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#391762 - 11/05/14 10:00 PM Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Having about half the watershed running into my main 3 acre pond from corn/soybean farm land, adding a sediment pond has been a good addition. All of the agriculture runoff water comes through this sediment pond. It keeps some of the sediment and nutrients from going directly into the main pond, giving time for at least some of it to settle out in this sediment pond.

This thread is going to be backwards from most construction threads. I did not start a thread for this sediment pond when the construction started, so instead you will see the finished results and then the thread will go backwards to show how it was built.

So this first set of pictures is of the completed pond. Have not measured it accurately but guessing to to be about a tenth of an acre and about 8' max depth. It is too big for me to clean out with my backhoe, but decided instead to make it as big and deep as practical so maybe will not need to clean it out for many years.

Edit: later in this thread I built a pre-sediment pond ahead of this pond that is small enough to be cleaned out with our backhoe. It catches the biggest part of the sediment first.



Attachments
013.JPG (979 downloads)
Description: Sediment pond. Water entrance from field terrace lower right of picture

015.JPG (787 downloads)
Description: Full pool, notice difference of color of water between sediment and main pond.

041.JPG (636 downloads)
Description: Water enters far end

018.JPG (581 downloads)
Description: water coming into main pond via overflow pipe. UTV setting in bottom of emergency overflow

001.JPG (660 downloads)
Description: earlier picture when first filled with ag land in background




Edited by snrub (06/01/17 03:05 PM)
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#391764 - 11/05/14 10:22 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Added a single 9" diffuser for aeration and several pallets for FHM reproduction.

I tried best as possible to make the overflow pipe high enough so fish could not swim from the main pond back up into the sediment pond. This will allow me to use the sediment pond as a forage pond. At least for a while. The problem is, the pond being so near the top of the hill I could only get a differential in height from the main pond at full pool of less than a foot.

I used a 6" overflow pipe from the sediment pond to the main pond. During large rain events this is not near enough. But by using a fairly small pipe it allowed me to keep the outlet higher than the full pool level of the main pond so fish would not swim back up. But in large rain events when the pipe is running full bore and sediment pond two inches above it, the emergency overflow will become the main source of overflow flow. This is by design and have already had rain events where the 12' wide emergency overflow was utilized. Will not claim this was the best solution, but it is what I came up with.

Eventually there will be a big enough rain event so the main pond is a foot above full pool and the sediment is flowing full bore and fish will be able to swim from the main pond back into the sediment pond. So it can never be kept a pure forage pond. But it will function as one till such a rain event happens. It could be next week, could be five years from now. Kansas weather. The ponds were just too close to the same elevation to do anything different.


Attachments
001.JPG (490 downloads)
Description: FHM spawning pallet in foreground, diffuser float in middle of sediment pond


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#391765 - 11/05/14 10:28 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Some pictures of trenching in the air line for the aeration diffuser.

Supposed to have the air line go all down hill from pump with no low spots. Yeah good luck with that.


Attachments
004.JPG (523 downloads)
Description: oldest grandson learning to run the trencher

005.JPG (455 downloads)
006.JPG (557 downloads)
Description: home made diffuser base


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#391766 - 11/05/14 10:37 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Making of the diffuser base.

FHM have been in the pond (trapped and added from my forage pond) since it first had water.

Around now 175 1-3" RES and 100 CNGB from Dunn's fish farm were added. Going to see how the CNBG get along this far north compared to my northern BG. I just like RES and maybe some day can actually learn to catch them. Would be nice.


Attachments
006.JPG (574 downloads)
Description: Precision concrete casting. Notice high tech alignment tools for lifting device. You will not find this quality control in mass produced products

003.JPG (526 downloads)
Description: Perfection...... well close enough for a redneck

004.JPG (426 downloads)
Description: forms off

005.JPG (468 downloads)
Description: Quality control check - it actually screws in! Hooray!

015.JPG (454 downloads)
Description: Temporary air pump housing

007.JPG (591 downloads)
Description: Additional patent pending FHM spawning structure. It will be pending for a long, long time.




Edited by snrub (11/05/14 10:50 PM)
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#391767 - 11/05/14 10:47 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Earlier pictures of mid construction stage. Notice difference in color of water in sediment pond and main pond behind it.


Attachments
001.JPG (508 downloads)
Description: Black stuff at inlet to pond is composted cow manure to help get an algae bloom.

006.JPG (427 downloads)
007.JPG (384 downloads)
008.JPG (419 downloads)
Description: notice overflow pipe and emergency overflow beside it (low spot in road/dam


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#391770 - 11/05/14 11:00 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Digging the hole. This is the fun part. I did a good share of it but one employee helped put in some hours as my back gives out after long hours on the tractor. I took these pics as he ran the machine.

Dirt pile got considerably higher and wider from the last pic by the time I finished the next day.


Attachments
001.JPG (465 downloads)
002.JPG (367 downloads)
003.JPG (406 downloads)
Description: since it is a completely dug pond, have a lot of dirt. And not a lot of place to go with it for the time being.

004.JPG (362 downloads)
006.JPG (385 downloads)
Description: heavy rain in forecast. However deep we get it before the rain is how deep it will be. Solid clay.

016.JPG (384 downloads)
027.JPG (427 downloads)
Description: these kind of things makes my wife nervous


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#391772 - 11/05/14 11:20 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Putting in the overflow pipe.

Would have liked to put in a lot bigger pipe. Could have and probably should have put in multiple small pipes.

But the problem with the large pipe was, I still had to put an emergency overflow about 8" above the bottom (full pool) of the overflow pipe. So the largest pipe of any value would have been an 8" (which is what I should have used in retrospect)(edit: that is an 8" pipe. I don't know what I was thinking when I posted itm as a 6"). The reason is, if I did not allow for large flow at that level, we would back water back out into the ag field, pond it up, and break over the top of the terrace. The overflow has to carry the flow of the terrace, slowed down by a double culvert that passes under a farm road at the top of the hill. Even at the levels I've set the pipe and emergency we still back some water temporarily in the field. But we have it about right so it only stands for about an hour at most and maybe half an acre. Acceptable to me to gain the benefits of maximum available water capacity and full pool height of the sediment pond. Just one of the compromises I had to make with the pond being nearly at the top of the hill.

Concrete on each end, and a couple of concrete anti-seep collars in the middle.

No one in their right mind would hire me to do concrete work. Yet I see stuff my dad mixed up 50 years ago by hand still pretty solid made of portland cement and chat (chirt from lead/zink mine tailings - not the best aggregate because of acid content). I actually used some of his old slabs that came from around the old barn at the exit of the emergency overflow to keep it from eroding the bank as the water fell into the pond. This concrete is mixed with a 3pt tractor mixer. It will be around longer than I will.

I usually sucker my oldest grandson Bret to do the shoveling stuff into the mixer. He is a pretty stout lad. He helped with all of this.


Attachments
036.JPG (461 downloads)
Description: Overflow pipe from sediment pond to main pond

038.JPG (392 downloads)
029.JPG (462 downloads)
Description: concrete anti seep collar using trencher to make slot

030.JPG (392 downloads)
031.JPG (392 downloads)
Description: anti-seep completed

043.JPG (397 downloads)
Description: nobody in their right mind would hire me to pour concrete. Redneck man sand, a little larger rock, and Portland cement

048.JPG (414 downloads)
Description: sometimes I just need a diversion




Edited by snrub (12/12/17 10:57 PM)
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#391777 - 11/06/14 12:47 AM do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Do sediment ponds ahead of a main pond help?

You be the judge.

first pic sediment pond water
Second pic main pond water
third pic the two for comparison

There was a lot of flow through during this rain event because it rained several inches. Plus the adjacent field had been freshly tilled in preparation of sowing winter wheat. So the main pond is showing some turbidity from the rain.

The sediment pond has been clearing up after a couple days where it gets almost as clear as the main pond. Not completely, but almost.


Attachments
011.JPG (516 downloads)
Description: sediment pond water about a day after rain with runoff

006.JPG (443 downloads)
Description: main pond water with sediment pond in background

015.JPG (482 downloads)
Description: two ponds for comparison




Edited by snrub (11/07/14 12:47 AM)
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#393382 - 11/26/14 11:25 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Added a Pre-sediment pond to the sediment pond. Had room in the terrace channel coming into the sediment pond to make an approximate 40'long by 20' wide by 5-6' deep mini-mini-mini pond.

This one is small enough I can easily clean it out with the backhoe as needed. It should catch the largest dirt particles and any corn shucks or debris that comes of the agriculture field right next to it. Ag field is in the background in the first picture.

Water comes from the field via a terrace, through a double culvert that has a road over the top, and dumps directly into this very small pond. It then exits this pond and runs over about 30' of the original terrace channel (which is rocked and is part of a 4-wheeler road) into the sediment pond. Then ultimately the water goes from the sediment pond into the main pond.

Pictures are poor. It snowed before I thought of taking some. Will get better pictures when it fills with water.

The clay piled to the left in the first picture (to the right in second picture) will eventually be moved out and used elsewhere.

May throw a few FHM in it next spring just for kicks.


Attachments
016.JPG (410 downloads)
Description: Water enters through the double culvert at top of picture

017.JPG (436 downloads)
Description: Water exits at top of picture into the sediment pond across about 30' of rock which is also a road

018.JPG (408 downloads)
Description: after sediments settle out in the two sediment pond, water ultimately ends up in main 3 acre pond




Edited by snrub (11/26/14 11:42 PM)
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#393387 - 11/27/14 06:27 AM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
RAH Offline
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Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4073
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
If they hold water year-round, you could add FHM to keep some coming into the big pond.

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#393459 - 11/28/14 12:13 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: RAH]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Yes, I think I'll do that RAH.

It should keep water in it. Since this is the first stop for the water from the terrace it will get recharged very quickly with any small amount of runoff from a rain event. Evaporation may make the level drop but I seriously doubt it will ever go completely dry. Maybe low enough and poor water quality that FHM might be the only thing that survives year round. Not to mention the potential of freezing solid in the winter.

My guess is, during a large rain event, minnows and even BG will swim against the current and be in this pond (more like a big puddle actually) anyway. Likely they will have die offs, on and off because of various factors, but I would expect it not to stay devoid of fish for long periods.

I'll throw some FHM in occasionally anyway just for the heck of it. As long as the water is good, like you said, it should provide some minnows for down stream, as they get flushed through during larger rain events. During a big rain event the two culverts flow full flow and water even backs up into the field against the culverts about a quarter acre. So a lot of water will flow through this area once, twice or even more during a typical year.

It will hold water. Solid yellow clay like they make bricks out of at Acme Brick about 5 miles west of us. It sets basically at the peak of a hill, with only the terrace channel being low enough for water to pass over the hill (through the culverts), diverted from the farm field to the east. We needed this terrace to provide adequate watershed for the main pond, so it was built right after the main pond was built.

One problem with making this pond as well as the bigger sediment pond and mini forage pond is that they rob water from my main pond. I have a pretty limited watershed to keep the ponds full to begin with. So all this additional surface acreage (less than .2 total though) is water caught before it enters the main pond. So in a drought, any rain event just enough to have a little run off but not much, fills these small ponds first and keeps it out of the main pond. We will never have a problem with the ponds filling, as we are in a high rainfall area of the state with some occasional very large rainfall events. But we also have some extended very hot, dry periods. So during those times these small ponds may cause the water level in the main pond to go lower than it otherwise would. I built the ponds this spring and we had a really dry year where the main pond got to about 2' low. This included the initial fill of the small ponds robbing water from the main pond, so I hope this last year is as bad as it ever will get.

Things are in good shape now, water wise.


Edited by snrub (11/28/14 12:31 PM)
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#393460 - 11/28/14 12:31 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio
It may rob water to your big ponds in droughts, but I think it has benefits even during those times. Around here, with our soil types, during a drought it gets that fine dust/powder everywhere as the ground gets disturbed/ground up. Then it rains, and you get a serious amount of sediments flushed over the ground. Now you will capture it.

By the way, nice progress reports.

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#393461 - 11/28/14 12:35 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
Rainman Offline
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Snrub, you could always cut a trench a few feet wide and a couple feet below the overflow height. Then back fill it with pea gravel. That would filter the sediments and maintain the level with your main pond. The overflow would allow FHM to be pulled into the main pond in high water events also
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#393463 - 11/28/14 01:16 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: Rainman]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Good idea, but right now I get maximum depths from the pre-sediment pond and the sediment pond by keeping the full pool levels at higher elevations. That actually might work pretty good between the pre-sediment and the sediment because there is only a few inches difference in full pool elevations.

The sediment pond is close to a foot above the main pond when both are at full pool, and until we have a rain event large enough (will take a really big one, maybe once every 5 years) where fingerling bass can swim against current and end up in the sediment pond, I can use it for other forage purposes. If I made it where water would leak through to the main pond it would lower the level about a foot and make it not nearly as nice around the bank. It would actually likely work better for sediment purposes that way, as it would always have an extra foot of "surge" capacity and give that much water additional time to "settle" out. But I kind of like the idea of being able to use it as a forage pond till it gets contaminated with LMB. Right now I have 100 CNBG and 175 fingerling RES in there as well as FHM's.

I guess your idea still would not preclude me from doing the same thing. Would just lower the static full pool water level because it would seek the same level as the main pond. Hmmmmm. Will have to give that some more thought.

Don't know if I explained it well enough for any of the above to make sense.

Thanks for the idea. That is one of the things so cool about this forum. Lots of ideas we are exposed to we might not otherwise have thought of.


Edited by snrub (11/28/14 01:17 PM)
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#393493 - 11/29/14 10:52 AM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
rmedgar Offline
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Good job. Enjoyed reading about that adventure...
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#393494 - 11/29/14 11:46 AM Anyone who has made a sediment pond or ponds [Re: rmedgar]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Thanks rmedgar.

I am requesting anyone who has made a sediment pond and has a thread about it here on PBF to post here on this thread with a link to their old thread. Or in the future if you decide to make a sediment pond and write a thread about doing it and this thread has been helpful in that event, come back here and post a link to your new sediment pond.

There are several old threads that I read about sediment ponds that were instrumental in encouraging me to make one for my pond. I thank those PBF'ers for creating those threads. I can't find them right off hand, but as I do will create links to them. One person I remember had several sediment ponds in series to clean up the runoff into his main pond. His thread was one of the main ones that encouraged me to make the pond in this thread.

By linking these similar projects together, when someone finds a topic that interests them and they want to know more, the links to other similar projects will be there for them. Find one thread on the subject, finds several.

So anyone with a sediment pond thread, I invite you to provide a link to your thread on your project.

couple better pictures of the pre-sediment pond.


Attachments
001.JPG (382 downloads)
Description: looking at where the water enters the pond through the culverts

002.JPG (371 downloads)
Description: looking at where the water exits the pre-sediment pond and enters the sediment pond




Edited by snrub (11/29/14 11:53 AM)
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#393508 - 11/29/14 03:54 PM Re: Anyone who has made a sediment pond or ponds [Re: snrub]
george1 Offline
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Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 3794
Loc: Plano Texas
Originally Posted By: snrub
Thanks rmedgar.

I am requesting anyone who has made a sediment pond and has a thread about it here on PBF to post here on this thread with a link to their old thread. Or in the future if you decide to make a sediment pond and write a thread about doing it and this thread has been helpful in that event, come back here and post a link to your new sediment pond.
..............................................................

So anyone with a sediment pond thread, I invite you to provide a link to your thread on your project.


Snrub, I don’t recall if I posted a thread in 2006 about my “sediment” pond or not, but I do have a photo journal if that will be of any interest?
I really didn't intend to do anything except cat tail removal but out pond builder thought otherwise. grin















As of now our little puddle has become a stagnant pool when water in main pond recedes from drought.



I have pulled the trigger on a Kasco 12 volt Emergency Surface Aerator - I could not achieve this goal without HighFlyer contribution who will rig up all the solar components for our “prototype system.

http://www.kascomarine.com/products/aerators/12v-emergency-aerator/

George Glazener
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Original george #173 (22 June 2002)





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#393512 - 11/29/14 06:47 PM Re: Anyone who has made a sediment pond or ponds [Re: george1]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
How big do you think it is George? Maybe a quarter acre?
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#393513 - 11/29/14 07:23 PM Re: Anyone who has made a sediment pond or ponds [Re: snrub]
george1 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 3794
Loc: Plano Texas
Originally Posted By: snrub
How big do you think it is George? Maybe a quarter acre?

Tenth of an acre snrub...per Google....
G/
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#393517 - 11/29/14 08:14 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=375883#Post375883

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post381091

Catmandoo had a really good thread with a wetlands project, but it was along time ago (2010?). I remember reading it but now any references I came across to it said the page would not load. frown

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#393566 - 11/30/14 04:15 PM Re: Anyone who has made a sediment pond or ponds [Re: george1]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: george1
Originally Posted By: snrub
How big do you think it is George? Maybe a quarter acre?

Tenth of an acre snrub...per Google....
G/


Looks bigger than that. That is about the same size as my sediment pond.
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#393567 - 11/30/14 04:24 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: fish n chips]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: fish n chips


Catmandoo had a really good thread with a wetlands project, but it was along time ago (2010?). I remember reading it but now any references I came across to it said the page would not load. frown



One thing I have struggled with is how best to post pictures. Most use a hosting site and I actually have one of those. But I usually just upload my pictures to this sites server. The downsides of that is the picture has to be clicked on to see it and it also takes up server space on the host so if a lot of people do it that way might cost more to host the site. (I don't mind donating to help with that cost). Lots more efficient for PBF if the pictures are stored off site. But back when I was reading a lot of the old posts (need to do some more of that - lots of interesting stuff) I often came across very interesting threads where the person posting the pictures quit using the host site for the pictures, so the pics were gone. Could not see any of the old pictures. So that is the down side of using a separate site to host the pictures. If I don't keep up with the site used to host the pictures (or they go defunct), all will be lost access to PBF pictures for the threads.
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#393570 - 11/30/14 04:56 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Here is an oldie from 2006.

Keyway on sediment basin
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#393597 - 11/30/14 07:59 PM Re: Anyone who has made a sediment pond or ponds [Re: snrub]
george1 Offline
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Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 3794
Loc: Plano Texas
Originally Posted By: snrub
Originally Posted By: george1
Originally Posted By: snrub
How big do you think it is George? Maybe a quarter acre?

Tenth of an acre snrub...per Google....
G/


Looks bigger than that. That is about the same size as my sediment pond.

snrub, maybe this Google Earth image will help put little sediment pond in perspective for you?

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#397719 - 01/15/15 04:52 PM Re: Anyone who has made a sediment pond or ponds [Re: george1]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Yes it does.

I'm anxious for the satellite image to be updated for my property so I can get a fresh picture of my sediment and forage ponds.

I find it interesting that you left a big cut between the ponds so they are joined together. I took steps so mine are separated. During average rainfall events water flows into my sediment pond, then exits into the main pond via a overflow tube. But with big rain events with a lot of runoff, only a portion will go through the tube and most over the emergency overflow.

I tried to make the water enter in a way that it has to slow down and turn a couple times before exiting, hoping to give time for more sediment to fall out of suspension.

I can see it will cause me to manage the ponds separately, but at the same time give me the opportunity to use the sediment pond as a forage or grow out pond for the main pond. Pro's and Con's.

If I ever want them together (maybe I no longer want to expend the energy to manage the small pond) a backhoe and a small bridge for the 4-wheeler will solve the problem pretty quickly. wink


Edited by snrub (01/15/15 05:40 PM)
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#397723 - 01/15/15 05:27 PM Re: Anyone who has made a sediment pond or ponds [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Here is one of the main threads that finalized my decision to create a sediment pond. I read this thread and then for the life of me could not find it again. I thought it was a much older thread and that is why I kept missing it.

Paul Thomann thread from March 2014 Pond color is too grean

I started my forage pond not too long after that, then my sediment pond later that summer. The above is a really neat and extensive way of managing sediment and water flow into and around his pond.

I would like to say that Catmandoo was my inspiration, but his property is much too beautiful and picturesque for me to ever imagine my sediment pond looking any thing like his. My flat Kansas farm land ain't never gonna look that good. His best pictures are here , but here is a thread where he shows some winter pictures of the same sediment ponds:
Stopping silt from runoff Bout 3/4 the way down the page.

FireIsHot was my original inspiration getting me interested in small ponds and was one of the main threads that caused me to "go for it" with originally a forage pond, then later the above sediment pond. His problem with excess water causing LMB to get into his forage pond helped me to hopefully avoid the same problem. FireIsHot forage pond thread

I would be completely remiss if I did not mention highflyer's Topias (although I'm still a little miffed that he did not name his last one Snrubtopia grin ). They surely had a lot to do as far as encouragement for me to try my hand at small ponds supplementing my main pond. But I'll have to say I did not fully appreciate them till I saw them in person at Highflyer's 2014 PBF get together . They look so small in the pictures compared to his big, beautiful lake. But in person seeing them I saw the potential and his enthusiasm for small pond management. If Hyflyer has another PBF get together some day, for sure go if you can. The world famous Topia's

I know I'm forgetting others that were also inspiration that caused me to delve into small ponds including the above sediment pond. Thanks to all. It's been and continues to be fun. And what's life good for if you can't have a little fun along the way! grin laugh


Edited by snrub (01/15/15 07:41 PM)
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#397726 - 01/15/15 06:02 PM Re: Anyone who has made a sediment pond or ponds [Re: snrub]
fishm_n Offline


Registered: 05/18/11
Posts: 732
Loc: Sturgis, SD
Good reads
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#397748 - 01/15/15 09:59 PM Re: Anyone who has made a sediment pond or ponds [Re: snrub]
Rainman Offline
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The way snrup is posting research links lately, we may have to call him Lil ewest soon! grin
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#397751 - 01/15/15 10:03 PM Re: Anyone who has made a sediment pond or ponds [Re: Rainman]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5580
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Originally Posted By: Rainman
The way snrup is posting research links lately, we may have to call him Lil ewest soon! grin


Yep. I see a new PBF moderator in the making. Darn shame. He seems like a nice guy! grin
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#397788 - 01/16/15 01:36 PM Re: Anyone who has made a sediment pond or ponds [Re: Bill D.]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: Rainman
The way snrup is posting research links lately, we may have to call him Lil ewest soon! grin


Yep. I see a new PBF moderator in the making. Darn shame. He seems like a nice guy! grin


Don't think there is any chance of either one of those things ever happening! Best I can do is barely try to hang onto the coat tails of the great knowledgeable ones!
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#403576 - 03/12/15 11:25 PM CNBG or RES? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
This is one of the fish stocked in my sediment pond late last summer (1-3" with most being around 2")

It should be either a CNBG or a RES (only thing stocked in addition to FHM). The ear tab has not developed so their is any color to it.

Which is it?

Caught today on a tiny #18 jig head with a pinch of Slim Jim sausage. Trying to catch a few to see how they were doing. This one 4 3/8". Did not catch any others. Yesterday the main pond had lots of fish activity with a sunny day and 55 water temp. Caught a few small 5-6" BG and a 13.5 LMB. But today overcast with rain prediction tomorrow and not much biting.

So RES or CNBG? I'm guessing CNBG because I've always seen at least some orange or red on the opercular tab on any RES of that size. Have seen a few small BG before with no coloration on the tab.


Attachments
017.JPG (277 downloads)
Description: CNBG or RES?????




Edited by snrub (03/12/15 11:41 PM)
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#403577 - 03/12/15 11:29 PM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: snrub]
Pat Williamson Online   content


Registered: 08/08/14
Posts: 2316
Loc: Oakwood,Texas
I would say CNBG also, mine looked like that until the water cleared up some bringing out the color

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#403578 - 03/12/15 11:35 PM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: Pat Williamson]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
This sediment pond has a good algae bloom with maybe only 18". So it is not clear at all.

Totally different from my main pond right now which I can see at least 5'. Threw a white cattle salt block in 4-5' of water off the dock and can see it plain as day. FA coming on like gangbusters. Ordered some Cutrine Plus.

Both mini forage pond and this sediment pond have a good planktonic algae bloom.



Edited by snrub (03/12/15 11:39 PM)
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#408195 - 04/17/15 12:29 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: snrub]
FishinRod Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 113
Loc: Central Kansas
snrub,

A few years back, I was looking at a project similar to your pond, where the watershed would be carrying in a large silt load. My wife, said my only chance in hell of investing that much money was if she would have a "beautiful" lake.

My business went a little south before I made enough money to buy that land, but I sure did a lot of planning! I did plan a sediment settling pond much like yours.

My only design modification was to use a gravel-filled gabion basket for the water interchange between the settling pond and the main pond. I was going to put geo-fabric on the bottom and the "downstream" sidewall, and then fill it with the recommended size of gravel.

This system should allow a slow exchange of water from the settling pond to the main pond, but no exchange of fish or fry if you did want to try to manage the forage pond.

It has the added advantage of doubling as an emergency spillway for that 100-year rain event. If you had 2' of freeboard, and installed the top edge of a 20' long gabion basket 1' above normal pool, then you would have 20 square feet of outflow (equal to a 42" pipe).

If you had it perfectly level, it would go from a gushing waterfall to a trickle fairly quickly as your run-off water crested. Hopefully, there would only be a very short window for adventurous LMB to swim upstream.

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#408196 - 04/17/15 12:39 AM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
One thing about adding a sediment or forage pond that lacks top line predators is that frogs and resulting tadpoles have few things trying to eat them so they flourish. Here are some night time pictures around the sediment and the tiny pre-sediment pond. The pre-sediment pond had lots of what I think are peeper toads. They were sure loud. Only saw one pair around the sediment pond and none around the main 3 acre pond or the 1 acre old pond. But for some reason this fairly new excavation (last fall) they really took a liking to. Lots of pairs and love was in the air. The one in the first picture was not so lucky though. The next to last picture a pair was getting lucky.

Edit: confirmed it was a Diamondback water snake. Not poison and harmless although purportedly can get aggressive when they are big. See them around the pond somewhat regular during the summer.


Attachments
008.JPG (296 downloads)
Description: Diamondback water snake (??) eating peeper toad (??)

017.JPG (326 downloads)
019.JPG (261 downloads)
021.JPG (282 downloads)
024.JPG (272 downloads)
003.JPG (310 downloads)



Edited by snrub (03/26/18 09:50 PM)
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#408198 - 04/17/15 12:49 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: FishinRod]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Really good idea FishinRod.

One problem I have in this situation is that the sediment pond full pool level is only about 9 inches above the main pond full pool level. Then the tiny pre-sediment pond ahead of it that I dug last fall is only a few inches above the sediment pond and it at full pool is right at the bottom of a culvert that is at the exact top of the hill (culvert brings water in from a farm field terrace and the culvert is there because a farm road passes over it).

So I was working with really tight elevation differences. Had my pond full pool level not been so close to the top of the hill where this terrace water runs in, I could have done things differently and probably a lot better. But I think it works pretty well as is, compared to having nothing like I had before I built it.

Thanks for the comment.


Edited by snrub (04/17/15 12:51 AM)
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#408206 - 04/17/15 05:24 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: snrub]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13364
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Dang frog should have kept his mouth shut.
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#408219 - 04/17/15 07:53 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: snrub]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5580
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Snrub,

I am seriously considering adding a sediment pond to each of the two swales bringing water to the main pond. What do you think about the idea of connecting the sediment pond to the main pond by simply building a ditch and filling it with rip rap instead of using an overflow pipe?

What would you do differently it you were going to start over with your project today?

Bill D.
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#408238 - 04/17/15 08:59 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2290
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
snrub, the shape of the head of the snake, looks like he is a poisonous snake? I don't like those roaming around @ night on my pond. But I do like your sediment pond.

Tracy
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Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
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#408241 - 04/17/15 09:18 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: snrub]
basslover Offline


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 545
Loc: USA
Tracy -

You can tell from the round pupils that is not a venomous snake. In the USA the only venomous snake with round pupils is the coral snake, and we can see this is not a coral snake.

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#408245 - 04/17/15 10:04 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2290
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
basslover, I let a lot of the snakes on my place just slither away, I am not a snake hater but when I first looked at snrubs picture, the shape of the head looked triangular and that is the first thing I look for when seeing a snake I am not familiar with. I never looked @ the eyes and usually don't plan on getting close enough to look into their eyes lol

Tracy
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

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#408246 - 04/17/15 10:24 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1768
Loc: West Michigan
snrub, remind us again the utility of the salt block in the pond? I bought water softener salt last night and saw the salt block there and I thought I remembered someone on the forum discussing the idea of putting a salt block in the pond.

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#408253 - 04/17/15 10:57 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: TGW1]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
I noticed the head shape in the picture also but it is because the snake has it's jaw unlocked trying to swallow the frog. I see these snakes occasionally around the pond but mostly in the seasonal creek behind the pond catching stuff in the pools of water. Having that stream right behind the dam I see a lot of different critters like snakes and turtles coming and going between BOW's.
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#408254 - 04/17/15 11:05 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: canyoncreek]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
snrub, remind us again the utility of the salt block in the pond? I bought water softener salt last night and saw the salt block there and I thought I remembered someone on the forum discussing the idea of putting a salt block in the pond.


Probably no utility whatsoever. It was just a whim. In the ocean scuba diving I see certain species of fish "flash" on various things like sponges presumably to rid parasites. I wondered if BG would be attracted to or otherwise utilize the salt block. As far as I could observe from my dock, no. After a week the block either disappeared under the FA or dissolved. I could no longer see it. Thanks for reminding me to report my findings.
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#408256 - 04/17/15 11:15 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: snrub]
edit7279 Offline


Registered: 03/04/15
Posts: 124
Loc: Dallas & Clarksville, Texas
snrub, looking at the triangular head, I'm gonna go with poisonous snake.

Coloring on the snake looks a lot like the ones we were talking about in this discussion:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=404888&page=1

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#408257 - 04/17/15 11:17 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: Bill D.]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Snrub,

I am seriously considering adding a sediment pond to each of the two swales bringing water to the main pond. What do you think about the idea of connecting the sediment pond to the main pond by simply building a ditch and filling it with rip rap instead of using an overflow pipe?

What would you do differently it you were going to start over with your project today?

Bill D.


Don't see why the ditch would not work well, although eventually the rock will fill in with sediment.

My use of the pipe was mostly the result of my small differential in pond elevations and a way of slowing down the water entering the main pond during average rain events. During really big rain events most of the water goes over the 12' wide emergency spillway. Had I more elevation or horizontal distance to work with, no doubt things would have been done different. Very important to remember I'm no engineer. Just a farmer with 40+ year experience working with water flow in field terraces and waterways along with a bulldozer and too much time on my hands. Stuff I do is done redneck farmer style, not professionally.


Edited by snrub (04/17/15 11:18 AM)
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#408258 - 04/17/15 11:26 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: snrub]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5580
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Originally Posted By: snrub
Very important to remember I'm no engineer. Just a farmer with 40+ year experience working with water flow in field terraces and waterways along with a bulldozer and too much time on my hands. Stuff I do is done redneck farmer style, not professionally.


LOL I grew up on a small farm in Indiana. Redneck farmer style is the only way I know to do things as well!
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#408259 - 04/17/15 11:32 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: edit7279]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: edit7279
snrub, looking at the triangular head, I'm gonna go with poisonous snake.

Coloring on the snake looks a lot like the ones we were talking about in this discussion:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=404888&page=1


I read that thread as it was posted.

You might be right but I don't think so. A year or so ago I had the same concerns and as I recall my research resulted in calling the snakes diamondback water snakes. At any rate I think the chance of getting bitten would be slim to none. Saw this same snake on the other side of this tiny pre-sediment pond 20 minutes later stalking another frog. I tried to get close to get a picture of the capture but the snake would have nothing of it. Dove deep into the water and away it went. I could only get so close before because it had the frog locked in its mouth trying get to swallow it. I've never seen these snakes very big. This one under 3'.

Also the head does not look triangular when they are not swallowing something. I'll look more closely when I run across another one though. Thanks for the concern.


Edited by snrub (04/17/15 11:39 AM)
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#408260 - 04/17/15 11:41 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Here is a reference.

Diamondback water snake shows Kansas range

Google search and pictures


Edited by snrub (04/17/15 11:45 AM)
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#408351 - 04/18/15 07:55 AM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2290
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
snrub, I am sure u know your land and your critters. Me, in my part of the country, if I see a short 3 footer and that triangular head and he is eating my frogs, he most likely be a dead snake. I want frogs and not short triangular shaped headed snakes lol

Tracy
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#408497 - 04/19/15 04:49 PM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: TGW1]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
laugh laugh

I can't say as I blame you for that at all. I thought after words I might should have been rid of him because he was eating my frogs.

Then I seen this last night and now frogs are not so high on my preference list either! cry laugh grin

All just part of the natural rhythm I guess. cool smile



Attachments
012.JPG (327 downloads)
Description: Bullfrog with FHM in mouth and tail of fish hanging out.




Edited by snrub (04/19/15 04:50 PM)
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#408526 - 04/19/15 10:05 PM Re: CNBG or RES? [Re: FishinRod]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: FishinRod
snrub,

I did plan a sediment settling pond much like yours.

My only design modification was to use a gravel-filled gabion basket for the water interchange between the settling pond and the main pond. I was going to put geo-fabric on the bottom and the "downstream" sidewall, and then fill it with the recommended size of gravel.

This system should allow a slow exchange of water from the settling pond to the main pond, but no exchange of fish or fry if you did want to try to manage the forage pond.

It has the added advantage of doubling as an emergency spillway for that 100-year rain event. If you had 2' of freeboard, and installed the top edge of a 20' long gabion basket 1' above normal pool, then you would have 20 square feet of outflow (equal to a 42" pipe).

If you had it perfectly level, it would go from a gushing waterfall to a trickle fairly quickly as your run-off water crested. Hopefully, there would only be a very short window for adventurous LMB to swim upstream.


As FireIsHot found out with his forage (now grow out) pond, it takes only a short window for LMB to go "upstream" and get where they are not supposed to be.

I took some updated pictures today that shows the elevation (or actually lack thereof) challenge I was facing. It has rained recently and all 4 ponds were right at full pool with maybe a quarter inch of water depth flowing in all the overflows. Ponds are as picture perfect as they are ever going to be as far as all being full at the same time.

I'll post the pictures in order so that a person can best get the lay of the land. In the first picture, the shed on the right that is closest to the center, the tiny pre-sediment pond is just to the right of that shed and behind that pile of dirt (that eventually will be removed). As a person follows through the picture sequence, keep the right hand end of that shed in mind as a reference point (right hand of that shed is to the south, left end is to the north).

I think this series of pictures will show how little elevation difference I had to work with to make the sediment pond. The reference shed is right on the peak of the hill, as is the culverts pictured in the pre-sediment pond picture. Main 3 acre pond is in the foreground, forage pond to the left, sediment pond in front of the reference shed, and pre-sediment pond to the right (south) of the shed.

The very last picture is looking back the opposite direction from the pre-sediment pond (looking down hill towards the main pond).

These pictures show the relationship of the ponds a lot better than some of the earlier ones at varying water levels.



Attachments
016.JPG (314 downloads)
Description: Main pond in foreground, forage pond to the right of the small pump house, sediment pond to the right of that

017.JPG (263 downloads)
Description: forage pond in foreground, sediment pond behind it and in front of the shed

021.JPG (255 downloads)
Description: sediment pond in foreground, pre-sediment behind.

024.JPG (324 downloads)
022.JPG (271 downloads)
Description: tiny pre-sediment pond

027.JPG (293 downloads)
Description: view looking back the opposite way towards house




Edited by snrub (04/19/15 10:15 PM)
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#413878 - 06/03/15 09:37 AM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
This is a picture of one of several RES I have caught recently out of the sediment pond being used as a forage pond for FHM and brood pond for RES. As I catch these larger ones, I transfer them to the main pond to add to the RES population there.

Stocked 175 RES along with 100 CNBG last fall and this is the size the RES are this spring. Also catch and transfer some of the CNBG (my main pond was stocked with northern BG so adding these for diversity - they are called CNBG by Dunns fish farm - what pedigree they actually are I do not know). The CNBG are the size of the RES in the picture and some up to 6". They seemed to have grown a little faster than the RES. Original stocking size last fall 1-2"


Attachments
001.JPG (286 downloads)

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#419552 - 07/26/15 02:35 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
A sample RES caught out of the sediment pond within the last week.

I had also caught 4 larger RES out of my main pond and put in this sediment pond last fall. They must have had a late spawn because have been trapping a few 2" RES in minnow traps. Later this fall hope to seine the shallow end and maybe transfer a bunch of CNBG and RES over to the main pond.


Attachments
IMGA1490.JPG (268 downloads)
Description: RES stocked last fall


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#419554 - 07/26/15 02:46 PM tannin [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
When I built the sediment pond the main purpose was to filter out sediment before it reached the main pond. A secondary purpose was as a forage/grow out pond.

One thing I had not anticipated was for the sediment pond to catch tannin from the farm field and keep part of it out of the main pond. We had a wheat crop in the adjacent field. It was no-till planted to double crop soybeans. We have had a very wet season. The first planting of beans did not come up because of heavy rains. This rain stood in the field for a while in the ridges made by the planter in the bottom of the terrace. Then another rain came along. The first rain had stood in with the wheat stubble long enough to create a brown tannin stained water. The second rain washed it into the pre-sediment pond and then into the sediment pond. A little reached the main pond but not much. The tiny pre-sediment pond is a very brown stained water and the sediment pond less so but still a very noticeable stain.

We had put some blue and also white tilapia in both the pre-sediment and sediment ponds to grow out. They seem to be doing fine in both ponds along with the other fish. But the water sure is stained looking. I put some crushed limestone which has a significant amount of ag lime in it along one bank to help neutralize some of the acid content, which is shown in the picture.


Attachments
IMGA1496.JPG (279 downloads)
Description: tannin stained water in pre-sediment pond


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#419571 - 07/26/15 08:37 PM Re: tannin [Re: snrub]
tubguy Offline


Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 135
Loc: Southern Indiana
I also have stained water due to tannins.My pond was just finished in May and our contractor seeded an area approximately 50' wide with wheat,rye,and fescue 31 around the waterline.Our ground is classified as highly erodible be our county ag extension office.I thought the staining may have came from a cedar thicket along one side of the pond but it sounds like the wheat and rye may be a large contributor to the staining.Snrub, how wide of a filter strip or buffer strip do you maintain between your fields and your ponds? I have heard recommendations around here anywhere from 60' to 200' depending on soil type and conditions such as slope and type of vegetation.

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#419573 - 07/26/15 09:35 PM Re: tannin [Re: tubguy]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
I had to build a terrace to bring in water from the farm field to have an adequate watershed for the size pond I was building (3 acres). So essentially for this portion of the watershed that ends up in the pond there was zero buffer. The water from the field terrace goes through a culvert originally directly into the main pond. Now it goes first to a mini pre-sediment pond (maybe 20' x 40' x 6' deep), then into the sediment pond (about 1/10th acre x 8' deep), then overflows from the sediment pond into the main pond.

So previously I had essentially no buffer, now I have two small ponds the water passes through before it gets to the main pond.

Normally tannin is not an issue from the field. Mostly sediment when we have heavy rains after tillage and sometimes nutrients. This just happened to be a situation where we had dead wheat straw at a time of unusual rainfall. We usually are begging for a rain at that time of year so I do not expect tannin to be a regular problem.


Edited by snrub (07/26/15 09:43 PM)
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#419578 - 07/26/15 10:13 PM Re: tannin [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Been sampling the recruitment from the sediment pond and my forage pond. Not getting anything other than FHM from the forage pond (also should have RES reproducing), but the sediment pond is going gangbusters with reproduction.

RES and CNBG in the sediment pond. Been moving what I trap over to the main pond. Figure there will be lots I don't catch that will grow up to a bigger size and can seine and move them probably next year.

I think I'm getting about 10% RES and the rest mostly CNBG. Kind of hard for me to tell with the fish so small. But occasionally I get a fish that looks distinctively different and sometimes (on the larger size fish) can see a small orange spot on the margin of the opercular tab. Also get an occasional either GSF or a hybrid with GSF in it. So some how either there was contamination within the fish stocked, of a GSF or three snuck into the pond somehow.

Funny, there are lots of FHM in this pond, but am getting very few in the minnow traps. Mostly the small sunfish. I have found that if I bait the trap and check it 10-15 minutes later I get the most fish. When I let it sit over night, will be a few in there, but they mostly find their way back out. I caught and transferred probably a few hundred fish today with three minnow traps and checking them several times throughout the day.

Minnow traps work good to see how your YOY sunfish are doing.

Edit: the food pictured in the traps is dog food. It is large enough in size it stays in the trap. Fish food drops right through the mesh in the trap, thus the reason I'm using dog food for an attractant.


Attachments
IMGA1501.JPG (249 downloads)
Description: recruits caught in a minnow trap

IMGA1503.JPG (262 downloads)
IMGA1506.JPG (298 downloads)
Description: individual fish picture

IMGA1510.JPG (261 downloads)
Description: another trap full

IMGA1511.JPG (245 downloads)



Edited by snrub (07/26/15 10:17 PM)
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#419593 - 07/27/15 08:11 AM Re: tannin [Re: snrub]
tubguy Offline


Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 135
Loc: Southern Indiana
I presently only have FHM and GSH in my pond and they seem to be doing fine in the tannin stained water.My PH was 7.2 in June before reaching full pool.Went swimming with my wife and boys yesterday and fry were everywhere in the water less than 3ft.It kinda felt like we were swimming in a minnow bucket.

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#419599 - 07/27/15 11:46 AM Re: tannin [Re: snrub]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
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Try panty hose. The pellets becomes mush.
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#419620 - 07/27/15 04:29 PM Re: tannin [Re: Dave Davidson1]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
No panty hose for me Dave. I'm a crew sock kind of guy.

Oh, you were talking about putting the fish food in it................. never mind.
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#419635 - 07/27/15 06:06 PM Re: tannin [Re: snrub]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
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Well, go get your Wife to buy you a pair. Or, if it bothers you, buy them by mail order. One pair lasts about a year of cutting them off and tying the ends.

Or, I found a pair of mesh anklets in my Wifes sock drawer. They are a perfect size and you only have to tie off one end. And, if it bothers you, they fit nicely in your pocket.
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#419639 - 07/27/15 06:28 PM Re: tannin [Re: Dave Davidson1]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Yeah, just be sure your wife knows it is her panty hose in your pocket when she finds it when she washes.

I can see all sorts of problems arising from female undergarments from unknown origins found in my pocket. eek

But hey, if I tell her it is all for the benefit of the fish, she will understand............. yep. laugh
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#430255 - 11/28/15 12:54 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Pulled 19 Tilapia out of this sediment pond night before last. Largest 1# 9 oz. All blues except one smaller white. Most in the pound and a quarter to pound and a half range.

We had bought 300 small (1-2") mixed Tilapia (blue and white)in late spring (when water temps were high enough for them to survive) and put a bunch in this sediment pond (no predators in this pond yet). Noticed them moving very slow near the surface about dark so went out after dark with a light and with a dip net (and a couple with cast net) and harvested a total of 19. Ended up with between 5 and 6 pounds total meat.

The fish had got cold and were about to die. In fact I found one near dead that I tossed so actually a total of 20.

Went out last night but did not find any more. Had lots of rain so the water is a lot more turbid so either they have died or just could not see them. May try again today and tonight. Saw a couple large ones in the main pond but the water in it was warmer so they were still too active for me to capture them. Soon as the light hit them they went down.

Adding these Tilapia was kind of just a lark. I knew they would never get big enough or reproduce soon enough to help with any FA problem in the pond. But I wanted to get some experience and just see what they would do. They sure did grow fast.

Interesting thing, throughout the summer the whites were definitely the most visible. Being white they were much easier to spot feeding on pellets. Then when looking closely there would be the blues also, but much harder to spot. Yet now all we are getting are the blues. So either the whites have already died and sunk to the bottom (seen none floating or on the banks) or they have went deeper or something. According to the place we bought them from the whites are supposed to have similar cold tolerance as the blues.

We have had a bunch of cold rain with the main pond at emergency overflow level and a severe temperature drop yesterday, so if I'm going to get to harvest any more blues or see anything of the whites, it will be soon or never. I had kind of forgot about them when they quit coming up for feed a week or two ago. Will at least get a chance to see what they taste like.



Edited by snrub (11/28/15 01:04 PM)
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#430270 - 11/28/15 05:05 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
John Fitzgerald Online   content


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1893
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
We finished a sediment/forage pond this past week, just in time for this long, soaking rain. Being above and to the side of the main pond, it increased the watershed area by probably 50%. There is a pic in my thread about a minnow pond. I pumped it full before the rain to avoid erosion in the basin as much as possible.
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#430278 - 11/28/15 08:33 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: John Fitzgerald]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Good luck with your sediment pond. I'm having a lot of fun with mine raising forage fish till some LMB swim up the overflow and get in there. So far that has not happened, but will eventually.
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#430286 - 11/28/15 10:13 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
John Fitzgerald Online   content


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1893
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
My forage/sediment pond is small enough I could pump it dry in two to three hours with a 2" gasoline pump. I can easily get rid of any predators that way, then re-fill.
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#430287 - 11/28/15 10:13 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Picture of the largest Tilapia and the fillets from it.


Attachments
Tilapia 11-2015 small.jpg (295 downloads)
Tilapia fillets small.jpg (272 downloads)

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#430314 - 11/29/15 04:23 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
CMM Offline


Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 603
Loc: West Central MO
Originally Posted By: snrub
Picture of the largest Tilapia and the fillets from it.


I see the fork in the background is all ready to go once the fillets are done! Cmm
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#430334 - 11/29/15 09:24 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: CMM]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Had first batch tonight. Wife coated it then baked. Very mild fish. Falls apart easily though. I like it a lot.

Wish I could have figured out how to harvest more of them.
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#430347 - 11/30/15 08:24 AM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1768
Loc: West Michigan
+1 on that! Very nice tilapia! I had a few nice ones a bit smaller that were floating in the chilly water last week. There has to be some good minds on the forum that can teach us how to catch more of these!

I had a thought... tell me if I'm crazy? They seem to know where it is warm as I see them in the shallows on the warm side of the pond trying to bask in the sun when the water is chilly.

If one located a big IPC tote (275 gallons) and set it in the shallows with the top just barely above water. And then devised some type of narrow entrance to get in like a minnow trap has. Then if one put a heat source in the tank to keep the tank water warm would they find their way in? Obviously if the fish can get in, some of the warm water would flow out too but if the majority of the tank kept warmer than the outside pond water would they not stay in the warm water where you can net them out?

You could may have a tunnel with some right angles that they could swim through that would help keep the warm water from flowing out too quickly?

Tilapia filets always are on the menu with me smile

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#430354 - 11/30/15 09:09 AM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2290
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
I have been looking every day for some floaters or some I might scoop up with a net but my surface water temp has been 60 to 61 but maybe the last day or so it has cooled down some more. The Water Turkeys have been talking to each other about my slow moving Tp. My water turkey numbers have grown from 1 to 5 in the last few days. Dam Birds
frown
Tracy
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#430376 - 11/30/15 12:09 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: canyoncreek]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Canyoncreek, you might be on to something with the artificially heated "refuge area".

I nominate you to build one, try it out, and report back to us on how it works. grin

Esshup has talked about how they will go to shallow water that the sun has warmed where he has snagged them.

Where most of the ones I captured are in a 1/10th acre sediment pond, have thought about just going out with the cast net and trying to canvass the bottom (basically trying pot luck). That is the pond where we mostly saw the white tilapia feeding this summer (and that I have retrieved only one of the whites) and the pond is small enough I might just get lucky.

Think I will go out and try that right now! Mostly stopped raining............finally.


Edited by snrub (11/30/15 12:10 PM)
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#430377 - 11/30/15 12:14 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
Bocomo Offline


Registered: 05/06/12
Posts: 1123
Loc: Boone County, MO (pond)
Tilapia make great fish tacos!
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#430481 - 12/01/15 10:30 AM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2290
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
E. Texas Casting Net Report. I went out yesterday to throw a cast net for Tp. I was hoping the Tp were floating in or around the surface. The surface water temp a few days ago was 60 and after receiving a 4" rain with the weather temps in the low 40's, I hoped the water temp in the pond had cooled to the point I would see a few floaters but the surface water temp was at 59 and no floaters were seen. I made a trip around the pond using my floating pier with an attached trolling motor. This is a great platform for throwing a cast net. I caught some small 2 to 3" Tp. Looks like I will have to wait on the water temps to cool some more. And snrub, after seeing your report on the Tp fillet's, I was looking forward to some of those nice fillets you have pictured.

Tracy
_________________________
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Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
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#430495 - 12/01/15 01:16 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: TGW1]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
I did go out and cast probably about 15 times in the 1/10th acre sediment pond. Not a single tilapia.

Got nothing near shore so fish in general are definitely going deeper (or at least they are staying away from shore). Got a few CNBG and RES each cast out towards middle of this small rectangular shaped pond. Moved them to the main pond.

What I don't know is if they are already dead or not, especially the whites. I may have actually got most of the blues (I do know of a couple we missed that night). Funny thing is, I'm around the pond every day and have seen no dead fish on the banks. Did have a GBH frequent this pond daily for a couple weeks a few weeks back but surely he could not have got all of them.

Supposed to be warm(er) and sunny this week. Hope they will come up to the shallows near shore and maybe will get a chance at some more. Will keep watching.
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#430511 - 12/01/15 03:31 PM Re: Adding a sediment pond to an existing pond [Re: snrub]
Bill Cody Offline
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When the water temps drop below 55F-60F tilapia become hard to catch due to the cold temperatures are significantly reducing their need for food. As water temps drop below 55F tilapia become increasing more difficult to catch due to them becoming even more sluggish and increased stress from cold water. I try to do all my tilapia angling harvest before the water drops to 62-65F.


Edited by Bill Cody (12/01/15 03:35 PM)
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#446472 - 05/05/16 11:04 AM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: snrub
Added a Pre-sediment pond to the sediment pond. Had room in the terrace channel coming into the sediment pond to make an approximate 40'long by 20' wide by 5-6' deep mini-mini-mini pond.

This one is small enough I can easily clean it out with the backhoe as needed. It should catch the largest dirt particles and any corn shucks or debris that comes of the agriculture field right next to it. Ag field is in the background in the first picture.

Water comes from the field via a terrace, through a double culvert that has a road over the top, and dumps directly into this very small pond. It then exits this pond and runs over about 30' of the original terrace channel (which is rocked and is part of a 4-wheeler road) into the sediment pond. Then ultimately the water goes from the sediment pond into the main pond.

Pictures are poor. It snowed before I thought of taking some. Will get better pictures when it fills with water.

The clay piled to the left in the first picture (to the right in second picture) will eventually be moved out and used elsewhere.

May throw a few FHM in it next spring just for kicks.


Wanted to add an observation to this thread. Last year I had added a few 4" RES to this pre-sediment pond and many many small 2" BG had swam upstream into it during numerous rain events (only time water flows) from the sediment pond and had grown to 3" or so. Lots of FHM too. I could observe them from the bank and trapped lots of them to put in the main pond.

An interesting thing happened. We had a reasonably large rain event that caused lots of flow through on this tiny pond (which is expected). I found a couple of dead 5" RES after the water subsided and no small BG to be found and only a small population of mid size FHM. Either most of the fish washed down stream into the sediment pond or died.

Previously high water flows have caused small fish to swim upstream and populate this pond. This time something else happened. I don't have a definative answer as to what happened or why, but somw possibilities.

First, the runoff of the corn field came very fast. There was probably at least a ten times full volume water exchange in this pond within a time period of a few hours (this pre-sediment pond is only about 40' long by 20' wide by 6' deep). It was a cold rain following unusually warm weather and warm water.

One thought is that extreme temp and/or Ph change got to the fish and killed them. Or at least some of the larger ones and the smaller ones stressed and washed into the sediment pond (it is about 1/10th of an acre). The other possibility is the field had been sprayed with a corn herbicide a few days earlier so herbicide runoff could have also possibly stressed the fish. Water went from clear/green with a nice algae bloom to muddy in a short time (the very reason this pre-sediment pond was built to be the first line of defense from runoff from this field - so it is doing its job). Or a combination of stress factors.

Loosing the fish is not a big deal. The tiny pond is to catch sediment before it reaches the sediment pond or main pond. I just thought it interesting observation of what happened after this small pond had been so fertile in small fish numbers and now it is almost without fish. The water is starting to clear up. I'm sure with another rain small fish will again migrate up to it and repopulate it. Probably for this same thing to happen all over again at some future date.

Tiny ponds with hugh flow through have some special chalenges.



Edited by snrub (05/05/16 11:12 AM)
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#446474 - 05/05/16 11:36 AM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1768
Loc: West Michigan
Bill, do you have success angling for tilapia? What works for you?

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#446566 - 05/06/16 10:46 AM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
Bill Cody Offline
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Best way I have found to catch tilapia is to routinely keep feeding them at least minimally after they are stocked even if it is cat or dog food, but fish pellets are preferred. Then in late summer or early fall as soon as the water reaches 70-65F use artificial pellets on a small hook when feeding the tilapia. I like Stubby Steve lure/bait pellets.
https://www.stubbysteve.com/
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#446573 - 05/06/16 12:31 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio
In addition to what BC said; I started using some of the optimal fish food last year. It has more of a worm look to it. Since then, I can catch my tilapia more easily with a small crawler cut into short pieces, or with redworms. It seems with the optimal, they get more conditioned to eating other things that look like it.

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#446593 - 05/06/16 03:02 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1768
Loc: West Michigan
GREAT ADVICE FnC and BC, I will do the same, condition with optimal, feed in the same area of the pond, try small worms, or even small rubber worms of the same color as the optimal, or try optimal in a small nylon netting. smile smile

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#446637 - 05/07/16 07:35 AM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2290
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
snrub, I recently built a sediment pond to reduce the sand that comes through the wash (I dammed up). Reducing the sand that will go to the big pond. We have had two large rain events in the last 30 days and I have noticed a fish reduction in the sediment pond after these events of large water flows. I am not sure why I saw a reduction of FHM's and I have not seen any of the cnbg I added to this little pond.
I am now thinking, as u said, tiny ponds with hugh flows may be a special challenge, during the spring and fall rains we see here. But I am not giving up smile I should be able to raise a lot of fhm's when we stop getting these 9 to 13 " rains

Tracy
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

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#446648 - 05/07/16 01:29 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: TGW1]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Thanks for the added info on tiny sediment ponds.

I noticed as I fed yesterday evening that now the water has a huge algae bloom.

Went to muddy and almost fishless right after the rain, to clearing up to now bright green. Probably algae using fertility from the washed in sediment I would presume.

Be interesting to watch what happens over time. Think I will not add any fish back and just see what nature provides. See what fish swim back into it in subsequent rains and see how the remaining FHM population does.

I'm glad I built both the sediment pond and this tiny pre-sediment pond. Between the two of them it sure traps a lot of the muddy water and keeps it out of the main pond. During a big rain event the overflow from the sediment pond into the main pond will still have some sediment and add a little tiny amount of muddy look to the main pond, but nothing like what the two sediment ponds look like.

They are doing their job of extending the life of the main pond.

Plus the sediment pond is doing a secondary task of growing some forage fish. John F and his wife came up and visited our pond setup yesterday and he and I fished maybe 20 or so 3-5" CNBG out of it and threw them over into the main pond populated with northern BG and I did another 40 or so later that day (along with one RES). So although the pre-sediment pond may have a fish kill or at least fish loss, the sediment pond is still producing forage fish.
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#446658 - 05/07/16 06:22 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
John Fitzgerald Online   content


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1893
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Did you catch them on the chartreuse grubs?
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#446660 - 05/07/16 07:27 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: John Fitzgerald]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
I used the Crappie bites but I think they would have bit on anything. Had one on three out of four casts, around sundown.
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#446683 - 05/07/16 11:48 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Used both the grubs and Crappie bites tonight. About same response to both, but have to replace the bites nearly every fish caught and the grubs I can catch 5 or 6 fish before they are gone.

Caught 35 CNBG, 4 HBG and one GSF out tonight and transferred all but the GSF to the big pond. GSF was full of eggs and figured I had enough GSF influence already so it got destroyed. All in about an hour. Biggest CNBG was 6.5". Nothing big but fun.
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#446685 - 05/08/16 12:22 AM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
John Fitzgerald Online   content


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1893
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Sounds like a great time. Btw, Cabela's has the Gulp Alive chartreuse grubs in stock again. I picked up an extra jar of them while waiting for the 5 pm traffic to clear Friday. I49 is a mess.
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#449899 - 06/17/16 12:01 AM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: John Fitzgerald]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
I've had some in my Amnazon shopping basket for several days but have yet to finish the order. Bought some pink Gulp Alive maggots at WMart and they work as well catching fish, but only last one or two fish. They seem to be made of a softer foam and the fish get them off easier.

Here is a picture of a RES and a CNBG out of this sediment pond. The third is a northern BG from my main pond.

Been moving every CNBG I catch from the sediment pond (fishing and trapping) over to the main pond. Leaving the largest RES as brood stock in the sediment pond. Hopefully by reducing the CNBG biomass the RES will have the upper hand on reproduction.


Attachments
IMGA1666.JPG (277 downloads)
Description: RES from sediment pond

IMGA1665.JPG (267 downloads)
Description: CNBG from sediment pond

IMGA1669.JPG (279 downloads)
Description: regular northern BG from main pond




Edited by snrub (06/17/16 12:04 AM)
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#454953 - 08/28/16 05:44 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
An update to this sediment pond thread.

Do to the lay of this land and this sediment pond being nearly on top of the hill, the elevation between it and my main pond is minimal. I always knew that a large rain event would cause flow large enough that fish would likely be able to swim up from the main pond into this sediment pond. Till that happened, I was using this sediment pond as a forage and grow out pond to raise RES and some CNBG for the main pond.

Well this rain event: recent large rain event did the trick. And likely there have been other rain events big enough to do so also.

The reason I know? Caught two 12" long CC out of this pond while trying to catch some RES. So not only do I know these CC came from my main pond, it also tells me I not only have CC reproduction in the main pond from this year (been catching some 5" CC in it), but these would have been from last years spawn so I have had CC reproduction in the main pond last year also. Interesting. That is ok, we eat and give away lots of CC so as long as the numbers don't get excessive I don't have a problem with it.

Have toyed with the idea of raising the level of the main pond by another 4" by putting a 22 or 45 degree elbow on the overflow pipe. Have not done it because it would make the water levels within a few inches of the sediment pond making it easier for fish to travel both ways during a rain. Now that I know fish have already migrated I may go ahead and do it. If CC got there LMB are either already there or will be sometime soon.

No biggie. Knew it would happen sooner or later. Still have my forage pond with RES that as far as I know is not yet contaminated.
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#455094 - 08/30/16 06:32 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
I've been getting lots of natural hybrids from this sediment pond because of a few GSF that got in there somehow. That is ok with me as I like the HBG. Here is a picture of one that has grown to decent size.

The markings on this hybrid are very similar to a lot of smaller size fish I have moved from this sediment pond to my main pond. I'm guessing it is HBG but RES/GSF would also be another possibility as there were actually more RES (175)stocked in this pond than CNBG (100).

Edit: Now that I look at the fish in the picture again, could it possibly be a CNBG/RES hybrid? Awfully small mouth for a HBG that is traditional BGxGSF parentage. White tipping on the fins like my CNBG.


Attachments
IMGA1799.JPG (243 downloads)
Description: Hybrid from sediment pond




Edited by snrub (08/30/16 06:37 PM)
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#455183 - 08/31/16 02:36 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
Hunterhoward23 Offline


Registered: 08/09/16
Posts: 19
Loc: Kentucky
The way the body is shaped almost reminds me of a red ear. A hybrid between a red ear and GSF would be possible too wouldn't it?

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#455188 - 08/31/16 03:20 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: Hunterhoward23]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Yes it would and I have been hoping to get some of that cross. I just question if the mouth is big enough to have GSF genes in it.

The translucent red border on the ear tab is what initially led me to believe BG/GSF but if it was a BG/RES or RES/GSF cross the RES part of the genes could account for it.

But a CNBG/RES cross would be ok with me too.


Edited by snrub (08/31/16 03:26 PM)
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#456273 - 09/20/16 06:34 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Here is another couple hybrids. Caught in my main pond but relatively certain they are from the many fingerlings (if trapped or caught by hook and line would have been transferred slightly larger than fingerling) that I have transferred over from my sediment pond.

These hybrid have distinct GSF characteristics.

The potential crosses are RESxGSF and CNBGxGSF. I'm guessing these are CNBG crosses.


Attachments
IMGA1861.JPG (210 downloads)
Description: HBG created in sediment pond

IMGA1862.JPG (171 downloads)
Description: Other side

IMGA1859.JPG (202 downloads)
Description: Another one




Edited by snrub (09/20/16 06:55 PM)
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#456278 - 09/20/16 07:17 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
peachgrower Offline


Registered: 07/02/16
Posts: 420
Loc: Nashville, AR
Got a question for you snrub...do you see a cross that you like better?? Maybe one with GSF that the mouth gape is small enough that it wouldn't impact your forage fish as much? Do they fight as hard as the pures? Just curious.

Thanks!
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#456281 - 09/20/16 08:45 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: peachgrower]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Come back and ask me in a couple years and maybe I will know enough to give you a reasonable answer.

I only became an angler later in life so I'm not much of a fisherman. The pond is all more of an experiment for me. I do like to catch panfish though. Caught probably 25 right before supper. One nice GSF, two 8" nice male BG and a couple smaller hybrids plus an assortment of smaller stuff, not to mention a 6" CC.

The reason I want some RESxGSF cross is just to see what they do. Something different than the regular BGxGSF hybrid.

I do like the hybrids. They seem to grow as well as the faster growing BG but my pond is only 3 years old so it will be interesting as I get into my 4-6 years to see where they each max out. RES can get a little bigger than BG so hoping the RESxBG cross would get to a larger size than the BGxGSF cross. As long as the fish are biting good I think the BG and the hybrids are equally easy to catch. But if the bite gets tough, the hybrids or GSF will be the ones that are most likely caught. They keep biting after the BG have become persnickety.

I just like to play with things and learn. I'm chasing no trophy's although I would take a Kansas GSF state record if I can get one that big.

Whatever you do, don't do what I do. Listen to the experts. I'm just passing along info so others can avoid my mistakes. grin

Right now I've got forage running out my ears and a shortage of LMB to eat them. Some would not consider that a problem I guess. But it does not fit with my pan fish fishery goals.


Edited by snrub (09/20/16 08:51 PM)
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#456283 - 09/20/16 09:00 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
peachgrower Offline


Registered: 07/02/16
Posts: 420
Loc: Nashville, AR
I think we are both in the same boat...I have fished alot in my life though. But only now actually know the difference in BG, RES, GSF, etc. Always called them "perch" or "bream" all rolled into one. Now that I've found this site I'm all in on the panfish side. Now most of my family will want big LMB....sooo those are there too. I hope to have a good balance. I'm like you, in that I'm not after trophys per say, but would love to have alot of 5-8# bass and LOTS of BG and RES in the 9-10" range for little ones to catch. I hope thats possible. Sure the occasional huge helmet head would be awesome, but I don't know if I can get both going.

I think I learn something everyday here though!
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#456286 - 09/20/16 09:21 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: peachgrower]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
If I could get Jeanie from "I Dream of Jeanie" (if you are old enough to remember that show grin ) to twitch her nose and give me the perfect fishery I would have numerous 1# BG, numerous 2# LMB (with an ocasional larger one for my fishing friends) and numerous 2-3# CC.

I would much rather catch 10 2# LMB than cast all day for one 6+#. I get bored easily and if I am not catching something, go find something else to do that is interesting. grin
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#457334 - 10/09/16 08:36 AM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Some forage fish I have been trapping out of this sediment pond and moving to my main pond. Notice the one nice RES. Fortunately I have been trapping lots of fish and moving them and also have caught out a lot of the larger fish and transferred.

I say lucky because this sediment pond is in the process of having a massive fish kill. I suspect some of the smaller ones will make it but still lots of fish piping at the top. Right after a big (around 4" total) rain event this pond was flooded with new, cold water. The other bad thing adding to the problem is we had spread chicken litter (manure plus wood shavings) on the field where the terrace directs water into this pond. We always disc this organic fertilizer in (to incorporate it into the soil) as soon as we apply but this time got caught and did not get this five or so acres done. This particular litter was very dry and dusty when we spread it so the very fine dust washed right into this sediment pond. Plus the stock pile was located in this watershed. At only 1/10th acre and multiple water exchanges it was just too much for the fish.

When I saw them piping at the top, there happened to be a strong wind that blew a lot of them to one end. Using a dip net I netted the larger ones and what was probably a thousand or maybe several thousand small ones from an inch to three inches. I got quite a lot in the day time but after dark where they could not see me I would get up to a gallon of fish per dip net full. So quite a few fish got moved to the main pond.

The main pond got some also, enough to change the water color slightly. But it being 3 acres and the sediment pond being 1/10th no comparison. The sediment pond looked like chocolate milk. The fish are still hitting feed there and seem to not be affected. I definitely am not going to need to add fertilizer though.

The good news is it is on my own land, we did the application ourselves and it is my pond. I'm just glad it was not adjacent to someone else pond. Lesson learned. We always incorporate this litter when we use it, but in the future even more attention will be paid to rain forecast and any fields near BOW's. My bad. At least it was on me and not someone else. On me is bad, on someone else would be terrible.

Another good news is I got to clean out some freeloaders in this pond. Everything of any size was floating to the top and it included 3 CC with one of them being a couple pounds. They got transferred to the main pond. A half dozen 6" GSF. A couple went to the main pond then I decided that was enough and the others were dispatched. One very fat 1.5# bullhead............. have no idea where it came from, but glad it was the only one I found.

So that is my experience on "how to kill fish unintentionally".

Edit: Yes I know, several GSF along with the BG and one either RES or RES hybrid. Probably some other hybrids in there too. Have got a lot of hybrids out of this pond.


Attachments
IMGA1889.JPG (242 downloads)
Description: The nice fish I was trapping and moving to main pond before killing the rest

IMGA1888.JPG (253 downloads)
Description: One of the Gee's traps I use. This one with enlarged opening for larger fish




Edited by snrub (10/09/16 08:43 AM)
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#457361 - 10/09/16 05:19 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
John Fitzgerald Online   content


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1893
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
You get flooded, our drought continues. Hope your fish kill stays confined to that small pond. The guy that gets our hay turkey litters our field. I am going to ask him to not spread litter above the pond in that 1.5 or so acres of the hay field in the watershed. The rest of the watershed is brush and neighbor's horse pasture.
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#457363 - 10/09/16 06:07 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: John Fitzgerald]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
I think under any ordinary circumstances I would have been fine. It was just the culmination of several factors all at once that did me in.

Had we had a moderate rain first to get it attached to some cover or soil. Had we got it disc like we planned. Had the litter been more wet than so dry and dusty. Had we not had the stock pile right at the peak of the hill where after it was cleaned up there was still a flat circle of concentration of which the runoff went directly into that terrace.

I think in established grass the only problem you might have is if something happened just like it did for me. A huge rain right after application.

My fish in the main pond seem to be fine. I'll know in the next week or so how many of the small fish died. The only thing I really cared much about was my breeding size RES. I may try to catch a half dozen nice ones out of my forage pond for breeders for this pond when the water gets fit. That actually might be beneficial, because then the only large fish (of reproduction capability size) would be the RES I put in there. The small RES or BG that survive would be sometime next summer before they could spawn. That would give the brood RES a jump start.

This might not have been such a bad deal after all!


Edited by snrub (10/09/16 06:09 PM)
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#457538 - 10/13/16 10:33 AM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2290
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
snrub, my sediment pond is filling up with sand after heavy rain events. What used to be 8' deep is now 3' deep. This was the purpose of this sediment pond and was designed to stop that same sand from going into the pond. The problem I see coming is where to put all the sand when I re dig this sediment pond. Looks like it will need to be cleaned up about every yr or so. I have thought of dong what I think u have done and that is building another sediment pond above and behind the first one. I am a little concerned that doing it this way might reduce the amount of water that enters the main pond. Thoughts or suggestions? Thanks
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#457546 - 10/13/16 12:48 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13364
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Tracy, I also have a lot of sand. My land is essentially a long rocky and sandy hill. I'm sure that the floods of the last couple of years have reduced my depth. I've dropped cedar trees in some of the runoff areas to hold back the sand and have rerouted some of the areas to hold it back. But I can't stop it all.
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#457593 - 10/14/16 08:51 AM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2290
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Thanks Dave, I read in earlier post's where u had added some cedars to your runoff areas and so I did something similar by using some good old E Texas brush. Thanks for your earlier post. I also planted some rice in the ditch along with building some small levies hoping to reduce the amount of sand going into the sediment and the big pond. It has helped but I have now come to realize I will have to dig out the sand if I want to continue to raise fhm's in this sediment pond. snrub mentioned having two sediment ponds and was wondering if they tied into each other and if it had affected the big ponds water levels. That is one of my concerns because the runoff area is the main contributory to my big ponds water supply. My sediment pond is now raising two things, Fhm's and Bull Frogs. I have 15 small 6" bull frogs living in this pond along with about two pounds of fhm's. I have already added an additional pound of them to the big pond so far. Now I am wondering where to place all this sand when I redig the pond this coming spring. If I build a beach area, the sand might just run into the pond and so I am back to square one.


Edited by TGW1 (10/14/16 08:57 AM)
Edit Reason: sp
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#457597 - 10/14/16 09:59 AM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
John Fitzgerald Online   content


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1893
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Can you spread the sand downhill from the watershed?
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#457600 - 10/14/16 10:41 AM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13364
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Tracy, a neighbor dug out a lot of sand. He spread it around a field and disked it in.
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It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#457789 - 10/17/16 11:05 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: snrub
Originally Posted By: snrub
Added a Pre-sediment pond to the sediment pond. Had room in the terrace channel coming into the sediment pond to make an approximate 40'long by 20' wide by 5-6' deep mini-mini-mini pond.

This one is small enough I can easily clean it out with the backhoe as needed. It should catch the largest dirt particles and any corn shucks or debris that comes of the agriculture field right next to it. Ag field is in the background in the first picture.

Water comes from the field via a terrace, through a double culvert that has a road over the top, and dumps directly into this very small pond. It then exits this pond and runs over about 30' of the original terrace channel (which is rocked and is part of a 4-wheeler road) into the sediment pond. Then ultimately the water goes from the sediment pond into the main pond.

Pictures are poor. It snowed before I thought of taking some. Will get better pictures when it fills with water.

The clay piled to the left in the first picture (to the right in second picture) will eventually be moved out and used elsewhere.

May throw a few FHM in it next spring just for kicks.


Wanted to add an observation to this thread. Last year I had added a few 4" RES to this pre-sediment pond and many many small 2" BG had swam upstream into it during numerous rain events (only time water flows) from the sediment pond and had grown to 3" or so. Lots of FHM too. I could observe them from the bank and trapped lots of them to put in the main pond.

An interesting thing happened. We had a reasonably large rain event that caused lots of flow through on this tiny pond (which is expected). I found a couple of dead 5" RES after the water subsided and no small BG to be found and only a small population of mid size FHM. Either most of the fish washed down stream into the sediment pond or died.

Previously high water flows have caused small fish to swim upstream and populate this pond. This time something else happened. I don't have a definative answer as to what happened or why, but somw possibilities.

First, the runoff of the corn field came very fast. There was probably at least a ten times full volume water exchange in this pond within a time period of a few hours (this pre-sediment pond is only about 40' long by 20' wide by 6' deep). It was a cold rain following unusually warm weather and warm water.

One thought is that extreme temp and/or Ph change got to the fish and killed them. Or at least some of the larger ones and the smaller ones stressed and washed into the sediment pond (it is about 1/10th of an acre). The other possibility is the field had been sprayed with a corn herbicide a few days earlier so herbicide runoff could have also possibly stressed the fish. Water went from clear/green with a nice algae bloom to muddy in a short time (the very reason this pre-sediment pond was built to be the first line of defense from runoff from this field - so it is doing its job). Or a combination of stress factors.

Loosing the fish is not a big deal. The tiny pond is to catch sediment before it reaches the sediment pond or main pond. I just thought it interesting observation of what happened after this small pond had been so fertile in small fish numbers and now it is almost without fish. The water is starting to clear up. I'm sure with another rain small fish will again migrate up to it and repopulate it. Probably for this same thing to happen all over again at some future date.

Tiny ponds with hugh flow through have some special chalenges.



Decided to do something about the high flow through in the pre-sediment pond. Not really able to change the amount of flow through, but change the way the fish can react to it. Basically I connected the pre-sediment pond directly to the sediment pond via a 6" PVC pipe that is about a foot under water at full pool. That way fish can swim back and forth from pond to pond where before they were stuck in the ponds separately till a large rain event. Now they can travel back and forth through the pipe at will. This will hopefully allow fish to move down stream to better water as large inflows happen. Pictures below.

Covered the pipe with coarse rock that water can also permeate through. I also dug the pre-sediment pond about 25% larger. That brought it closer to the sediment pond so I was able to use a single 20' joint of pipe to connect the two ponds while also allowing a little larger sediment area.

I wanted to keep the ponds separate instead of just completely joining them both into a single pond for a couple of reasons. By keeping them apart and controlling water flow I should get a lot of the sedimentation dropping out in the pre-sediment pond which I can clean out with a backhoe. Also I wanted to maintain a road between them where I drive the 4-wheeler. If at some point I do want to treat the ponds differently, all I have to do is put a 6" cap on the pipe. Then they will be separate BOW's again.

Under light runoff conditions all the water will flow through the 6" pipe. When the flow is higher than the pipe can handle the water will run over the top just like it used to.


Attachments
IMGA1876.JPG (180 downloads)
Description: Dug trench between ponds with backhoe

IMGA1877.JPG (229 downloads)
Description: Installed 6" sched 40 PVC pipe. Covered with coarse 2-3" lateral crushed limestone




Edited by snrub (10/17/16 11:20 PM)
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#457813 - 10/18/16 01:49 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
John Fitzgerald Online   content


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1893
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
I like what you have done with the ponds...you have a complete fishery there.
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#457822 - 10/18/16 04:22 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: John Fitzgerald]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
I've raised the level on all three ponds now. This is what the new level looks like in the forage pond (front of picture) and sediment pond (rear). The main pond is to the right of the first picture and as I recall at the time was a few inches over full pool running out the overflow.

If it every dries up and I get the time, I'm going to add about 18" to the water level in my old pond. But that will take some dirt work and adding an overflow pipe. Just a dirt/rock overflow area right now.

We really like the new water levels.


Attachments
IMGA1918.JPG (219 downloads)
Description: Forage pond (front of picture), sediment pond (rear) and east side of main pond (right).

IMGA1928.JPG (198 downloads)
Description: sediment pond overflow - note water in elbow is water level of main pond

IMGA1923.JPG (196 downloads)
Description: water level of main pond at the time.


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#458414 - 10/29/16 10:46 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: TGW1]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: TGW1
snrub, my sediment pond is filling up with sand after heavy rain events. What used to be 8' deep is now 3' deep. This was the purpose of this sediment pond and was designed to stop that same sand from going into the pond. The problem I see coming is where to put all the sand when I re dig this sediment pond. Looks like it will need to be cleaned up about every yr or so. I have thought of dong what I think u have done and that is building another sediment pond above and behind the first one. I am a little concerned that doing it this way might reduce the amount of water that enters the main pond. Thoughts or suggestions? Thanks


My little addition I call the Pre-Sediment pond is just wide enough I can reach the middle with the backhoe and I just extended it to where it is now probably 50' long. Maybe 5-6' deep. So it should be really easy to clean out with my backhoe. As far as additional water, the size of it and the gallons held is minimal compared to my main pond. I think its benefits will far outweigh any extra evaporation loss I might get and as far as taking away water from my main pond I think will also be minimal.

In the picture below the water is still flowing and I have since added just enough gravel so at full pool I can drive over the tube without driving through water. Water now flows through a 6" tube during low flow rain events but spills over this drive during big rains.


Attachments
IMGA1909.JPG (144 downloads)
Description: Pre-sediment pond




Edited by snrub (10/29/16 10:49 PM)
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#458416 - 10/29/16 11:06 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Well the fish truck from Dunns came around last Thursday and decided to see if the water was fit for fish to live after the total fish kill in this pond. Got 100 2" RES and 2# of FHM and put about 70 of the RES and about a pound of FHM in this 1/10th acre sediment pond. I took an extra long time to acclimate them since the water was still stained very brown with tannin. But algae was growing new around the edges and there were snails galore moving around in the shallows. I first put a small batch in to see if they went immediately belly up and they seemed ok so put the rest in.

No floaters the next day so all seems ok.

Then I started catching RES out of my forage pond. Since the little ones had not died, started putting adult RES in also. Had I known I would be able to catch bigger fish I likely would not have even bought any fingerlings. So far have put 9 adult RES ranging from 5" up to a couple that were 10"+. Couple 9" and a couple 7". Am going to try and catch one more and make it 10.

That should give me adult RES that are ready to spawn next spring, then the 2" fingerlings from Dunn's should be spawning size by late next summer. So hopefully will have a pond full of RES by next fall.

I think I had a complete fish kill in this pond. All the big fish died and a lot of fish on the bank all the way down to an inch and two inch in length. So if any lived they likely would be small fish. Saw just a handful of Gams but I think they came in a couple days later from the pre-sediment pond where quite a few Gams (and maybe BG) survived. Since these two ponds are now connected by a 6" tube, it is possible there could be some small BG. Or maybe not.

But at any rate, with these big RES I am putting in this pond, they should have the upper hand on any spawning that goes on next year. That is unless we have another huge rain where BG and who knows what can swim upstream and get in. But I am hoping for lots of RES recruitment next year.

Some of the brood stock pics below.


Attachments
IMGA1959.JPG (153 downloads)
IMGA1962.JPG (164 downloads)
IMGA1964.JPG (127 downloads)
IMGA1965.JPG (176 downloads)



Edited by snrub (10/29/16 11:07 PM)
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#470758 - 04/29/17 03:54 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Anyone building a new pond or even adding to an old pond, I highly recommend adding some sort of sediment or settling pond ahead of the main pond if you have a watershed that tends to have sediment erosion or high nutrient loads.

Below are pictures that are actually showing that the sediment pond is being over loaded. In other words some sediment and muddy water is flowing through the sediment pond and making it to the main pond. But imagine how much more sediment and mud would be getting into the main pond without first flowing through the sediment pond and a much small pre-sediment pond I have ahead of the sediment pond. At least the larger particles are being dropped in the sediment pond before it reaches the main pond.

I believe my sediment pond will make my main pond last numerous more years and keep the water in better shape each year by first having the portion of runoff that comes off agricultural land first flow through the pre-sediment and sediment ponds.

First two pictures are from a couple days ago right after a fairly large rain. Last two pictures are from today where enough water flowed the overflow pipe could not handle all of it so some was going over the emergency overflow. Most average rains the overflow pipe will handle the water.

Both ponds in last two pictures several inches over full pool.


Attachments
IMGA2165.JPG (191 downloads)
Description: Water in sediment pond flowing into the overflow pipe that goes to main pond

IMGA2164.JPG (160 downloads)
Description: Water flowing out of sediment pond into main pond during a fairly large rain event before sediment can fully settle out,

IMGA2180.JPG (159 downloads)
Description: Rain today flowing from sediment pond into main pond

IMGA2181.JPG (186 downloads)
Description: emergency overflow water flowing from sediment pond into main pond




Edited by snrub (04/29/17 04:00 PM)
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#481444 - 10/21/17 11:12 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
Been fishing this sediment pond pretty hard to clear out some of the unwanted fish to give more room for the RES to reproduce.

If you read above I had a fish kill in this pond last year and restocked it about this time last year. Obviously it was not a total kill because I have been removing some HBG, CNBG and GSF that would be about the right size to have been fingerlings that survived last year. Hybrids and CNBG I move to my main pond and the GSF I either clip the tails and put in main pond for bass feed or get rid of them. Also been trapping with minnow traps and doing the same.

So some fish survived, but what about the RES I stocked? (the only thing I re-stocked). Well I caught two RES tonight and based on their size I would guess they were a couple of adults I stocked a year ago. If they were from the fingerlings I stocked they would have grown really fast, so I suspect they were not. At least it is good to know there are some RES in there, as they are the desired species I want to increase numbers.

Pretty nice RES. I would like to have lots just like them. Maybe I do and just can't catch them. crazy


Attachments
20171021_171400.jpg (92 downloads)
Description: First RES caught

20171021_174235.jpg (107 downloads)
Description: Second RES caught




Edited by snrub (10/22/17 12:51 AM)
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#483829 - 12/06/17 10:23 PM Re: do sediment ponds work? [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
This sediment pond is taking a new direction today, as far as the fish in it are concerned. Its primary function is to catch sediment and some of the nutrients from ag land runoff before it reaches my main pond. That function has not changed.

There is only about 6" difference elevation full pool of this 1/10th acre sediment pond in relation to my main 3 acre pond it feeds into. I have always assumed that eventually LMB fingerlings would swim upstream via the emergency overflow or the overflow pipe from my main pond into this sediment pond. I know northern BG have (I watched them do it) and CC have (I caught a few hook and line and netted a few at the time of the fish kill). But as far as I know no LMB. I think the only reason is that I am getting no LMB recruitment in my main pond. No small LMB in my main pond so none to be available to swim up during high water event.

LMB in this sediment pond changed today. I stocked 100 4"-6" LMB from Hartley Fish Farm. My thinking is I am getting more GSF than I want to see in this tiny pond. I knew some day the BG would over populate and I would need to introduce a predator if none got there via high water. But after the fish kill, more GSF survived than BG. I did restock RES but the GSF were likely to run roughshod over the pond come next year.

So......... I needed multiple sizes of LMB added to my main pond. I have friends catch LMB out of my main pond what appears to be in the 4-6# range. I caught one about 2-3# this fall. I have larger LMB but seem to get no recruitment. We filleted over 400 BG this fall and caught and released at least that many over the year and out of all that BG fishing I caught a total of 2 LMB. I should be catching various sizes of small LMB while BG fishing, but I do not.

So this pond is going to be the solution to the lack of LMB recruitment. That and the 400+ BG I removed from my main pond. Plan is to raise these LMB to a size my big LMB can not eat them, catch them by hook and line, and transfer them to the main pond where they are needed to control my out of control BG population. So this sediment pond is now going to be a LMB rearing pond for a time. The 100 fingerling LMB should whup up on the GSF in there. Once they get about a foot long I will start catching them and over a year period try to remove as many as I can catch before they reach spawning size/age. Then go from there. At some point I likely will get recruitment in this pond (because I will never be able to catch all 100 and remove every one) and face an over supply of LMB fingerlings. I guess I will cross that bridge when I get to it.


Attachments
20171206_131744.jpg (80 downloads)
Description: 100 LMB fingerlings stocked




Edited by snrub (12/06/17 10:31 PM)
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#490363 - 05/20/18 04:34 PM sediment pond doing its job [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4725
Loc: SE Kansas
I'm so glad I built this sediment pond to take the brunt of runoff from my main pond.

Although it does not catch and settle out all the sediment from the agricultural land runoff, it catches a lot of it keeping it out of my main pond. Pictures below, first of sediment pond after about 1.8" of rain this weekend on already mostly saturated soils (so most run off). Second is of the main pond water. Notice its color compared to the sediment pond. Third picture is of water coming out of sediment pond into the main pond via the 8" overflow pipe. Notice there is still dirty water coming into the main pond but there would be lots more sediment and dirt filling the main pond without the settlement time from the water traveling the length of the sediment pond.

On a side note, we have had very little rain in big enough events to have much run off till recently. Subsequently the sediment pond has been very clear with a massive amount of FA. This turbid water pictured will pretty well do the FA in for the year.

Main pond within a half inch of being at full pool. Have not seen that for quite some time. It has been dry this spring.


Attachments
20180520_124402 (600 x 600).jpg (30 downloads)
Description: Sediment pond after 1.8" rain event on saturated soil showing turbid water

20180520_124416 (600 x 600).jpg (28 downloads)
Description: Main 3 acre pond near the water inflow from the sediment pond.

20180520_124446 (600 x 600).jpg (24 downloads)
Description: Turbid water coming in from the sediment pond into main pond. If a rain event is too big the water does not slow enough to remove all the sediment.




Edited by snrub (05/20/18 04:36 PM)
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