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In thinking about wild deer herd management, a landowner only as so much ability. At the state and county level, some states, like Indiana, have gone to a one buck rule and liberal doe permits to copy states that have successfully increased their trophy take. One can argue about why it works, but not about if it works. To get more trophies, bucks need to reach maturity, and smaller bucks must get out-competed with mates. Some hunters may also pass on those easy shots at stupid young bucks in the hopes of bagging a larger one later. I shot a lot of small deer in my first 10 years of hunting, but have switched to being more selective over the last ten years as the challenge of taking smaller animals has lessened. Ultimately, state wildlife biologists, not a popular vote, set the hunting regulations, and I am good with that.

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Great point Tony. Since I'm not a deer breeder I am part of the problem instead of the solution. But, that further assumes that I am trying to manipulate the deer population. I'm not and really can't. These suckers are wild animals.

In Texas, we are legally allowed to take 2 does, one spike(at least one unbranched antler)and one buck with a minimum of 13 inch wide rack. The 13 inch rack law is an effort by TPWD to keep hunters from shooting younger bucks. That makes sense because everyone was a buck hunter and the goal was to kill anything with antlers. If you were a hunter, you killed male deer of any type and size only. BTW, that one unbranched antler could/can be the result of the antler being broken off in a fight. On my land, if the unbroken antler clearly shows that it had a superior rack, that buck gets a pass. We have quite a few bucks that, due to genetics, will never be legal to kill. Although we eat everything that we kill, we don't kill everything that we could eat.

The 2 does part comes from TPWD trying to reduce the number of deer that compete for forage. However, the does that we eliminate from the herd might also carry the genes that we desire. We will never know about that part. At one time, most of Texas had way too many deer for the forage base. That was the result of being precluded by law from shooting does. At that time we could shoot 2 male deer of any kind but no does. So, a lot of the state wound up with a bunch of runty, skinny, undersized deer about the size of a large dog. That has changed for the better in those areas.

However, in my area, we had what the State called too many deer but they were still very healthy. I rarely even saw a spike. We had herds of good sized does that came out into the wheat in front of my house at all hours of the day. They weren't hunted so had no fear and the doe herds averaged about 20 animals. We loved it and they sometimes bedded in our front yard. Then the law changed and the deer became mostly nocturnal. No more sitting on the front porch with a pitcher of margaritas and watching the deer herd. I think, again, in my area we fixed a problem that didn't exist.

The wild card is that we have been under drought conditions since then that would have affected the deer numbers, health and body size.

That same drought has also affected other wildlife. Quail are gone. Armadillos, possums and foxes were everywhere and now, although we never molested them, seeing them is rare. It does not seem to have bothered the coons. All of those things get a pass on my place because I don't believe in using wildlife for target practice.

We now have feral hogs that the media and TPWD calls a serious problem. There is no closed season on them and we are encouraged to shoot every one that we see. I have hogs but really haven't seen that they are a problem. They have muddied up a couple of small water holes but that's no big deal. They are nocturnal so we rarely see or hunt them. If someone wants to shoot one while deer hunting, it's OK with me as long as they eat it.

BTW, this got a lot longer than I intended.


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If anyone hasn't seen it, the current issue of Field & Stream devotes a lot of pages to deer hunting. I haven't read the mag in its entirety yet, but T. Edward Nickens has a great piece on butchering a deer for food. It fits in well with this thread, and resonates with me personally also.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
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Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Great point Tony. Since I'm not a deer breeder I am part of the problem instead of the solution. But, that further assumes that I am trying to manipulate the deer population. I'm not and really can't. These suckers are wild animals.

In Texas, we are legally allowed to take 2 does, one spike(at least one unbranched antler)and one buck with a minimum of 13 inch wide rack. The 13 inch rack law is an effort by TPWD to keep hunters from shooting younger bucks. That makes sense because everyone was a buck hunter and the goal was to kill anything with antlers. If you were a hunter, you killed male deer of any type and size only. BTW, that one unbranched antler could/can be the result of the antler being broken off in a fight. On my land, if the unbroken antler clearly shows that it had a superior rack, that buck gets a pass. We have quite a few bucks that, due to genetics, will never be legal to kill. Although we eat everything that we kill, we don't kill everything that we could eat.

The 2 does part comes from TPWD trying to reduce the number of deer that compete for forage. However, the does that we eliminate from the herd might also carry the genes that we desire. We will never know about that part. At one time, most of Texas had way too many deer for the forage base. That was the result of being precluded by law from shooting does. At that time we could shoot 2 male deer of any kind but no does. So, a lot of the state wound up with a bunch of runty, skinny, undersized deer about the size of a large dog. That has changed for the better in those areas.

However, in my area, we had what the State called too many deer but they were still very healthy. I rarely even saw a spike. We had herds of good sized does that came out into the wheat in front of my house at all hours of the day. They weren't hunted so had no fear and the doe herds averaged about 20 animals. We loved it and they sometimes bedded in our front yard. Then the law changed and the deer became mostly nocturnal. No more sitting on the front porch with a pitcher of margaritas and watching the deer herd. I think, again, in my area we fixed a problem that didn't exist.

The wild card is that we have been under drought conditions since then that would have affected the deer numbers, health and body size.

That same drought has also affected other wildlife. Quail are gone. Armadillos, possums and foxes were everywhere and now, although we never molested them, seeing them is rare. It does not seem to have bothered the coons. All of those things get a pass on my place because I don't believe in using wildlife for target practice.

We now have feral hogs that the media and TPWD calls a serious problem. There is no closed season on them and we are encouraged to shoot every one that we see. I have hogs but really haven't seen that they are a problem. They have muddied up a couple of small water holes but that's no big deal. They are nocturnal so we rarely see or hunt them. If someone wants to shoot one while deer hunting, it's OK with me as long as they eat it.

BTW, this got a lot longer than I intended.

Dave, you and I and others know that we have prolific deer hunting in Texas because of deer hunters.
If not for licence fees paid by hunters and income generated by purchases from every thing from guns and ammo to feed feed and seed purchases and all the other stuff bought from by big box stores, we wouldn't have any deer to hunt.

We had no deer in East Texas after WWII, as well as other areas until TP&W stocked Hill Country deer.

As you know, deer hunting generates lots of benefits to our Texas economy.
George



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Originally Posted By: george1

Dave, you and I and others know that we have prolific deer hunting in Texas because of deer hunters.
If not for licence fees paid by hunters and income generated by purchases from every thing from guns and ammo to feed feed and seed purchases and all the other stuff bought from by big box stores, we wouldn't have any deer to hunt.

We had no deer in East Texas after WWII, as well as other areas until TP&W stocked Hill Country deer.

As you know, deer hunting generates lots of benefits to our Texas economy.
George


My grandfather talks about how the deer, sunfish, SMB, river otters, mink, bobcats, etc. etc. were all scarce in the 40's because he and thousands like him had to harvest them all to eat or sell for fur in the 30's. No one really paid much attention to limits or tags and revenuers were run off by feisty locals.

The Missouri Department of Conservation has done amazing things since then. We now have world-class SMB fisheries, (too many) deer, and our neighbor's kid traps otters every winter. We have seen mink tracks on the muskrat runs. There's a bobcat that lives down by the creek. Hunting and fishing licenses (and their enforcement) help support all of this.

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Dave D1

My place is in Freestone county and they are still alittle backwards thinking on does. The 13" rule is in effect and has worked . Problem is we can't take any does other than bow season. You know how crafty they are to hunt with a bow! We are run over with does.Sometimes up to 20 to 1 does to buck. By not allowing does the meat hunters are killing way to many bucks outside the law. Parts of Texas allows does and some don't. We try to manage our herd but as said earlier you can only do so much.the state can mandate rules but the landowner has to follow up on it to work properly.


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That is great strategy to increase the herd size and reduce trophy bucks. Glad Indiana has followed other states where trophy takes are steadily increasing.

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I see where our local state park will be closed a few days this season in an effort to try and reduce the deer population. They seem to have no problem finding folks willing to try and fill the freezer, there's always more participants than there are slots available. Meat hunting appears to be alive and well down here, as I don't imagine there are too many trophies in that herd.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Dave D1

My place is in Freestone county and they are still alittle backwards thinking on does. The 13" rule is in effect and has worked . Problem is we can't take any does other than bow season. You know how crafty they are to hunt with a bow! We are run over with does.Sometimels up to 20 to 1 does to buck. By not allowing does the meat hunters are killing way to many bucks outside the law. Parts of Texas allows does and some don't. We try to manage our herd but as said earlier you can only do so much.the state can mandate rules but the landowner has to follow up on it to work properly.
Pat W

Hi Pat, our place in Freestone County, near the small community of Dew, is only a few miles from you.
My sons are avid deer hunters and have formed a TP&W conservation area with neighbors. They have to keep records as to how many bucks taken, how many does observed, numbers of hunters, etc.
As a result of prior year survey, a number of doe permits will be issued.
That and the 13 inch rule has helped immensely - only one "trophy" buck has been taken the past two years - none taken so far this year. Does are taken by youngsters or for meat at end of season.

You might want to check with TP&W about this program?
George



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Maybe there's a ridiculously simple answer and I'm showing my ignorance by even asking the question, but how do you know the buck has a legal spread before you kill it? Thirteen inches??


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Because of my past post, I want to be clear. A doe or buck of any age is a great trophy for a beginning bow hunter. Sportsmen and sportswomen just typically keep pushing themselves to be more accomplished at their sport. Depending on your geography and local situation, the goals may vary widely. BTW - I want to add my voice to the the praise of the civil discussion that can occur on this site. I don't think that Bambi came up once!

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George1
We are going to try that but most landowners around us are to greedy to even care what is legal and what isn't . Basically like has been said before kill it before your neighbors can. Very sad. I've called the GW on one that has killed at least3 bucks at the minimum ( have seen them) two of which are illegal. Going to work with the state to try to educate these pine knots and get a handle on this mess if possible.

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Sparkplg
The state says that when the buck is looking at you the antlers should be outside the ears. It's not perfect but is a guide. Problem is getting the buck to look your way so you can tell if it is wide enough. It changes the way you have to hunt.


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Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Sparkplg
The state says that when the buck is looking at you the antlers should be outside the ears. It's not perfect but is a guide. Problem is getting the buck to look your way so you can tell if it is wide enough. It changes the way you have to hunt.


Pat W


Huh. Wouldn't have thought of that. What's the penalty for killing one that doesn't measure up?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Sprkplug
Not sure probably at descresion of warden. You will be shot at dawn with a small caliber rifle! Lol

Blatant violations can be loss of license, guns, equipment, and replacement cost of deer.


Pat W

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Tony, after awhile you kinda get used to judging width. Like Pat says, the rule of thumb, as quoted in the TPWD Hunting and Fishing Guide, involves the width of the ears when fully extended. But that can be iffy. If you're not sure, don't shoot. I have seen some bucks that are big, older, healthy and have large racks. However, since they go almost straight up instead of out, they will never be legal to shoot.

These days, the GW's discretion is usually to write a ticket.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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DD1

We got a few of those, one we call Tall Boy that goes straight up and not out. The system isn't perfect but it is a start. Education in judging age should be the next step in the process. It's not that hard if you know what you are looking for. Also being able to harvest does will take some heat off of younger bucks


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I think it is also important to be able to judge age. That is a work in progress for me. I'm getting better but can still be error prone. One of the Kids that hunts my land shot a spike last year. It had a wedge shaped head, short spikes and was a runt. One look and I knew it wasn't a young deer. After it was in the ice chest, it weighed 36 pounds. When we pulled the lower jaw bone to age it, we figured it was 7.5 years old and just about at the end of the trail. I'm glad it is out of the gene pool. It was with a couple of younger bucks, about 2.5 yoa, that are probably going to be good deer someday and was chasing them away from the feeder. It wouldn't have gotten away with that aggressiveness with older bucks or does. I have seen other spikes with that deers genes. They have been younger but I know we don't see them all.

To learn to age deer, go to the Texas Hunting Forum. They do this all the time.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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In the latest issue of PB magazine, Bob Lusk talks about the importance of genetics, and the need to evaluate/cull specimens as individuals rather than lumping them together under a particular size umbrella.

Certainly he was talking fish, not deer, but in light of this last week's conversation his thoughts appear at least somewhat relevant, if not downright timely, regarding the discussion.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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BANG BAMBI !!!!! Might as well nuke a whale or two while we're at it.


Do nature a favor, spay/neuter your pets and any weird friends or relatives.
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And this was so civil!


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Pat, that was civil and very conservative. I am a very compassionate and considerate guy. Ask Dr Condello.


Do nature a favor, spay/neuter your pets and any weird friends or relatives.
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Bob O all in good fun on serious topics



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Indeed


Do nature a favor, spay/neuter your pets and any weird friends or relatives.
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Here is my 2014 deer. I have very few days to hunt this year with work and the kids hockey chewing up most of my time. I took opening day off and started out hunting first thing in the am seeing a big 5x5 half a mile from home but couldn't get a shot off. I moved to the other end of the 1/4 section at noon to see if I could rattle the 5x5 in but this guy showed up and I shot him at 100yds with my rifle. We have lost 70% of our deer population from the last 2 harsh winters so I was pretty pleased. ://[/img] The roads were closed on the second day of hunting due to freezing rain so work was canceled and I took the wife rattling for her whitetail. We called this guy in to 150yds and she made the prefect shot with her rifle to finish off our 2014 season. /[/img]


"I think I have a nibble" Homer Simpson

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