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#394153 12/07/14 03:55 PM
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Has any one stocked yp in the midwest as a forage fish for lm in an established pond?

I have been playing around with different ideas on diversifying my forage base and wondered about the potential of yp.

Anyone have ideas on benefits and possible problems?

The pond, in west central Missouri, has well established lm up to 20 inches, good population of various sized bg, some re, a few gsf and lots mosquito fish that I know of. Pond is 4 acres with lots of submerged brush, a large log pile and some (5% maybe) submerged vegetation. FA has been been an issue in the past, but shore line and underwater vegetation may have helped that last year as well as some spot hydrated lime applications.

My goal with this pond is primarily healthy bass. I am seeing my very small bass (under 8 inches) to be extremely fat with wr's over 100, but all the bass over that length vary the wr's between 80 to over 100. Most are in the high 80's to mid 90's. I am not overly disappointed with that, but do not want the wr's to drop as the pond continues to age. Besides, perch taste good too smile

My current management is to weigh all bass, cull most fish under 15" or anything skinny or unhealthy. Most fish with wr's under 90% get culled. I cull larger bg (over 8") if the are NOT actively spawning. All gsf or apparent hbg's are culled. I have caught plenty of bg between 9 and 10 inches this year.

I am wondering if adding yp would assist in keeping the bass healthy and growing as well as adding another species to fish for. I do understand they can be nest robbers, but since bg's are such great guarders, that shouldn't be too much of an issue (right???) and if some lm nests got robbed, well, that shouldn't hurt too much (right???). Fewer young ones coming up to compete for the forage.

Would adding yp likely do any or all of the following:
1. Establish a successful long term breeding population
2. Increase wr on the larger size bass
3. Substantially effect the bg population.

What am I missing or not thinking of? If this is feasible, how many, what size and when do we do the yellow perch stocking?

Thanks!!

CMM


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Adding YP in your situation will not be a disadvantage. YP will definitely be consumed by the LMB. Maybe there will be too much consumption of YP. Hopefully some YP will survive predation long term since you do have the start of some good habitat of brush and submerged vegetation, although you may not have enough habitat for long term YP survival especially the offspring YP. Not a lot has been published on the amount of submerged habitat that is needed for YP to survive predation by LMB. The amount of habitat and LMB density of per acre and size structure will play a big rolls in YP survival. Dr Willis as SDSU did see survival of YP in LMbass waters, but I do not think the amount of vegetation in those ponds were ever quantified. More work needs to be done on this topic. There is published research of this for BG-LMB.

I suspect in the smaller pond situations (0.3-5ac) the LMB will learn to 'key in' on preying on the YP more than BG since YP-LMB both occupy a similar niche and YP are more fusiform compared to BG even though BG are will be more abundant than YP. I suspect the LMB will eat a larger percentage of YP than BG but remember this is based on the density of YP and BG. For example if we have a new year class of BG, bass are likely to consume 35% of the new BG. But if we have a new year class of BG and YP bass will eat 25%-30% of the new BG and 60%-65% of the new YP. Note - Having an extra forage fish (YP) in the pond may allow more bass YOY to survive and create a need to harvest more bass each year to maintain the same or a good predator - prey balance. As the submerged habitat increases expect the size structure of the fishery to change. Keeping good catch records each will show you if this is happening.

I suggest you thy this supplemental forage stocking and keep good catch records of the catch ratio of BG to YP and stomach contents of harvested bass. YP will not be nest robbers of other fish until the YP become over abundant and stunted. The sunfish will be much more likely to rob nests in your situation compared to the YP.

IMO to have good chances of YP survival of stocked perch initially they should be larger adults so they have a good chance of survival until the first spawn. Then survival of the first year class of YP will be dependent on habitat and bass density.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/07/14 08:24 PM.

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CMM #394172 12/07/14 10:36 PM
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Bill, thanks!

I keep catch records now and would continue to do so. I can sure add stomach contents to the notes on all culled bass. I also will be tagging some lm in '15. First year for that.

So, spring stocking maybe, large gravid females included in the mix? I wonder if 100 adults would be enough? Or am I underestimating by a long shot?

Anyone know of reputable yp dealer in west central mo?

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In 4 acres, 100 adult sized YP (25/ac) would be a good number to experiment with to see if they survive and can recruit some young perch. You may have a pretty hard time locating adult YP in MO or your region. Rainman may be able to deliver some larger YP to you on a return trip or while making his delivery rounds depending on his trips and schedule. It would be best if you could add the YP prior to spawning or late fall. Spawning of YP in MO is probably in February.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/08/14 11:27 AM.

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Too bad this this wasn't posted earlier. I just returned home Saturday from delivering some HSB from 6" up to 4# and several thousand YP from 3" up to a pound each. I had some orders for multiple year classes of each.

Most all of the female YP over 9" were already fat with eggs...


The dip net is 19 inches across....





Last edited by Rainman; 12/08/14 12:09 PM. Reason: add pics


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Any nest robbing done by YP might actually be a good thing, helping to control an over population of LMB...



CMM #394200 12/08/14 12:28 PM
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IN larger lakes the ones with good perch population also have large bluegills. Perhaps the perch keep the bluegills under control?


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






CMM #394201 12/08/14 01:11 PM
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You may want to wait until next fall of 2015 to stock YP if you can't find them this spring. Later stocking will also allow your submerged weed habitat to enlarge a little more increasing chances of survival of YP fry-fingerlings.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/08/14 01:12 PM.

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Bill Cody #394209 12/08/14 01:49 PM
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CMM, how many of the large BG are you taking out per year?


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
CMM #394265 12/08/14 06:50 PM
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esshup,

I am taking out 80-90 bluegill- all over 8inches- per year. Again, if they are on the beds, I am releasing to help recruitment.

Cecil Baird1,

I am in no way opposed to large bluegill (how could anyone hold anything against a fat bluegill!), but larger, fatter bass is a higher priority smile

Rainman,

I was hoping the yp would help thin the lm, I cull gobs of 4-8 inch bass- those buggers will hit any fly, even if it is 3X their size!
Those fish you delivered looked great. May be too late to stock for me in 2015, but hopefully, fall/winter of 2015 I can give you a call and check on your yp situation.

Bill Cody,

Thanks for all the feedback, thoughts and help. I had no idea where to start on a number for initial stocking on those yp!

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CMM #403185 03/09/15 10:03 AM
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Hey guys havent posted much but do a LOT of browsing and have gotten some great info so thank you! I have a couple questions about stocking YP as forage also.

Some pond info:
approx. 2 acres in NW Illinois.
Plenty of large BG and CC.
Large stunted LMB population.
Approx. 12 years since it was stocked.
17' max depth and good vegetation around the shore and some in the shallow areas off shore.
Fairly clear water.

Here is my plan/question(s)
I am planning on adding YP, new LMB (tagged and being stocked to add new genetics), and some musky to help with my lack of harvesting (its hard to just kill fish for no reason since i dont really eat fish to much haha. From what i understand above 7" YP are mostly females so i was planning on adding about 15lbs of 7"+ and then 200 in the 5-7" category along with some shiners and the other fish mentioned. Do you think this is enough to give them a decent chance at establishing? Going to try and harvest as many 13"- LMB as i can prior to this but im not sure how many i will be able to remove.I would like to get them established as quickly as i can so if i need to add more i am willing to. I was hoping the shiners would be a "decoy" and take some of the heat off the YP. Any suggestions will be very welcome! Thanks guys!

CMM #403187 03/09/15 10:13 AM
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Welcome to posting, Zslow6!

What kind of cover do you have to offer your new yellow perch?

CMM #403191 03/09/15 10:34 AM
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As far as natural cover the pond has about 5' of reeds/top water grass that extends from the shore along with underwater vegetation. I would say that about 35-45% of the pond has vegetation. Also we have been adding man made structures in the form of PVC trees (4 so far) and about 3 pallet pyramid cribs (not sure what else to call them). Going to add more in a few days before the ice melts and over the summer as well.

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Your musky will also eat larger YP esp when the musky is less than 36"-40". It would be a really great study to see what percentage of YP vs LMB that the musky consumes over course of one year. IMO your emergent vegetation will be helpful for maintaining YP in the pond esp if you focus more on removing smaller LMB. Try an keep records for us and you as to the ratio of LMB vs YP that you catch angling. Also note the lure used which can bias the catch of LMB vs YP. These data will give you quantitative answers over time if your stocking plan is working.

FYI older male YP can also be larger sizes 9"-14". IMO shiners will serve as a 'decoy'. You can monitor the remaining relative shiner density by using baited fish traps.

I am sure there are some local people near you that would like to have the 8"-12" LMB to clean and eat. Maybe check around for this as an option. Even more people would like it if you cleaned the bass for them which any true conservation minded angler would do. Any relatives that like to eat fish? I like to use cleaned fish to repay favors that people do for me.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/09/15 01:59 PM.

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CMM #403208 03/09/15 11:56 AM
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I am a little nervous since the hatchery says the muskie are between 9-14" so i think their survival will be iffy but i cant get anything larger until fall so i figured its worth the shot considering the price of everything else. I understand they can get over 7" but the hatchery says most of theirs over that are female (guessing they just grow quicker) but im sure some of the smaller ones will be both male and female. I guess my worry is if that will be a large enough quantity to give them a shot or if im seriously underestimating the LMB predation.

Do you guys think it would be beneficial to remove the CC? i have heard they start competing with the LMB after a certain size (i have caught them on texas rigs and crank baits so seems to make sense) or do you think they could help control the bass population? they dont seem to be aggressive enough to get larger bass but might be taking any of the other possible forage away (not sure if there are any crawfish in the pond or not).

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I think and in my experience the larger CC will eat more YP than LMB because of the behavior of YP & LMB that puts the YP more in the predatory search of CC than small bass. Since you are buying just a few musky the fish place may select them toward the larger sizes of 12"-14" if you ask or offer to pay a premium for the larger ones. If your bass are not much bigger than 13" then the smaller stocker musky should survive okay if there are proper sized fish for them to be eating right after stocking. Plus you have some shoreline emergent weed cover for refuge of the stockers which will help survival. Prior to stocking make a concerted effort to fish out bass even if you have to use FHM or shiners as bait. Your bass will quickly repopulate.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/09/15 01:55 PM.

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CMM #403223 03/09/15 03:25 PM
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Thanks for those suggestions. There are a few large (3-4lb) bass but mostly they are in the 10-16" range and a bit skinny. I will try to get the CC out as soon as possible as long as their absence wont hurt anything.

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How big are the CC?


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CMM I have a shipment of YP in NE in Spring - fish will be age 1 2014 class and probably 4-8" - larger fish will be females, smaller likely males. Let me know if I can help you out - have several clients ordering and I have a few ordered for myself. Maybe Rex can pay a visit and deliver to you unless he's got a line on fish sooner than he suggested. Happy to help my PB family if I can, let me know.

Cool experiments guys - I can't wait to see how thing go for you. The few YP that make it through the predators should be impressive. I want to see some 14" MO YP!


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Bill D. #403300 03/10/15 08:41 AM
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About 28" and probably 10lbs? I attached a pic of one my buddy caught.

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If you are not feeding the fish pellets those CC are eating fish as a main diet over the course of the year. Consider how many and what size of fish a similar sized bass eats and the weight consumed is similar to that of the fish eaten by the CC. The CC gets his food primarily at night when many fish are 'resting', while the bass feeds a lot during the day. Both predators do some feeding during opposite periods. If you want a decent YP population get those bigger predators out. Angling with larger live baits often targets larger bass and CC. Think larger chubs from creeks and medium BG or 4"-5" LMB from the pond as baits.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/10/15 08:57 AM.

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Yea i have been thinking they are an issue. Definitely going to get them out. The guy who caught that uses home made stink baits so im going to let me take them. Had bad luck using BG...lost a good bass from a spine puncturing its throat. Might be a crazy question but can you trap CC? my limited knowledge of catfish it seems like it would be similar to trapping any bottom dweller?

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My experience is trapping larger CC is not real successful, but my technique might not have been the best. Wise angling may be the best method for CC removal. Baiting the area prior to angling area IMO will be very helpful to consistently catching the CC. Expect to catch only one each time you fish due to them releasing fright/flight hormones when hooked. But numerous outings can remove significant numbers. Let us know about your catfishing adventures.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/10/15 10:51 AM.

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Jug fishing might be something to consider. Not exactly trapping, but similar principle. I've heard others have success.

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Use a 20 oz coke bottle with about 42" of line attached to neck. Use strong hook and lite weight. Hook a 3"+- bluegill in top behind dorsal fin so it don't kill it, throw out around lake and just wait for the bottle to start moving around with a fish on it. Works good and doesn't scare the other fish.. Use strong line cause they not tired out when you finally get a hold of the bottle. Use a net
It fishes while you do whatever you want

Pat

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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
CMM I have a shipment of YP in NE in Spring - fish will be age 1 2014 class and probably 4-8" - larger fish will be females, smaller likely males. Let me know if I can help you out - have several clients ordering and I have a few ordered for myself. Maybe Rex can pay a visit and deliver to you unless he's got a line on fish sooner than he suggested. Happy to help my PB family if I can, let me know.

Cool experiments guys - I can't wait to see how thing go for you. The few YP that make it through the predators should be impressive. I want to see some 14" MO YP!


Teehjaeh57,

I am very interested in your YP. I am worried that most of the 4" fish won't make it due to predation by lm though. Is that a reasonable worry? I believe 100 larger yp is what was recommended for my 4 acre pond with established lm and bg.
What kind of pricing are we looking at for these fish, delivered? If I understand correctly, I will have to check with RM (Rex) on delivery prices? Will the females be spawned out already?

Hate to disappoint you but I am not sure my pond will deliver 14" MO perch for you, I am looking at these as an additional forage for the LM, (and possibly some hsb later if they establish well??).

This was a happy post to see on my lunch bread!! YP, YP, YP make my LM Happy, Happy Happy!
CMM


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Teehjaeh57
PM sent!
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Update for this thread. Rex, Rainman, is scheduled to be out here later this month with 100 yp. 65 probable females and 35 smaller hopefully males. Will try for some pics of the fish.

In anticipation of the stocking, I added 8 brush piles as spawning and hideouts for the YP. My vegetation has also expanded some with coon tail, brushy and American pondweed and primrose. Oh, and a small floating island. Don't know how much help for spawning the primrose will be, but the big bass love to hide under that stuff.

Next year, yp on the fly!!! And fatter bass I hope.

I will post average wr for the lm from this year once I get the numbers run to compare with years going forward.

Cmm


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I am confident this experiment will work, and I think you'll be surprised by size your adults may achieve. There won't be many fish in the upper ranges, so competition for resources will be lower, resulting possibly in some real trophies.


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CMM #426019 10/07/15 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: CMM
Update for this thread. Rex, Rainman, is scheduled to be out here later this month with 100 yp. 65 probable females and 35 smaller hopefully males. Will try for some pics of the fish.

In anticipation of the stocking, I added 8 brush piles as spawning and hideouts for the YP. My vegetation has also expanded some with coon tail, brushy and American pondweed and primrose. Oh, and a small floating island. Don't know how much help for spawning the primrose will be, but the big bass love to hide under that stuff.

Next year, yp on the fly!!! And fatter bass I hope.

I will post average wr for the lm from this year once I get the numbers run to compare with years going forward.

Cmm


I am confused, I thought with YP you want more males than females to have multiple males available to fertilize each egg strand. Have I got it mixed up?

Last edited by Bill D.; 10/07/15 06:30 PM. Reason: Clarification

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Bill D. #426023 10/07/15 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I am confused, I thought with YP you want more males than females to have multiple males available to fertilize each egg strand. Have I got it mixed up?


Probably not. As far as I know it's multiple males per single female to make sure the eggs get covered.

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Bill D, I thought I read somewhere more males also, but Rex said I had it backwards. That is normal for me!

This is an experiment for me. I want more and diverse forage for the lm, but I also thought that I could enjoy a tasty yp sammich once in a while too. I just can't see myself eating broiled golden shiners, even with lemon and garlic.

Really hoping I have the right mix of cover for some recruitment.

Cmm


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Thanks for the confirmation JKB

CMM,

Now I am curious, why are you stocking females 2:1 to males. Won't you just end up with a lot of unfertilized eggs?

Bill D.


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CMM,

Looks like we were posting at the same time. smile

Maybe Rainman will see these posts and provide the answer.

Anyway, ya can't beat a YP sandwich!


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Bill D. I am sure hoping the males will stay busy with all those girls. They should be young and full of themselves.

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I found where I read about ratio of male to female...

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
For good fertilization of eggs they suggest more males than females and a ratio of 10:1 or more. Cecil will have input. You can get fertilization with a 50:50 mix but you will likely see eggs in the strands that are not fertilized.

One thing you can do is keep all or some the fish in the cage until they lay eggs. Cecil and I get YP laying eggs in cages all the time. Remove selected egg strands and hatch them in the pond on brush, baskets or live boxes. After the spawn hand pick the YP you want to grow out and continue as brood stock. One year old males from the 2014 hatch will be available to fertilize next years egg strands.



I found it here...

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=407571&page=1

Last edited by Bill D.; 10/08/15 11:31 AM.

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My post should have read for 100% fertilization of all YP egg ribbons a 10:1 male to female ratio is suggested by the "experts". This ratio was likely proposed for a high YP production commercial goal. For regular sport fish growing a lower ratio of M:F will definitely result in lots of fertilized eggs. If one's goal is to have lots of larger fast growing perch for harvest which will be mostly the females, then the M:F ratio can be close to a 50:50 or even 30:70 ratio. The 30M:70F ratio should still provide plenty of fertilized eggs for the regular sport fishery.


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Has there been a thread on pondboss on how to sex male vs female perch by their physical characteristics (visible on the outside at least)?

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Urogenital opening - females are crescent, males are round. Also female YP will be noticeably gravid in Fall, Winter and Spring prior to spawn. I posted several photos in threads in the past regarding this, should be helpful if you can track them down. I think most were ice fishing last Winter.


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Here is a link to a previous PBoss Forum discussion about sexing yellow perch. TJ reports he reliably determines YP sex at all times of the year.

In my experience the best accuracy of determining sex is in spring when females have swollen bellies containing eggs (prespawn) and presence of milt from males. Also a for a couple weeks post spawn the females are easily recognizable by having noticeably enlarged genial orifices. IMO at other times if you are careful and diligent sexing YP using genital orifice shape it results in 90%-95% accuracy. In my experience this technique works best on mature fish that have spawned at least once.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=28819&Number=369678#Post369678

Cecil Did you ever ask Rob Rode why YP need a cold period for egg development if YP usually start egg development in August-September?

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Per Bill, easiest right before spawn for sure, there's really no way to miss a gravid female vs fusiform male, and of course milting is 100% verification. I'd agree 90-95% accuracy with urogenital opening per Cody - I separate them based on initial review regardless of season, but cage them and always check again in March/April right before the spawn to make sure I was right. Again, 90-95% of the time initial estimate was correct. When in doubt, I toss them in the male cage.


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Just remember, if you are going for a single sex YP pond, one fish of the wrong sex will put all your work and effort in the trash can.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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At what age do female YP produce viable egg ribbons?

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I found where I read about ratio of male to female...

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
For good fertilization of eggs they suggest more males than females and a ratio of 10:1 or more. Cecil will have input. You can get fertilization with a 50:50 mix but you will likely see eggs in the strands that are not fertilized.

One thing you can do is keep all or some the fish in the cage until they lay eggs. Cecil and I get YP laying eggs in cages all the time. Remove selected egg strands and hatch them in the pond on brush, baskets or live boxes. After the spawn hand pick the YP you want to grow out and continue as brood stock. One year old males from the 2014 hatch will be available to fertilize next years egg strands.



I found it here...

Bill D, thanks! That's what I remembered!

Bill C, thanks for the clarification. I do have a very small, less than 1/2 acre, pond, but it is chock full of gsf and two lm right now. I plan on draining it this fall, hitting it hard with lime and then using it as a grow out in just the manner you suggested. With no aeration, I won't put too many in, but think I can do some grow out/seining. Right now I use it as a bait pond for gsf when I go cat fishing.

Cmm


http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=407571&page=1


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I have seen viable YP eggs in 1 yr old female northern perch usually in females that are 7"-8" long. I have also seen spawn season eggs in a YP that was 3.75" long (I have the picture) which I assume was a 1 yr old female.


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I have seen viable YP eggs in 1 yr old female northern perch usually in females that are 7"-8" long. I have also seen spawn season eggs in a YP that was 3.75" long (I have the picture) which I assume was a 1 yr old female.


Something sticks in my memory (from a long time ago) that is basically what you are saying.

The 3-4 year maturity deal I recently read didn't sound right.

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That is great news considering the 100 small YP that I added this spring. Hopefully the males will be ready as well.

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Good news, Rex is delivering yp to me tomorrow! Bad news, possibility of rain (the Rainman cometh). I have chains and a back hoe... Please Lord let that be enough.

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Get some pictures of when Rex is stuck in the mud. Pics of the fish would be good too!

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Get some pictures of when Rex is stuck in the mud. Pics of the fish would be good too!


grin


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Bill and Cecil, don't be so hard on the poor guy. So long as he doesn't shoot up any plumbing, I think we will be good.

I will get some pics though!

Cmm


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Rainman considers me his adopted mom. He often needs a mother's advice and guidance. Mothers are for good parenting not being the child's best friend.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/15/15 07:23 PM.

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Originally Posted By: CMM
Good news, Rex is delivering yp to me tomorrow! Bad news, possibility of rain (the Rainman cometh). I have chains and a back hoe... Please Lord let that be enough.

Cmm


You won't need anything. Once Rex gets going, there's no stopping him.
Well, on second thought, you might need a chainsaw, if there are any trees in the area.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Rainman considers me his adopted mom. He often needs a mother's advice and guidance. Mothers are for good parenting not being the child's best friend.


If that's the case Bill, maybe you should PM me your number in case your baby gets in trouble. Lol

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Yeah, setter, I have chainsaws. But I am afraid to ask...
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My moneys on Rex to get those fish in the puddle healthy and happy, regardless of possible property damage that may be incurred!


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No doubt,Bill, no doubt! If the rains hold off, we shouldn't have any problems at all. Can't wait to meet the new residents, oh, and Rex too!

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Rainman considers me his adopted mom. He often needs a mother's advice and guidance. Mothers are for good parenting not being the child's best friend.


I felt like you were my second dad at the first Pond Boss convention where we roomed together. grin


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: CMM
Bill and Cecil, don't be so hard on the poor guy. So long as he doesn't shoot up any plumbing, I think we will be good.

I will get some pics though!

Cmm


Yes for God's sake cover your pond plumbing! grin


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: CMM
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Rainman considers me his adopted mom. He often needs a mother's advice and guidance. Mothers are for good parenting not being the child's best friend.


If that's the case Bill, maybe you should PM me your number in case your baby gets in trouble. Lol

Cmm


wink


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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This should be a picture of the yellow perch Rainman delivered this afternoon! They are BIG, healthy, and, I hope, happy enough to pull a spawn in a few months.
The rain held off, no one got stuck, and all the PVC is in the same condition as it was this morning. We had a nice visit with Rex after the fish were released. What a funny man!

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HMMM, maybe I need to resize that and try again...

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Those were some premium stocker yellow perch. Nice fish that are definitely big enough to spawn. How many of those per acre did you add? Did Rex say where he got them??

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Those are beauties!


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Second try on the YP photo...
Well, now it won't load at all... I am technologically challenged. Trust me, they are beautiful.

Goal for adding these is to establish a breeding population primarily as more forage for the LM. WR for the larger bass (over 15") is averaging around 90% (This is a preliminary number, I haven't completed my spreadsheets for the year and compiled all the data yet). I would like to maintain or increase that. I chose YP because I like the idea of a forage fish that I can also eat on occasion.

Future stocking plans, at least my current thoughts, are to add HSB once I am sure they would not impact the forage enough to lower WR on the LM.

I will try to revisit this thread at least yearly to post WR on LM as well as stomach contents on culled LM to confirm that they will target the YP over the BG.

Thanks to so many of you for advice, offers of help and an overall great place to get info and a laugh. Special thanks to Rex for making the delivery.

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Bill C and Bill D,

I asked for a total of 100 fish in a 4 acre pond. Well, 4 acres at full pool anyway smile We did not count the fish, but I would bet on more than 100 by at least a few. Yes, Rex did tell me where he got them. My memory is not my best feature. I am quite sure it was North, maybe Wisconsin or Minnesota??? Sheeze, maybe he will see this and chime in.

Yes, they sure were pretty and bigger than I expected. All swam away very nicely with none looking at all stressed. I could not notice extremely distended bellies on any of them, but, 1. I didn't handle each and every fish. 2. I have NO idea how fat a YP should be this far before the spawn. 3. I am not even sure when YP will spawn in MO. I have been told to watch just after the ice goes off, or around Feb, early March.

Lots to learn.

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Please post here if you notice that they are spawning next spring. I'm watching mine in NE Missouri. Hoping they spawn. I've sunk three big cedar trees, thinking that they will work. Those YP look healthy to me.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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SetterGuy,

You may be able to hear me whoop all the way over in NE MO if I see strands in the spring, but I will update.
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Put some brushy tree branches at the shoreline extending out to 2ft deep. Look for egg ribbons on the twigs or lying around the brush. The YP may have come from Ohio since I was told Rex was there picking up Perch on Sunday and then delivered perch to CMM in MO on Monday.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/17/15 09:55 PM.

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I'll do that. Depending on recent rains, my pond fluctuates a few feet, so the cedar trees, which are pretty far from the shoreline, can be submerged a few feet, or just beneath the surface.
Laying them down, right from the bank, makes sure they are at the right depth. Should I use a very dense branch, lime from a cedar, or something with a lot of open space, like a leafless dead branch from a oak?
Thanks


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
The YP may have come from Ohio since I was told Rex was there picking up Perch on Sunday and then delivered perch to CMM in MO on Monday.


I may need to find out who the snitch is!!!!

Bill, Cimberlee, the YP did come from Steve Hiteman at Shelby Fish Farm. I also got some 12"+ Walleye and YP that Yolkie will be angling for soon.

Loading 2+ ton of Alum and heading to Cisco's in Texas today....


Bill, The original plan was to show up at your place Saturday afternoon and walk in saying..."MOM, I'm Home....Where's dinner??"

Last edited by Rainman; 11/18/15 10:55 AM.


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Dinner was ready and it got cold and then I fed it to the dog. Dog was very happy you did not show up. Did the walleye come from Shelby too? The friends in the fishery circles talk. Rexxy you driving that new fancy high cost fish truck yet or is it still rusty or still delivering fish in an old wagon?

I add my brush each spring and remove the brush after the spawn. You don't need a lot of brush to get good spawns when the egg ribbon has 8000-30000 eggs. Some will leave brush in all year in deeper water but deep you often can't see if you are getting eggs or not and how many eggs have been laid. I add shoreline brush each spring at ice out to control the number of egg strands that are allowed to hatch. Twiggy brush is best for perch. Some tree species have limbs with more twigs than others. I like small dogwood trees. Some have good luck with artificial Xmas tree branches. Real evergreen branches may also work okay.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/18/15 12:25 PM.

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Well, Ohio IS north of me smile where ever they are from, they are lovely. Thanks again Rex.

Good luck with the rest of your travels, I hope "mom" feeds you well.

Cmm


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody

I add my brush each spring and remove the brush after the spawn. You don't need a lot of brush to get good spawns when the egg ribbon has 8000-30000 eggs. Some will leave brush in all year in deeper water but deep you often can't see if you are getting eggs or not and how many eggs have been laid. I add shoreline brush each spring at ice out to control the number of egg strands that are allowed to hatch. Twiggy brush is best for perch. Some tree species have limbs with more twigs than others. I like small dogwood trees. Some have good luck with artificial Xmas tree branches. Real evergreen branches may also work okay.


Thanks Bill. This is exactly what I needed.. I'll have branches in at ice out. It's hard to tell how many YP I have. I may "not" want them to spawn. I may have stocked too many, but they've all but disappeared since I caught 30 early this fall. I thought there were 1,200 stocked, but I can't find a single one in a one acre pond. If i do have 1,170 left, maybe I should discourage any spawning activity?


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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Placing brush and watching for eggs will give a good indication if some are still present. Watch for eggs when surface water is stable at 48F-50F. My YP prefer the east bank but I find eggs on the south and west shores. In some local ponds the YP prefer the north shore. YP in your pond may favor one shoreline. Place a little brush on each directional shoreline to find out which shoreline gets the most egg strands.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/19/15 10:20 AM.

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Bill great advice! Thinking back, my only egg strand this spring was on the east shore as well. I put tree branches in on the west shore and had a egg strand without a branch on the east shore!

The fish were put in about 4 weeks after ice out this spring and a few were big enough to lay eggs, but due to water temps and timing I think most probably spawned in the pond at the fish farm.

They are getting plump now so I'll be sure to put trees in on the 4 banks and watch where the strands go.

I'm likely to remove the eggs as I have a small pond and no predators yet but we'll see.

Setterguy, don't worry, I never see mine either. My fish were pellet trained but I don't see them take surface pellets But they easily go in traps that are baited with pellets so I know they are there and getting chubby. I think they just hang out under the goldfish and shiners that are cleaning up on the surface and they clean up the bottom.

Last edited by canyoncreek; 11/19/15 10:53 AM.
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I have two large artificial Christmas trees I was going to sink, maybe I will see how the yp like the branches as spawn areas. I have lots of brush close to the shore, but want the best possible recruitment.

Thanks for the tips Bill

Cmm


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Some natural submerged vegetation will significantly help recruitment of YP to a size the fingerlings are most beneficial as forage.


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Some natural submerged vegetation will significantly help recruitment of YP to a size the fingerlings are most beneficial as forage.

+1.
At least in my pond, I did not confirm any YP recruitment for several years despite regular stockings. This last year, vegetation has really taken off, there are a number of weedbeds adjacent to deep water, and I've caught a large number of YP that were obviously hatched this spring.

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Yup, have primrose, a few species of pondweed, and coontail in addition to the brush piles. Hoping it all adds up to recruitment.

Thanks again for all the comments and help along the way.

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FWIW I did something a little different this year and I guess we will see how it works out next spring. This summer I put piles of broken concrete next to my brush piles. My thought is getting the YP to spawn is the first step. Hopefully, the slab piles covered in algae will give any frye I am lucky enough to get a place to quickly seek refuge from predation and improve survival. I have no idea if that will work.

Last edited by Bill D.; 11/24/15 08:28 PM. Reason: Clarification

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Bill D, let me know if you thinks it helps your recruitment. Sure sounds good to me, let's see what the yp think!

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My YP were stocked by Rainman in October.(YEAH!) My goal is abundant reproduction for LM forage. To help judge if they help the wr for the lm, I am going to post 2015 results from my charting efforts. About 95% of fish caught were charted. 24 LM were tagged. I plan to tag 5 or 6 LM each year going forward.

Total lm caught: 213, 142 culled
Ave length: 10.3"
Ave WR: 83%
159 <12", 124 were culled
15 12"-16", 6 were culled
39 >16" 12 were culled

Total BG caught: 492, 19 were culled, all culled fish were over 9"
13< 5"
295 5"-8"
184 >8

I also caught 19RES, 45 GSF and 11 that looked like various hybrids between the GSF, RE and BG. All GSF and Hybrids were culled.

I have no idea what a reasonable goal is for a single year increase in WR would be, but my ultimate goal would be to have ave wr of all lm to be over 90% for the year.

Happy to hear feedback, questions, comments and suggestions.

I think Bill Cody suggested documenting stomach contents on culled LM. That will be done in 2016.

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Originally Posted By: canyoncreek

Setterguy, don't worry, I never see mine either. My fish were pellet trained but I don't see them take surface pellets But they easily go in traps that are baited with pellets so I know they are there and getting chubby. I think they just hang out under the goldfish and shiners that are cleaning up on the surface and they clean up the bottom.


I must be doing something wrong with my trap, or I've got the wrong type of trap. Would you mind sharing your trap type, and method for catching. I have a trap I suspend at different depths from four small milk jugs. I put a ladies stocking with feed in it, in the center section. I can only catch tadpoles.
I bought a drop net that I lower down with food in the center of it. I must be doing it wrong also. I've only caught tadpoles with it also.

Thanks,
Jeff


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Jeff, I've had best luck sampling FHM, GSH, GSF, RES, PS and BG with the minnow trap placed on the bottom of the pond in 1'-3' of water, with the trap openings placed horizontal to the shoreline.

I can't remember catching a YP in a minnow trap, but I've caught them in the fyke net, and that is placed on the bottom of the pond, not suspended.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
CMM #434620 01/16/16 06:05 PM
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I have a minnow trap and a small fish trap. My YP are maybe too big for either trap. I looked up fyke trap. Maybe I can find a used one.
I'll try the fish trap on the bottom, in about 8' of water? That's deeper than I've been going.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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SetterGuy - Try building yourself a larger trap using 1/4" or 1/2 mesh. Or maybe one of each mesh size. Larger traps can catch both juvenile and adult fish. Traps can be with or without tops depending on how deep you want to place the tarps. If you place wing net leads in front of the trap opening it will catch more fish per set period.
http://www.champlinnetco.com/lead-wing-2-1-2-mesh-3-deep-per-foot/
http://www.miseagrant.umich.edu/downloads/nets/08-706-Dont-Get-Trapped-trapnets-brochure.pdf


I have homemade larger cylinder traps (12"-24"dia) with a 2"-4" opening in the funnel depending on trap size. I also built my own small trap net. I fish them baited and unbaited. They catch quite a few perch 3" to 8" plus most anything in the pond except LM bass. The bigger traps will even catch walleye and SMB up to 16". All traps are fished on the bottom parallel to shore up to 3ft-4ft deep similar to that described by esshup. Evidently at night, lots of fish some of them large cruse the shallow shoreline areas looking for food.
See some of my traps in my PBoss article May-Jun 2015 pg 28-30. "Sampling Your Pond Fish" Pt 1of2.


See these links for just two ideas.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=259781#Post259781

trap of bz
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=21794&page=2

Google or Bing: Fish trap design
More trap info ideas
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=227171

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=307702&#Post307702

http://myfolderz.com/pics/perchtrap.jpg
http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/X2590E/x2590e31.gif
http://cdn.instructables.com/FE8/M9R8/DKEEPLK0B4V/FE8M9R8DKEEPLK0B4V.LARGE.jpg
http://www.ambergristoday.com/sites/defa...on_jp_94666.jpg

More than you wanted to know about how to:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/x2590e/x2590e07.htm




Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/16/16 09:17 PM.

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CMM #434634 01/16/16 09:32 PM
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Great. I can build these. The first fyke net I looked at was $500.
Thank you. I'm really curious what survived the initial stocking.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
CMM #434637 01/17/16 07:27 AM
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Another question about traps. If I'm trying to catch perch, do I need the trap to be on the bottom, or floating. I guess if I made one out of pvc I'd have a little more trouble getting it on the bottom.
I'm thinking I need a little bit bigger trap. Not necessarily a 4' x 4', but at least 2 or 3 feet wide. Might need the wings or whatever they are called to help direct fish.

Which leads to last question. Or two. If the best placement is on the bottom what depth water should I set it in? Or, should I set it up near the structures I've placed. They are in 8 to 10 foot depth, but almost come to surface. (Cedar trees, and artificial trees.)

Thanks
Jeff


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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Jeff, if you use PVC, drill some 2/16" holes in the very top of the pipe, and some near the bottom. That will allow the air inside the pipe out, and allow them to sink.

I would set traps on the bottom in 4'-8' of water. In the Spring, when the water is cooler, set them shallower, maybe 3'-6'. I would not set them where any part of the trap was below the thermocline if one sets up in your pond.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
esshup #434662 01/17/16 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: esshup
Jeff, if you use PVC, drill some 2/16" holes in the very top of the pipe, and some near the bottom. That will allow the air inside the pipe out, and allow them to sink.

I would set traps on the bottom in 4'-8' of water. In the Spring, when the water is cooler, set them shallower, maybe 3'-6'. I would not set them where any part of the trap was below the thermocline if one sets up in your pond.


Perfect, thanks! Will do. Swimming in it last summer, it was very cold down deep (greater than 10'). So I'm assuming I have a thermocline. Looking at budget, I may not get aeration in this summer..


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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That's good that you know that. This summer, if you see a thermocline set up again, try fishing deeper than the depth where it sets up. Note where you catch fish - below the thermocline or above the thermocline. That will help you determine what depth to set the trap too. Remember fish will normally swim up to take a bait, but rarely swim down more than a foot or so to take a bait.

Also below the thermocline, the O2 levels are typically reduced unless you have tremendous clarity in the water.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
CMM #434723 01/17/16 09:14 PM
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Water is not that clear. I don't think I ever had any clarity of greater than 2.5'.
I didn't know the fish were ever "below" the thermocline, until now.
I've got lots to learn about catching fish..


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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In some lakes with really, really clear water, there will be enough O2 in the water below the thermocline for cooler water fish to live. IT's a function of both temp and O2 levels.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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One cedar tree added in 5' of water and 2 artificial trees added in shallower water for yp spawning and yoy habitat. The artificial trees were done in two ways. One tree was sunk as sections; 3 sections, each about 12-16" tall and two tiers of branches. The other tree I used only the branches, I wired between 2 and 4 together and dropped them close to shore in 12" to 3' of water. I put about 3 sets of branches in a section then moved on down the shore.

I will see if I have more egg strands on the natural brush and weeds or if they like the artificial branches well enough.

I also cleaned all my fly lines so I can take advantage of the 50+ degree weather tomorrow. I haven't caught a fish yet this year.

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I am cussing the geese more than usual. Apparently, the flock that came in last night thought my artificial Christmas tree branches may be good to eat. Most of the branches have been pulled up. Grrrr.
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Another update on the yp Rainman delivered a year ago. I didn't see egg strands, I have put minnow traps out a few times with no baby YP found and I haven't seen any obviously yp in stomach contents of lm and I haven't caught any yp. The good news is that my preliminary numbers look like the lm wr are up some, but not much.

Questions: how big would yp fry be now if spawned in February or March?
Would the fry be in similar locations as bg fry of 3-4"?


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YP hatched this spring will range from 2"to7" long, most 3"-4.5" now in early Oct.


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Originally Posted By: CMM
Another update on the yp Rainman delivered a year ago. I didn't see egg strands, I have put minnow traps out a few times with no baby YP found and I haven't seen any obviously yp in stomach contents of lm and I haven't caught any yp. The good news is that my preliminary numbers look like the lm wr are up some, but not much.

Questions: how big would yp fry be now if spawned in February or March?
Would the fry be in similar locations as bg fry of 3-4"?



CMM don't be discouraged we cant catch any small perch in the minnow trap after 4 years. We can only catch them on a small hook in the spring 5-7". Made a few larger minnow traps and still can't catch any minnows. They are in there but different to trap.


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Thanks both of you. I may give the little piece of worm on a hook a try. I just bet the bg or re get to it first. I will look for egg strands again in late winter, early spring.


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If your perch are like mine, you'll catch a lot of bluegill before you catch one perch but keep trying. I always do better with perch after the water cools a bit more. I've put them all back because I don't see much recruitment. Currently trying to catch all the HBG I can because I'm sure they prey on small perch.

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Originally Posted By: CMM
Thanks both of you. I may give the little piece of worm on a hook a try. I just bet the bg or re get to it first. I will look for egg strands again in late winter, early spring.


I think you will be surprised how many strands you will have had that you don't see. I really under estimated that. Another thing I didn't expect was how well the shiners will eat the young perch fry. They have really done a job on ours to we might be getting 1000-1500 new young perch that make it to 5" per year. I get these numbers by the number of original stockers we have left and 5-1 ratio we catch them to the new young.


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I am not even close to giving up hope on the yp, but it sure is nice to hear all the encouragement. I will look for egg ribbons early spring! May even break out a worm or grub to see if I can hook one.

I am using this thread to keep my timelines straight too, and as a place to put yearly catch/cull and wr info too.

The people on this forum have done so much to help, maybe someone will get some use from something here.


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