feed all my CNBG winter, but not every day. I hit both feeders late every afternoon, and feed lightly based on hand throws. If the fish are active, I go ahead with a 1-2 second throw. If they have gone deep and are not feeding, then I forgo the feeder throw all together. I feed during the winter for 2 reasons. One, I want to maintain any growth through the cold months, and two, I want to make sure my CNBG don't wander too far away from the feeders at any given time.

The HSB I feed every day by hand.

My water is 52 degrees as of yesterday, and most days the CNBG are still eating well at this temp. Long term, I just don't have enough experience to even venture a guess as to winter growth.

Interesting thread.


Al,
What type of protein based feed do you throw during the winter? Fish meal or grain based? High or low fat content?
Charlie


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Charlie, I throw Cargill year round. IIRC, the various numbers are pretty close to Purina Aquamax, but I'll check next time I get out.


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Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
Charlie, I throw Cargill year round. IIRC, the various numbers are pretty close to Purina Aquamax, but I'll check next time I get out.



Al,
If you are throwing Cargill, then it is most likely a fish meal protein. I throw cargill 4512 mixed with GFC. 45% protein and 12% fat. Not sure how that stacks up to other pellets. But I think I will continue to throw it this winter.
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Interesting..

I feed Keystone (a fish meal pellet)

Not less than 45% protein
Not less than 16% fat.

When I see the words "not less than" on a label I associate that with being a good thing. I live in Northern Illinois so don't winter feed. I wonder if a high fat content is maybe a good thing for summer feeding?


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Ewest may be able to use his access to the literature to help some more with this. Cecil noted that the high carbohydrate diet is bad for the fish at least most fish. At this point I agree, but I am not a fish nutritionist. Mentioned earlier was complex carbohydrates are not digestible by fish. So if carbs as Cecil (via Dr.Brown)says are creating the excess fat, then the carbs must be simple digestible carbs that are the problem with the fish food creating excess fat. If the carbs are not digestible they will be passed and not create fat. From ewest's post the proper type of fat is also important for the health of at least some fish species; probably the low saturated fats are best.

Keep in mind two things. 1. We usually have ready access on only one type of fish food. So we feed the highest protein food that we have available regardless of the composition or brand.
2. Current diet content of commercial fish foods is to grow the fish quickest for a market harvest. This philosophy has no consideration for a long healthy life span for the fish to grow longer from large size to the trophy categories. Cecil, others, and I are seeing rapid growth of fish fed pellets which leads to early deaths or short life spans i.e. premature deaths. This is not a concern or goal of the fish food manufacturers; rapid growth to harvest size is the goal.

Back to the topic of what is the best food for winter foraging fish. I think it is a food or diet that mimics natural foods of fish in winter. Here is where ewest or others can help. What is the protein, carbohydrate, and fat content of BG, FHM or even common pond invertebrates eaten by most panfish? That composition will most likely be the best diet for sport fish in winter.

Here is a link to what is present in menhaden fish meal.
http://www.ingredients101.com/fishmeal.htm
note the protein and fat content. Fat is primarily fatty acids - oil consistency - unsaturated. Carbohydrates are not listed for menhaden meal.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/17/14 05:23 PM.

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More good stuff...learning a lot!


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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The best food (lipids and protein) are the ones that most closely match those used (present in the) by the consuming i.e. predator fish. More later on some specifics.

The following is from Mark Griffin fish food phd

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Loc: Pacific, MO Just depends on what warm water fish you are feeding and what results you desire. For instance, when grown at 80 F, fingerling Hybrid Striped Bass growth varied significantly, depending on both type and content of dietary protein and content of fat. Catfish formulations are plant based, while good trout/salmon formulations are animal based (preferably fish based). Strictly carnivorous fish do not do as well on plant-protein based diets. Below, diets are described in terms of Protein/fat, so a 40/10 is 40% protein and 10% fat (the OLD reliable trout diet).

36/8 (plant based)... 280% Weight Gain X
42/4 (plant based)....347% " 1.24X
35/10 (fish based)....432% " 1.54X
44/8 (fish based)....487% " 1.74X
55/15 (fish based)....650% " 2.32X**

It is important to note that all of these diets were high quality, they were just designed for different purposes and vary greatly in cost. For instance the 36/8 is designed for channel catfish fingerlings and the 55/15 is designed for Atlantic Salmon fingerlings. The 55/15 may cost 4 times as much as the plant based 36, so the economics are certainly arguable... just depends.

**Additionally, the ultra high growth on the 55/15 should be taken with a grain of salt as it resulted in obese fish (HSB very efficiently lay down dietary fat in their abdominal cavity), indeed the whole-body fat of HSB fed the 55/15 was 62% greater than that of the fish fed the 42/4.

Lets revisit this topic on LMB this fall as Bob Lusk is working on a trial this summer that should give us some more to discuss. Mark


Feather meal as a fish food protein source. There are two primary factors of protein quality for monogastrics (fish for this discussion) - 1) Amino Acid profile and 2) Amino Acid availability. The amino acid profile of feather looks pretty good if you look at the Total Sulfur Amino Acid content. It has a high content of cystine - a sulfur amino acid (SAA). SAAs can be limiting in monogastric diets and tend to be expensive to formulate into diets (they are relatively low in many inexpensive plant proteins). Unfortunately, the reason it is so high is because feather is a structural protein. The di-sulfide bonds between two cysteines make the protein very tough. This is what gives the keratins their structural rigidity - like our hair and fingernails. Unfortunately, this serves to make them very hard to digest. Therefore, as a rule, the availability is not so good. To increase the availability, feather meal is often hydrolyzed, this is an attempot to break down the disulfide bonds to increase availability. Shoe leather analyzes at 85% crude protein, but it is not digestible.

A word on protein sources.... Most protein sources are available in different qualities. This is particularly true for the expensive animal proteins - fish meal, poultry meals, blood meals, etc. Quality and freshness of the raw materials and the processing are factors that result in this variability. As examples:
A) Quality of Raw Materials: Meat meals are often priced on protein content - simply put, it is the ratio of bone (ash) to meat (protein). Bones (minerals, ash) are not as valuable as protein.
B) Freshness of Raw Materials: The US commercial fishing fleet for menhaden now has all refrigerated vessel storage.... the season is in over the summer, primarily in the Gulf of Mexico. Obviously, if it is not refrigerated....
c) Processing: Blood has a good amino acid profile. If it is drum-dried (essentially scorched on a extremely hot steel drum) it has poor availability and is a fairly poor ingredient. If it has been spray dried under low heat - it is an excellent ingredient.

High quality fish meal is the gold standard - it has the best Amino acid profile for fish (fish protein to grow fish protein)and is highly digestible. Further, it tastes great to fish (fish meal based diets are much more palatable to carnivorous fish) and it contains about 10% fish oil (high in omega 3 polyunsaturated fatty acids). Many other proteins can be used as long as they are formulated properly into an overall dietary amino acid profile.

Holler if you have questions. MEG

Last edited by ewest; 12/18/14 04:15 PM.















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