Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions Pond bottom soil sample

I have problems with clarity and tried many things. I have taken a bottom soil sample and need to tell my local co-op what I'm looking for?
They can check anything I want but they want to know what to focus on???????????WHAT AM I LOOKING FOR???? NEED HELP from the PRO's outhere.

Not sure what you mean about clarity problems.

Well I'm talking about water clarity. My pond is about 1acre ave.depth 5ft. 4years old. No erosion problems, no catfish, no carp, added Lime and Alum in past. I read an article at some piont that recommended a bottom soil sample. I can't remember where and what to exactly test for, I just know that a bottom soil sample was recommended in reference to water clarity issues. Is there anyone that can direct me into what I,m looking for in the soil sample that would relate to water clarity?

Randy :

I often suggest pond bottom soil sample tests. Not for clarity reasons although it may well help you figure that out as well. I would tell the agent to have it run for aquaculture/pond mgt. purposes. That will tell you the nature of the dirt you are working with. Acid/base , missing factors, N , P ,K and other contents and how to treat the soil for aquaculture purposes. When you get the results post them and we can get the chemists and ag- specialists here to take a look. Here is a link .

http://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm?catid=25
see:
SRAC 460 Control of Clay Turbidity in Ponds

My question relates to the clarity issues that you are concerned with. Muddy water, clear water, etc. In other words, do you have a problem and if so, what is it?

Sorry,
MUDDY water, I have cleared it at times up to 18in , but seems to always go back to about 6in.,
I reallly would like 18-24 clarity. I have tried almost everything over past 2yrs. What will I look for in a soil sample and is it signifigent anyway?????? Again my problem is MUDDY water.
Thanks
Randy

I'm not real sure what you would learn that would be beneficial. Muddy water involves suspended clay or sand. Something is keeping the soils suspended. However, I could be wrong. I'm wrong a lot. Anybody jump in here.

I think the question you're trying to solve is why the pond is muddy. There are generally only 2 reasons. One is external and you don't seem to have cattle, catfish or any other "vehicle" that keeps soils suspended. Wind might do it but not likely. The other is sort of chemical and involves suspended, charged particles that keep bumping against each other and not settling to the bottom. Think of a pinball machine.

Do a jar test. If you've already tried this or heard of it, I'm repeating things you already know.

Take a couple of the jars of the water and set them aside. If they clear, you know some external factor is stirring the water. If they don't clear, you know that the problem is soil (clay or sand) related. Add some gypsum to the jar and see what happens. If the gyp helps, take a look at my post under the Muddy Water thread regarding my question to US Gypsum.


Here's the tough thing about muddy water. I asked Lusk about clearing it last spring. He said sometimes nothing works and told me about a guy on the South West side of Fort Worth who has added huge amounts (I don't remember how much) to his water hole to no avail.

Good luck.

The suspension of clay particles (after initial settling has occurred) is often due to the type of particle and its charge. Different chemicals have different charges and the right mix may cause the charges to offset and thus fall out of suspension. See the above link. Here is part. It lists more causes , reasons and info .

The chemistry of colloidal clay suspensions

The chemistry of colloidal clay suspensions is not completely understood, primarily because fairly complex physical and chemical processes are involved. Clay particles are extremely small;
some are even smaller than bacteria. Therefore, they will not settle readily, even in still water. The small size of these particles means
that they have an extremely high surface area relative to the volume of the particle. A clay particle can be envisioned as a flat plate cov-
ered with a negative electrical charge that attracts the positive ions in water. Positive ions that are immediately adjacent to the clay particle are said to be "adsorbed," while others that are farther away are less strongly attracted. In water, negatively charged clay particles are surrounded by clouds of positively
charged ions. When these particles, surrounded by their ion clouds, come close to each other they are repulsed, much the same way similar poles of two magnets will repel each other (Fig. 1). The cumulative effect of the repulsion
of a huge number of small particles prevents their aggregation into larger, heavier particles that would settle more readily. Taken together then, the extremely small size of clay particles and the surface electrical charge explain how particles remain in suspension.

Flocculation and coagulation

Flocculation is a way of controlling clay turbidity by adding substances to water that facilitate the formation of bridges between particles (Fig. 2), allowing them to combine into groups of small particles called "flocs" (Fig. 3). Metal salts make good flocculants, depending on pH. These hydrolyzed metal compounds
destabilize colloids by shrinking the layer of positively charged ions surrounding clay particles, which increases the attraction of one particle to another (coagulation). Hydrolyzed metals also can be adsorbed onto the surfaces of clay particles and create bridges to other particles (flocculation). As these particles begin to settle, they ensnare other particles, become progressively heavier, and settle much more readily from suspension. In general, the effectiveness of coagulants increases with the
charge on the metal ion. The sodium (Na+) in sodium chloride (NaCl) is not a very effective coagulant. The calcium (Ca2+) in gypsum (CaSO4) is more effective because it carries a +2 charge.The aluminum (Al3+) in alum and the ferric-iron (Fe3+) in ferric sulfate are more effective yet because they carry a +3 charge. Some companies now manufacture various synthetic "polyelectrolytes," which are large, long-chained molecules with even more charge than the metal salt coagulants listed here.

Randy, do other landowners around you have muddy ponds?

If so, what, if anything, have they done about it?

If not, can you identify what differentiates your situation from theres?

Hi Guys,
Finally got my soil sample results. Remember my original problem is clarity (murky/muddy).I recall reading an article recommending a bottom soil sample. Again my pond is 1acre, 6ft.ave depth, 4yrs old and I can't seem to keep it clear. Here are the results of a soil sample taken from the bottom. What are your thoughts???
pH-8.0
Phos.-28ppm med.range
Potas.-74ppm very low
Cal.-3779ppm- very high
Mag.-158ppm med.
ANY THOUGHTS WOULD BE APPRECIATED??????????????

randy, i cant answer your question based on the soil sample results, but had a thought (a kind of "in general" thing)......

is it possible to conduct a series of "bench scale" tests on pond water....in other words would a vendor be amenable to selling a small quantity of a variety of chemical and or biological agents with which the pondmeister could test the compounds individually at home.....line up a bunch of mason jars on work bench and test each one? carefully measure the ratio of pond water and testing agent and extrapolate to pond volume when you find one that works? it might help to promise the vendor you'd buy the larger scale amount from him if you find one that works.

Did you get the water tested? I am not sure of how you go from soil to water for conversion purposes but the water will generally reflect the soil. Having said that read below. You appear to have high calcium so see the [ ] part below. Here is the fact sheet link.

http://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm?catid=25
see:
SRAC 460 Control of Clay Turbidity in Ponds


Although not nearly as effective

as alum, gypsum also can be used

to control turbidity but without

the loss of alkalinity. Gypsum

must be added to achieve a concentration

of 100 to 300 mg/L for

effective turbidity control. For

most ponds, gypsum application

rates will range from about 1,000

to 2,000 pounds per acre (Fig. 4).

[ In hard-water ponds (calcium

hardness greater than 50 mg/L),

the water is nearly saturated with

calcium and gypsum may be ineffective.

In that situation, alum will

be the only effective coagulant.]

All the coagulants mentioned can

remove phosphorus from water.

As phosphorus is an essential

plant nutrient, it may be necessary

to fertilize the pond after treating

it for turbidity.

In light of your somewhat alkaline conditions, a much less amount of alum should clear it up than would be required using gypsum.. Probably wont have to use enough to make it too acid and your soil should put alkalinity back into it. Do lots of reading about how to apply alum in a stocked pond so as not to stress the fish abnormally. You can always have a little hydrated lime to help neutralize the alum. Have a testing kit handy to monitor the water. I wouldn't have a problem DIY, but if you feel uneasy you may want to hire it to be done.

Today I was at the farm supply and there was the boxes for the dirt sample. I grabbed a few and called. The agent was very informative and wants me to send him soil from the bottom, which he told me how to collect. He also wants water to determine if I could use some fertilizer. I forgot to ask him so I will ask here. I know the soil test is good to do right now so I can get lime in if its needed but how about the water sample? Should I do it now or wait till spring or when is the best time for that. Thanks

High clay turbidity is a problem because it has direct and indirect effects on pond productivity. Organic fertilization is an alternative to gypsum. My choice for an organic fertilizer is rice bran. This is an excellent food for zooplankton and benthos. Add it like you are feeding the pond two or three times a week. It will also stimulate bacteria which help aggregation of clay particles.

Joey,

Under the topic, "Water Chemistry", I asked the same question about timing a water test. The replies given may address your question. A link to my question has been provided.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000084