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#393271 - 11/25/14 06:56 PM can I leave the clay banks uncovered
Flame Offline


Registered: 09/12/14
Posts: 884
Loc: Deep East Texas
Hey everyone and Happy Thanksgiving to all!!! My new 2 acre pond is starting to fill. My question is can I not plant grass on the banks?? I don't want to mow and it probably wont grow well on all clay anyway. I realize it will get muddy everytime it rains.What other pros and cons should I expect? Is it just eventually going to silt my pond back in or will it finally pack down good and quit being so muddy every time it rains? I am going to bottom airiate later. This is a lmb and bg pond. Once vegetation starts growing will it quit being muddy? I have pictures of my pond under projects section. It will be around 13 ft deep near the dam. Thanks James
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#393272 - 11/25/14 07:14 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5421
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Happy Thanksgiving right back at ya!

IMO you need to plant it. Having grown up on a farm, my experience with eroding soil is it won't stop eroding on its own. If it was my project, I would get in touch with the folks at Prairie Moon Nursery or other reputable seed company and explain the project. They can recommend a mix that will work in your soil, survive periods of high water, stay low growing and be native to your area.

Just my opinion...

Bill D.


Edited by Bill D. (11/25/14 07:18 PM)
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#393273 - 11/25/14 07:23 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
Bill Cody Online   content
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Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12109
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
IMO you should plant some sort of ground cover on the banks and water shed, even if it is a grain such as wheat, oats or spelt or hay or cheap grass seed. Grass will grow in clay if the seed bed is prepared properly. You will soon see weeds will have no problem growing in the disturbed clay soil. Often in the north we plant a quick sprouting grass or annual rye grass with the perennial grass to become established while the other grass becomes established. A grass called buffalo grass does not very tall and does not usually need mowing. TX may have appropriate grass cover species. Lack of ground cover vegetation allows excessive soil erosion which as you mentioned causes excess turbidity. Lack of shoreline emergent vegetation allows excessive of bank erosion and sloughing unless the banks are stoned or with riprap.

Turbid water due to suspended soil/silt/clay suppresses plankton blooms in about direct proportion to the amount of turbidity. Lack of plankton reduces the productivity of the pond system and results in fewer fish and often reduced overall quality of the fishery. Turbid water less than 16" visibility of secchi disk also results in fewer fish caught for anglers due to fish not being able to see the 'bait'.


Edited by Bill Cody (11/25/14 07:28 PM)
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#393277 - 11/25/14 08:10 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
FireIsHot Offline
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Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3638
Loc: Emory TX
Flame, I'd go with rye, if the temperature will allow it to germinate, then go with Bermuda for a permanent cover. Besides it's almost weed like growth, it handles most common broadleaf herbicides very well. Plus, the correct herbicides can be applied when the Bermuda is dormant, or actively growing, your pick.

Also, Bermuda can chase the waterline down if you have summer water fluctuations. When the water level hopefully returns to normal after the spring rains, shoreline aquatic weed growth can be greatly diminished because of the established turf.

As has already been mentioned, turbidity should ease with a good ground cover on both the water shed and pond structure.

IMO, Buffalo grass is harder to establish, and does not accept certain soil types as well as Bermuda. Plus,it does not like herbicides while it is actively growing. Weed control most likely has to be done while it's dormant, which restricts control of summer weeds.

Just my 2 cents.
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#393278 - 11/25/14 08:29 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
Flame Offline


Registered: 09/12/14
Posts: 884
Loc: Deep East Texas
whats to keep rye grass seed from simply washing into the pond?Will birds eat it? You mentioned temperature suitable to plant seeds. Is it already too late? When should I plant and how? I have a walk around and crank spreader. Remember this is 2 acres with a 20 ft wide road on top. Help!!
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#393279 - 11/25/14 08:38 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5421
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Whatever you plant, disk or somehow break up the ground and broadcast or drill. No deeper than 1/4 inch. If you broadcast, drag an old piece of chain link fence or similar over it once it's seeded.

The birds will get some but not enough to hurt you.

Last advice. Do your homework. You know your soil better than anyone. Pick a cover that will thrive not just survive.


Edited by Bill D. (11/25/14 09:04 PM)
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#393281 - 11/25/14 09:12 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
Bill Cody Online   content
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Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12109
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Once you get it planted go over it with a roller and it will create better seed to soil contact and improve sprouting. Three things make grass sprout grow well: water, water, water.


Edited by Bill Cody (11/25/14 09:12 PM)
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#393283 - 11/25/14 09:26 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3638
Loc: Emory TX
Originally Posted By: Flame
whats to keep rye grass seed from simply washing into the pond?Will birds eat it? You mentioned temperature suitable to plant seeds. Is it already too late? When should I plant and how? I have a walk around and crank spreader. Remember this is 2 acres with a 20 ft wide road on top. Help!!


I drag chain, just like Bill D. Surface tension is the biggest issue with seeding IMO. Even a light raking, will help retain seed, and get it off to a better start. Rye likes soil above 50 degrees to germinate, so I'd check my soil temp. If your soil's too cool for planting until spring, somebody else will need to help you with that. I've got limited experience with both erosion matting and spread hay.

If you can drive an ATV or a truck around the pond, I would invest in a hitch mount food plot spreader. They're relatively inexpensive, and you can also find them on Craig's List. There is the possibility that you might be spreading seeds and fertilizer multiple times over the next few years, and it'll really pay for itself in time alone. If you go with a hand crank spreader, I'd check with Forestry Suppliers Inc. They have some heavier duty chest spreaders. I have a Solo unit, for Navigate and Cutrine, and I love it. Much easier than the green hand spreaders at Wally World.

If you can get a good succession planting next spring, say March for Rye, and May/June for Bermuda, you'll be surprised how much turf you can have in a year.
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#393285 - 11/25/14 09:34 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3638
Loc: Emory TX
Flame, here's a pick of my brood pond dam. It is 2 years old, and no real maintenance other than spraying and mowing.

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AL

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#393287 - 11/25/14 09:39 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13169
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Flame, I would try to get something established to cut down on the soil eroding and creating gullies in the dam. It appears that we are possibly in for a cold wet winter. I would try to scratch the soil, sling wheat, rye and oats. then drag with an old piece of chain link fence. And, I would do it very soon.
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#393288 - 11/25/14 09:44 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Dave Davidson1]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5421
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Flame, I would try to get something established to cut down on the soil eroding and creating gullies in the dam. It appears that we are possibly in for a cold wet winter. I would try to scratch the soil, sling wheat, rye and oats. then drag with an old piece of chain link fence. And, I would do it very soon.


Perfect for now!!!!

Wheat can germinate in as little as 3 days


Edited by Bill D. (11/25/14 09:58 PM)
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#393289 - 11/25/14 09:47 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
Bill Cody Online   content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12109
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Dragging vs rolling each have benefits depending on texture of worked surface. You might want drag and drag then roll different portions and then when growing, report the results of the two different methods to us. Learning from your test is good for all of us.


Edited by Bill Cody (11/25/14 09:49 PM)
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#393290 - 11/25/14 10:21 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Bill Cody]
Pat Williamson Offline


Registered: 08/08/14
Posts: 2141
Loc: Oakwood,Texas
Flame

I have the same problem over in buffalo large areas of bald red clay exposed. My biggest problem is the dam area that erodes faster than I can fix. I planted Bermuda grass this spring and it finally came up and took off like crazy when it finally did rain. Still got ruts now with grass in them. Can fill over time and grass will grow through it . Since I'm still 6' low on water the clay will eventually be under water . My dam is 450' long so it is hard to get all that covered in grass . Rye was good at first until Bermuda comes up in mid spring to early summer. If we had 2 weeks warm weather oats and rye seed might come up till u can put out Bermuda in spring

Pat W

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#393296 - 11/26/14 07:16 AM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
Flame Offline


Registered: 09/12/14
Posts: 884
Loc: Deep East Texas
I think our local high school has a mesch "square" they drag around on the dirt infield of the baseball field. Would that work? I have a electric golf cart. Do you think that would pull it? I can go buy seed today. We are a small town of only 800 people and the school would probably help. I think our Dixie league baseball has some primitive grounds maintenance equipt. also. I suppose you can buy seed at the feed store. Am I right? How does it cover and how expencive is it? I have no way to water it so will just have to wait for rain.
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Dear Alcohol, We had a deal where you would make me funnier, smarter, and a better dancer... I saw the video... We need to talk.

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#393297 - 11/26/14 07:30 AM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
stickem' Offline


Registered: 08/10/14
Posts: 954
Loc: S.E. Texas, Polk Co.
Flame,
We drug a 4' x 6' piece of cattle panel behind a four wheeler to cover the seed. I had some 6"x6" timbers nailed to the front and rear of the panel for weight. As DD1 mentioned in a previous post, scratch the clay surface with a disk lightly before you broadcast.
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#393302 - 11/26/14 09:01 AM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5421
Loc: Boone County Illinois
James,

Most places that sell seed can also provide seeding rates. I grew up in a small town and the feed and grain store is where we always got our seed. Keep in mind if you are planting wheat, rye and oats that you only need enough of each to cover 1/3 of the area. Unless you want to do this twice, I would go ahead and plant whatever grass you will be using as permanent cover at the same time. If conditions are not right this fall for germination, it will lie dormant and sprout in the spring. The wheat and oats are annuals and will die out. The rye will survive if you use a perennial variety.
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#393303 - 11/26/14 09:04 AM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Bill D.]
jludwig Offline


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1401
Loc: Central Kansas
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
James,

Most places that sell seed can also provide seeding rates. I grew up in a small town and the feed and grain store is where we always got our seed. Keep in mind if you are planting wheat, rye and oats that you only need enough of each to cover 1/3 of the area. Unless you want to do this twice, I would go ahead and plant whatever grass you will be using as permanent cover at the same time. If conditions are not right this fall for germination, it will lie dormant and sprout in the spring. The wheat and oats are annuals and will die out. The rye will survive if you use a perennial variety.


I would overseed by quite a bit with being this late in the year. It may help get a better coverage.

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#393308 - 11/26/14 09:24 AM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
Flame Offline


Registered: 09/12/14
Posts: 884
Loc: Deep East Texas
Our local feed store sells a rye grass seed called gulf annual for 30 dollars for 50 lbs. He says 20-40 pounds per acre. Would this do until spring when I can plant Bermuda? I want to run down there this morning as soon as I hear back from you guys. Thanks
_________________________
Dear Alcohol, We had a deal where you would make me funnier, smarter, and a better dancer... I saw the video... We need to talk.

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#393309 - 11/26/14 09:31 AM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5421
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Gulf annual, also known as winter rye should work. It is not going to stay short though. It gets 3 to 4 feet tall. If you don't plant the bermuda at the same time, you may have to remove/mow it before you can plant anything else in the spring.
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#393310 - 11/26/14 09:40 AM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
jludwig Offline


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1401
Loc: Central Kansas
It would stay fairly short until the spring time. Just be ready to mow it short or spray it in February/March before it grows too tall.

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#393311 - 11/26/14 09:48 AM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
Flame Offline


Registered: 09/12/14
Posts: 884
Loc: Deep East Texas
Thank you everyone!! When will gulf rye die or will it continue on. If it is a annual I assume it wont hold up to hot weather?
_________________________
Dear Alcohol, We had a deal where you would make me funnier, smarter, and a better dancer... I saw the video... We need to talk.

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#393312 - 11/26/14 09:54 AM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5421
Loc: Boone County Illinois
I would guess in your area probably mid summer. If left alone to head out, it may re-seed itself and come back next year.
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#393313 - 11/26/14 09:58 AM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Bill D.]
jludwig Offline


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1401
Loc: Central Kansas
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I would guess in your area probably mid summer. If left alone to head out, it may re-seed itself and come back next year.


There would be likely volunteer plants if it headed out. Usually rye is harvested in June/July.

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#393318 - 11/26/14 12:05 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: jludwig]
Pat Williamson Offline


Registered: 08/08/14
Posts: 2141
Loc: Oakwood,Texas
Flame there is a difference between rye and rye grass. grass rye will survive till late summer but the root system hangs in there longer keeping the erosion down . My Bermuda grass didn't really get going good til early summer.


Pat W

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#393319 - 11/26/14 12:27 PM Re: can I leave the clay banks uncovered [Re: Flame]
jludwig Offline


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1401
Loc: Central Kansas
Get a small pump and use a sprinkler to water the dam in the early spring to get the best Bermuda coverage. It takes significantly more water when it is 85 F or hotter.

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