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#391319 - 10/31/14 06:45 PM Supplemental Stocking Fatalities?
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5654
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Hey guys I have a question on the dynamics that occur within the pond when supplemental stocking is done.

Years ago I did an experiment where I had an African ciclid in one aquarium and a BG in the other. When I placed the BG in the ciclid's tank, the ciclid attacked the BG relentlessly until I had to remove it before it was dead. The BG did not fight back. A few weeks later, when the fish had recovered, I placed the ciclid into the BG tank. Same result except this time the BG was the aggressor and nearly killed the ciclid. When I placed both fish into a "new" tank at the same time they pretty much ignored each other.

In a pond does the same thing happen to some extent when new fish are added to the pond? Is there some fatalities to the new additions due to territorial behavior?

Thanks!


Edited by Bill D. (10/31/14 06:54 PM)
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#391322 - 10/31/14 07:15 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Pat Williamson Offline


Registered: 08/08/14
Posts: 2414
Loc: Oakwood,Texas
Bill years ago I was into African cichlids and had a pet shop what you say is true but if you mix up the rocks and such in the tank everybody has to start fresh. I don't know if a pond works that way due to its large size but I would think that the prime spots would be defended just like in an aquarium setting to a degree. Interesting to think about.

Pat W

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#391326 - 10/31/14 07:30 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5654
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Thanks Pat. Sounds right. Probably the smaller the pond the more likely it would occur. Thanks also for correcting my spelling on cichlid. It didn't look right but figured you guys would know what I meant.
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#391342 - 10/31/14 10:07 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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There is definitely terretorial behavoir among fish in a pond but it depends on the species and time of year and of course density. When I pellet fed up to 400 largemouth bass up to 6 lbs. in a .62 acre pond I had individuals that would be very aggressive with the other bass. It was like a guy in a bar just looking for someone to fight. In my trout pond I try to scatter the feed so I don't miss some of the fish as some don't appear to be allowed in certain area.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (10/31/14 10:08 PM)
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#391424 - 11/02/14 09:22 AM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
Pat Williamson Offline


Registered: 08/08/14
Posts: 2414
Loc: Oakwood,Texas
Bill
I wonder if u you added alittle cover like sinking. Cedar trees in the area that you added new fish that would cut down on possible territorial fighting untill the new guys got established in the area. In an aquarium environment if you don't mix things up and rearrange rocks and plants a little some species will actually kill one another


Pat W

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#391474 - 11/02/14 06:43 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5654
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Pat,

A little background on my pond ...

1/4 acre built in fall 2013 (3 to 9 feet depth) and expanded a little in July 2014. Plan to expand more in 2015 and go to 12 feet on addition.

Stocked with 500 or so FHM April 2014
Once the FHM were spawning well, stocked 75 BG 2 to 6 inches thru June
Also added 15 CC 8 to 10 inches

In July a friend gave me 6 YP 3 to 5 and 1 WE 8 in (WE added as a novelty catch)

In August added 5 SMB 8 to 10 (Took these cause they were free. Pond will have LMB as top predator in the future. SMB will be a novelty catch). Also 1 Drum and 1 RKB added for novelty catch.

Currently lots and lots of FHM and BG fry

Fall stocking plan for this week

100 PS 2 to 3
10 LMB 5 to 8
5 LBS FHM
25 YP 5 to 7

Currently there is little vegetation. (I am working with Bill Cody on the vegetation plan for next spring.) Cover is several brush piles and logs.

I figure if any territorial battles occur during the upcoming stocking, probably due mostly to the small pond size and lack of vegetation cover, it would be the BG not happy about the introduction of PS. Hopefully, the lower water temps and the relatively small size of the PS will make it a non-issue.
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#391479 - 11/02/14 08:01 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Pat Williamson Offline


Registered: 08/08/14
Posts: 2414
Loc: Oakwood,Texas
Bill
My pond is about5 ac. I put 50lbs FHM in 800 CNBG 200RES this spring then someone bucket stocked some LMB. They have spawned this spring and have eaten up all the FHM and I don't see any YOY CNBG oh I also put in 300 BNC . I would make sure the BG get a head start breeding before adding the dreaded LMB s. Lol I like bass but timing is the key to adding those eating machines.

Pat W

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#391481 - 11/02/14 09:06 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5654
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Hopefully the earlier stocking of the few larger BG will keep me with some fry. One of the beauties of my small little pond, and there are many (even if in my eyes only!), I can restock my forage at a relatively small expense. I am thinking stocking the larger YP and the small PS may take some pressure off the BG and FHM. If a few PS survive to spawn I figure I am ahead of the game. Everybody says the FHM will disappear as time goes by but I am going to try to maintain a population to support the YP as I love to eat YP!. Any suggestions on cover that will help that FHM goal along?

Of course all the stocking numbers I gave you are minus GBH neighbor's take!


Edited by Bill D. (11/02/14 09:17 PM)
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#391484 - 11/02/14 09:20 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13600
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Lots of territorial behavior. There's also cuckolding by satellite male BG's.
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#391486 - 11/02/14 09:25 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5654
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Dave,

That's my concern. Hopefully, by stocking smaller PS those cock BG will overlook their intrusion. If I see lots of tattered PS I will let you know.
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#391489 - 11/02/14 10:38 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
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Bill, if you stock LMB, expect to see a majority of the forage AND the YP disappear in a few years. They are eating machines!!!! In a 1/4 ac pond, I would really recommend looking at leaving it a SMB only as a top predator (along with the CC if you don't keep them under 3# each) or I would add HSB and make sure I have a feeding program in place.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#391499 - 11/03/14 08:00 AM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5654
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Esshup,

Thanks for the input. Will the SMB have a large enough mouth gap to keep the BG and PS from stunting? Will they target the YP as the preferred diet?

How many SMB should I stock and what size? Keep in mind I have 5 already.


Edited by Bill D. (11/03/14 08:01 AM)
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#391503 - 11/03/14 08:48 AM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
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They may not keep the BG in check, but TJ is keeping them in check in his SMB/HSB pond.

A client stocked around 80 SMB (I think that's the number) in a 1 ac pond, that already had a population of RES and YP. 15 10"+ smb 6 mos or so after stocking around 60 SMB 4"-6". IIRC 2-3 years ago.

There were FHM and GSH also in the pond, along with crayfish. A survey this year showed the SMB are overeating their forage base, and are running anywhere from low 70% to upper 80% Relative weight. The smaller fish are OK RW wise, but anything over 9" or so is underweight. The SMB aleady pulled off at least one spawn, and I think the first spawn is showing the low RW. The larger SMB that were stocked were all tagged and no tagged fish were caught and weighed.

In a small pond, it's relatively easy to adjust fish populations, and keeping good records of fish length and weights is your best tool to keep track of how the fish are doing in your pond. Bill Cody is much better at figureing out fish stocking rates for SMB/YP than I am, but "bucket stocking" as you are is the wild card.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#391504 - 11/03/14 08:58 AM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5654
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Since the hatchery is supposed to call me today to arrange a pickup time, I need to make a quick decision.

I have the 5 SMB now. The hatchery I am using is Keystone and they do not have HSB.

Since the pond is so young, should I maybe just drop the LMB from my order and just stock the PS, FHM and YP for now? Maybe bump up the YP from 25 to ?
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#391514 - 11/03/14 09:43 AM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
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Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
You can always add the predators later based on what type of forage production you are seeing and your ultimate goals. You may decide to change your goals for predators over the winter after doing more homework. Since you have the 5 SMB I would stick with SMB as main predator and later add more SMB andor some HSB. LMB can always be added much later if you are not happy with results of the SMB/HSB predator base. The SMB will likely spawn in spring of 2015 or 2016. Monitor those offspring and then make changes.


Edited by Bill Cody (11/03/14 09:47 AM)
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#391516 - 11/03/14 09:52 AM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5654
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Thanks Bill,

Since HSB is not an option at Keystone, would you just go with the 100 PS, 5 lbs FHM and 25 YP for this fall's stocking plan?
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#391517 - 11/03/14 09:59 AM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
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Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
If you want the main panfish to be YP and you can get pellet trained YP you can add up to 100 of the 5"-7" size or split or blend the new YP to 4"-6" and 5"-7". This will allow a YP harvest of 15-25 next fall when some of the YP should be 8"-11". HSB can always be added later at any time as 5"-7" stockers that are often available in fall. I would increase the FHM to 15-20 lbs if you increase the YP numbers.


Edited by Bill Cody (11/03/14 10:03 AM)
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#391520 - 11/03/14 10:40 AM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5654
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Thanks Bill and Esshup for the advice.

The decision is in.....

50 YP 5 to 7 (May only be 25 if more are not available at this late date. Keystone said they would try)

5 lbs FHM
100 PS 2 to 3

will be stocked this fall.
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#391522 - 11/03/14 10:49 AM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Rainman Offline
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Registered: 06/06/07
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Loc: St Louis, MO area
Bill, where are you in the state? I am delivering a bunch of YP to Greenville IL soon and would be glad to meet you. YP are readily available. I am also picking up HSB...
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#391526 - 11/03/14 12:09 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5654
Loc: Boone County Illinois
I am near Belvidere. About 4 mile East of Rockford....A long way from Greenville
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#391541 - 11/03/14 02:51 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
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Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Consider bumping the FHM up to 10 or more pounds if only 5 lbs now and then add some in spring to insure a FHM spawn. It is important to stock pellet trained YP or FHM will always be in very short supply until the bass are added. Even the 5 SMB you now have will readily eat FHM from now until May. How bid were those 5 SMB?


Edited by Bill Cody (11/03/14 02:52 PM)
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#391543 - 11/03/14 03:26 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5654
Loc: Boone County Illinois
The SMB were 8 to 10 inch when I put them in late August


Edited by Bill D. (11/03/14 03:27 PM)
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#391546 - 11/03/14 03:51 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
brook wilson Offline


Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 187
Loc: south central illinois
Rainman, I'm interested in those YP, and I'm a couple counties southeast of Greenville. I would have stocked them originally but didn't know of a supplier. Are they still an option for my pond? Pond is a little over 2 years old, is 1 acre, and has a max depth of 14ft. I've added some cover. It was stocked w/HBG and RES. Both are doing exceptionally well, and there has been recruitment--too much I sometimes fear. I feed by hand every time I'm down there, which is daily spring thru fall. Last Dec, I added 38 WE and 40 SMB (I only ordered 25 of ea but received extra). I still have an unbelievable amount of FHM. WE are doing very well, but I'm unsure of the SMB.

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#391547 - 11/03/14 04:09 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
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Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Bill D. Those 5 smallies could easily eat 1000-1200 FHM from now to the end of May 2015. FHM are easy for a bass to catch. This does not include what the YP would eat. FHM at 2" are about 300 fish per pound. This is the detail of estimated FHM eaten by each smallie per month: Nov 20, Jan 10, Feb 10, Mar 20, Apr 70, May 100.


Edited by Bill Cody (11/03/14 04:12 PM)
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#391548 - 11/03/14 04:12 PM Re: Supplemental Stocking Fatalities? [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5654
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Do you think the 2 to 3 inch PS are too big for the SMB?
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