Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,901
Posts557,103
Members18,452
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,417
ewest 21,475
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,111
Who's Online Now
11 members (Dylanfrely, Bill Cody, Boondoggle, FishinRod, esshup, PRCS, Layne, nvcdl, H20fwler, Bing, Fishingadventure), 717 guests, and 176 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#390539 10/25/14 01:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
F
OP Offline
F
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
I own some property 45 miles north of Montgomery Alabama. It has two springs that run down into a bottom feeding a branch. I am pretty sure there is enough acreage in the bottom to build a 2 - 3 acre pond. Most of the land save the tree lines along the springs and the branch is pasture. Will have to get some topographic work done to see whats possible. I know that the branch has minnows and at least one species of small bream.

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8804285,-86.0185287,313m/data=!3m1!1e3

The two tree lines forming a V pointing to the right (east) feeds the branch that flows north (up) along the treeline at the edge east edge of the field.

My stocking goal is LMB, RES and TFS.

Would the TFS survive in the winter?
Would the TFS produce enough fry to support the LMB?
Would any RES offspring survive the LMB onslaught?

I would train the RES to eat pellets even if I had to grow them out in baskets.

Does this scenario have any chance of working?

I appreciate the help this site offers. I have learned quite a bit already and have time to further my pond knowledge.

Thanks for all that you do to help newbies like me!

Fish Food

edit..you have to scroll up a little if you copy and paste the google map to see the V.

Last edited by Fish Food; 10/25/14 01:51 AM.

Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.
Fish Food #390540 10/25/14 04:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
1. The TFS would survive most winters. I don't recall the temp that will kill them. But they really won't be all that dependable.

2. No. They would probably support enough fry but not of the proper size for LMB. They need food that is 1/4 to 1/3 their body size. It's a matter of calories obtained vs energy expended.

3. Yes but very few. Actually, about 99% of eggs laid and fry hatched never live to sexual maturity due to predation.

Good luck on training redears and keeping them trained.

The scenario has no chance of working. Redears only spawn annually and cannot provide enough food for bass. Remember that the bass will also be spawning.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Fish Food #390548 10/25/14 08:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
F
OP Offline
F
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
TFS as per Mr. Lusk's ABC's of Forage Fish die when the water temperature falls below 42 degrees.

What would TFS make ideal forage for?

So Bluegill really is the only forage fish prolific enough to keep up with LMB.

RES had rather search the bottom looking for snails to crunch than line up for a pellet buffet. That's very interesting.


Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.
Fish Food #390551 10/25/14 09:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,111
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,111
Likes: 478
One of the big problems with using pellet trained RES is their recruitment does not or rarely eats pellets. Thus when the original stockers die out a big majority of remaining population are not pellet eaters unless you do annual supplemental stocking of pellet trained RES. The same problem occurs but to a lesser degree with yellow perch depending on history of domestication of brood stock.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Fish Food #390566 10/25/14 11:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
F
OP Offline
F
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
As per Mr. Davidson very few if any RES fry live. In a LMB pond it appears to me that you grow out the RES before adding the LMB. So after catching out the initial RES you are looking at either growing out 1" - 3" RES in baskets or buying adult RES. Do most ponds have a snail population?


Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.
Fish Food #390571 10/25/14 11:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,417
Likes: 793
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,417
Likes: 793
I think you might be better off trying to grow 6#+ SMB instead of LMB. SMB will feed train and you won't have as many problems with them overeating your baitfish supply.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
esshup #390577 10/25/14 01:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
F
OP Offline
F
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
Don't recall anyone in Alabama ever having a SMB pond. This idea interests me! What would be the best forage fish? I really like the idea of bass that will pellet train. I read somewhere on here that you can build spawning structure for SMB. Don't get me wrong I don't dislike BG. They pellet train and are a lots of fun on UL tackle. Would the SMB be good with my warm water in the summer?


Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.
Fish Food #390580 10/25/14 03:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,417
Likes: 793
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,417
Likes: 793
It all depends on water quality. Arron Mateo grew some big SMB in Phoenix, Az. I doubt your water will be warmer than his. wink

Some forage fish for SMB that won't overpopulate a pond are RES, YP, GSH, FHM. I've seen the SMB wipe out populations of those forage fish, so it's a balance that you'll have to do between predator and prey. BG fecundity is too much for SMB to control them.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Fish Food #390582 10/25/14 05:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
Aaron threw copious TLC and cash at them and it worked where nobody thought it would.

BG are just about the only fish that can almost keep up with LMB spawning/predation. And that's only with culling.

Even then, I would start with 2,000 BG or CNBG and RES with an 80/20 mix per acre. Add about 3-5,000 fathead minnows to initial stocking. Stock bass a year later. After the 3rd year year, cull every bass under 14 inches. I always say that when a bass can go to sleep with its mouth open and wake up with a full belly, it's time to stock them.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Fish Food #390583 10/25/14 06:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,255
Y
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Y
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,255
You could definitely do SMB in N. Alabama. Steep pond edges lined with rock will give great SMB habitat, and minimize shallow water warming during the summer. Aeration will assist with water quality. Not sure YP will be able to reproduce [mine haven't], but you have a lot of other options for forage, including TFS, which would make spectacular SMB forage [though I'm not sure the smallies wouldn't wipe them out]. Golden shiners, lake chubsuckers, and possibly a very small, not highly fecund sunfish might all be possible as other forage sources. I wouldn't worry about spawning structure--they'll find a way to propagate, and a bigger concern over time is too much recruitment, and loss of forage base as a result. Smallies don't have the reputation for voracious feeding the way LMB do, but don't kid yourself, they'll put a huge dent in anything they really like and can handle, as Esshup noted. I have not been able to maintain or reestablish populations of crayfish, golden shiners, or TFS despite some good habitat. Some of your smallies will stay on pellets, and a few of your young smallies will self recruit, but my experience is that if you give them natural forage that they really like, in abundance, they'll take out a preferred forage first, then go to pellets, even if pellet trained.

esshup #390591 10/25/14 08:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
F
OP Offline
F
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
Originally Posted By: esshup
It all depends on water quality. Arron Mateo grew some big SMB in Phoenix, Az. I doubt your water will be warmer than his. wink

Some forage fish for SMB that won't overpopulate a pond are RES, YP, GSH, FHM. I've seen the SMB wipe out populations of those forage fish, so it's a balance that you'll have to do between predator and prey. BG fecundity is too much for SMB to control them.


I think that the springs would help with water quality. There is another spring that we used to pump water to my folks house until we got "city water". However it is pretty far from the site that I have in mind. I am guessing Arron did it with heavy aeration?

I like RES even if have to pellet train them and replace them every other year. I imagine with pellet feeding you could grow some really nice RES.

I think that TFS would be ok as far as temperature is concerned. Whats the chance of their production keeping up with the SMB? Thats if you keep the recommended number of SMB annually.


Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
F
OP Offline
F
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Aaron threw copious TLC and cash at them and it worked where nobody thought it would.

BG are just about the only fish that can almost keep up with LMB spawning/predation. And that's only with culling.

Even then, I would start with 2,000 BG or CNBG and RES with an 80/20 mix per acre. Add about 3-5,000 fathead minnows to initial stocking. Stock bass a year later. After the 3rd year year, cull every bass under 14 inches. I always say that when a bass can go to sleep with its mouth open and wake up with a full belly, it's time to stock them.


Would that apply to SMB?

I admire your testing the ducks webbed feet on BG eggs. You proved that it was not possible. It has to be flood events and their uncanny ability to survive.


Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.
Yolk Sac #390597 10/25/14 08:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
F
OP Offline
F
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
Originally Posted By: Yolk Sac
You could definitely do SMB in N. Alabama. Steep pond edges lined with rock will give great SMB habitat, and minimize shallow water warming during the summer. Aeration will assist with water quality. Not sure YP will be able to reproduce [mine haven't], but you have a lot of other options for forage, including TFS, which would make spectacular SMB forage [though I'm not sure the smallies wouldn't wipe them out]. Golden shiners, lake chubsuckers, and possibly a very small, not highly fecund sunfish might all be possible as other forage sources. I wouldn't worry about spawning structure--they'll find a way to propagate, and a bigger concern over time is too much recruitment, and loss of forage base as a result. Smallies don't have the reputation for voracious feeding the way LMB do, but don't kid yourself, they'll put a huge dent in anything they really like and can handle, as Esshup noted. I have not been able to maintain or reestablish populations of crayfish, golden shiners, or TFS despite some good habitat. Some of your smallies will stay on pellets, and a few of your young smallies will self recruit, but my experience is that if you give them natural forage that they really like, in abundance, they'll take out a preferred forage first, then go to pellets, even if pellet trained.


I currently live in Huntsville Alabama and we get some pretty long cold snaps. If your TFS survive 70 miles north of Huntsville I am pretty sure they would be fine in central Alabama. I would definitely have to strictly manage the SMB for it to have a chance at staying balanced. Yeah I get it. Its like offering me a steak or spam. Can you describe or give me links as to how your pond is set up?


Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.
Fish Food #390670 10/26/14 01:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
F
OP Offline
F
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 163
I have been mulling over all of the input from the members.

Scenario #1 - A SMB and RES pond. Pellet train both. The SMB would feast on RES recruits in the spring and eat pellets once they were gone. As the RES mature and are caught out replace them with adult pellet trained RES. The unknown factor is what native fish reside in the branch. I know that it has crayfish, minnows and at least one species of bream. If this happens to be little BG it blows the whole thing.

Scenario #2 - Same as above but add another forage species. I don't think YP are a viable option for various reasons. GSH is a possibility. I haven't read one thread where FHM survived the initial onslaught to maintain a healthy population. Maybe this is due to more posts on LMB and HSB. Why do TFS not work in this scenario?

It occurred to me that whatever forage that occupies that branch has a much better chance of survival because they have had to. Pond raised minnows, crayfish etc. have never been hunted. I need to find out whats in that branch before planning any further.

Thanks to everyone for your help!


Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
cro, HC1968
Recent Posts
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by Bill Cody - 03/28/24 07:15 PM
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by Boondoggle - 03/28/24 06:45 PM
Working on a .5acre disaster, I mean pond.
by PRCS - 03/28/24 06:39 PM
Fungus infection on fish
by nvcdl - 03/28/24 06:07 PM
Can anyone ID these minnows?
by Dylanfrely - 03/28/24 05:43 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/28/24 04:48 PM
Yellow Perch Spawn 2024
by H20fwler - 03/28/24 04:29 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by LANGSTER - 03/28/24 03:49 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by esshup - 03/28/24 10:39 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by Freg - 03/28/24 09:42 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by Justin W - 03/28/24 08:19 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5