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Just put in a new pond so looking for advice and direction. The new pond is just shy of an acre and when filled would be 14 feet in the deepest region (having a couple of springs feeding it). It surrounds on three sides an older tiny pond I have had for 25 years that was great for the kids to catch a bass now and again. The new pond will come up and over into the old pond once it reaches 13 feet so the two ponds will then be joined or better described as the big one will consume the little one.

Having lost my son a few years back, I now have a little grandson to help fill the empty hole that was left in my heart and I want him to have a paradise to fish (prefer but not limited to LMB), canoe, ice skate, ice fish, and swim so he isn't setting in front of a hand held electronic device watching life pass him by. Starting early is the key - I have pictures of him trying to fish at just 13 months old out of his stroller - will post them sometime.

I am in the Finger Lakes of NY and we have already had frost a couple of nights. Definitely things are different for me here than many of you in warmer climates but if someone could point me in the right direction for some help on getting this pond off on the right foot it would be appreciated. I am sure there are many questions to get to that answer so ask and I will try to answer.

I am starting to make some artificial structure from what I already learned here.

Some of my questions are:

1) Where can I find a list of all the abbreviations used here? I can decipher some things like LMB and BG but there are a lot used and some I still haven't figured out when I am reading (I am sure I will feel like an idiot once I see what they stand for).

2) What would be the best forage fish (and how many) if the goal is medium to large size bass? I say medium as I want enough fish in there so the grandson doesn't get bored trying to catch just a few lure shy big bass but I don't want it over run with little bass. Maybe the BG or other specie (??) would be available to keep him happy?

3) I prefer to catch the bass from other places and stock the pond that way. I have learned already that it will have to wait until I get bait established. I am also planning to tag the bass to follow their growth (just a neat extra for the grandson to see and be part of). We have great fishing here and I can usually get a few 2-4 pound with the rare 5 lb LMB on any given day fishing other ponds and lakes here. If what I read is correct, I could sustain 100 lbs of prey fish so that would only be about 30 fish.

4) Due to the lay of the land I had available for the pond - it has very steep sides and 10-14 feet deep (they needed a lot of dirt to make up the dike so just kept going down until they got enough). I have read this may mean needing to aerate. More information on this would be helpful. I can get electric to the pond with a little cost and time if I need to. What happens int eh winter? Do you not run it or will it open up the ice? This would make for tough ice skating.

5) Again due to the steep sides (there is minimal shallow areas where the springs come in each side and the bank separating the two ponds) will spawning be an issue? For the bass and/or for the bait fish? They could always spawn int eh smaller pond once the two join each other.

6) Since it is spring fed and deep, can I stock some SMB? Is this not recommended? If not - what is the reason?


Overview of the pond from the house cupola.


View from driveway.


Right side facing east - note the small spring running - this is not leaking from the old pond - the old pond has not gone down. This area is also the spillway when the pond gets full.


Left side facing east. Note there is another spring that runs in on this side.

Thanks for the help,

Dan

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1)Link to Acronyms:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92442#Post92442

2) If there are bass in the smaller pond then establishing forage will be difficult no matter what you do. If it were me I would rotenone the small pond right now so your new pond starts with a clean slate. If you want to go with largemouth bass you will need to stock bluegill in good numbers to be the backbone of your forage base. If you want to go with smallmouth then do not stock bluegill as smallmouth cannot control bluegill with their smaller mouths. Ponds with smallmouth work well with golden shiners as the backbone of the forage base but other fish like lake chubsuckers/spotfin and satinfin shiners/banded killifish/yellow perch really help smallmouth ponds. Fathead minnows are cheap and multiply like crazy in the absence of predators, you should stock them first as they will help kickstart your pond before they are wiped out.

3) Again if there are bass in the small pond then establishing forage is not going to be easy or cheap. Best results are being seen stocking 30 bluegill for each largemouth. If you do intend to stock predators from other bodies of water then you will want your 30 bluegills per bass to be pretty big so they are not gobbled up instantly by a 2lb+ bass. Stocking a 2-5lb bass is not advised unless you have a really good population of big bluegill that can be your brood stock and resist predation. I have a smallmouth pond and I waited two years after stocking my forage fish to stock yellow perch and smallmouth, a year ago I stocked 7 smallmouth wild-caught that were between 7-10" and fat and then another 7 7-10" fat smallmouth this spring. I recently caught a 15" smallmouth from the pond which tells me they are growing well. I didn't stock larger fish because I wanted to be sure that I had some big golden shiners that would not be eaten by my stocked fish. Keep in mind that stocking fish from other bodies of water can introduce disease and parasites into your pond.

4) My pond is laid out similarly to yours and I aerate it. I have one diffuser in 8-9' of water (pond is 13-14' at it's deepest) that we run in the late spring-summer and another in 3' that we run year round. The shallow diffuser keeps the surrounding area ice free and it seems to prevent the rest of the ice from being very thick in the wintertime.

5) The bass will find a place to spawn especially if you go with largemouth bass. From the pictures it does not look like your pond is an acre, I would estimate a half acre or less. If you want bigger fish then you probably don't want the bass spawning in a pond that size. If you want numbers of small easy-to-catch bass then creating some additional spawning habitat is a good idea. It sounds like your goals are numbers of 2-3lb fish which is a tough goal to meet in a pond that size. To do it you will need to catch and remove stunted fish, feed, and continually stock forage. A 3lb bass eats 30lbs of forage to get to 3 lbs so you see why numbers of 3lb bass are very hard to grow in a smaller pond.

6) Your pond looks like it will be a good smallmouth pond but you should add some rocky structure right away if you want to go that route. In a pond your size you having both smallmouth and largemouth is problematic as the largemouth will outcompete the smallmouth. You could have a largemouth pond and add in a few larger smallmouth for fun later on but you should not expect the smallmouth to sustain a population in the long run with largemouth present. You can also consider adding hybrid striped bass but they will probably need to be stocked from a dealer. If you want to see what I did for my smallmouth pond here is the thread: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=281556&page=1

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/24/14 11:16 AM. Reason: added link note

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Good advice so far from RMDAngler. He has some good experience and opinions.
For starters here is my initial input.
1. Your pond looks to be circular. To get a good idea of the true size or area of your pond and if it is one acre it will have a diameter of 236ft and a radius of 118ft. The circumference around the top rim should be 740-750ft(diaXpi). Use 3 foot strides to walk around the top rim and see what you get for a distance.

2. I do not think the patch of cattails surrounding the small pond will be beneficial when it becomes submerged. All this organic matter will decay and create black muck and phosphorus enrichment feeding nuisance algae and weeds. The dead cattail stems will not last long when covered with water. If water covers the cattails less than 4ft deep expect cattails to grow and expand around all the areas of the old pond less than 6 ft deep. I would use a herbicide to kill the cattails before the pond fills. The old pond basin will act as a sunken island but I would not want cattails growing in that region. IMO it will be a constant source of pond management problems later such as constantly seeding more nuisance cattails around the new pond perimeter. Blue and red native water iris, pickerel weed, lizard tail, variegated sweet flag, and several other shoreline plants are a much better shoreline plants than cattails. Cattails grow too deep (6ft), spread too fast, create too much organic fodder, and make the shoreline so you can see through them nor fish over them.
More opinions later.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/24/14 11:11 AM.

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Quote:
From the pictures it does not look like your pond is an acre, I would estimate a half acre or less.

Quote:
Your pond looks to be circular. To get a good idea of the true size or area of your pond and if it is one acre it will have a diameter of 236ft and a radius of 118ft. The circumference around the top rim should be 740-750ft(diaXpi). Use 3 foot strides to walk around the top rim and see what you get for a distance.


It is definitely an acre pond contrary to the look in the pictures. The acre estimate came from:

1) Measuring with a range finder and calculating as an ellipse. Calculates to .88 acres with this method.

2) Measuring from aerial view of my land and known landmarks I could measure from. This gave me .95 acre.

3) Just now checked with the perimeter pacing and got 268 paces. My stride is 34 inches so = 759 ft circumference = 1.05 acre. This was taken at the inner edge were the water will be not the outside of the dike.

All of the measuring is including the tiny pond since that will become part of the larger pond in the end.

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I cleaned out an old pond that was originally about a half acre and enlarged it to an acre in 2013. Not exactly but very similar to what you are doing.

I also had a small amount of water left in the old pond. There appeared to be minnows in the small puddle left but did not see anything else. Turns out there were green sunfish and bullheads, both of which caused me to abandon my original plans for the fish I was going to stock and are a source of ongoing management problems.

Here is my saga of leaving some of the old water. danger of leaving some old water

So I would echo one of the recommendations already given. Kill out whatever is left in your old pond and start fresh stocking what fish varieties and sizes you want. Don't be limited by what fish you already have in the old portion of the pond. I had certain nostalgic ideas of leaving some of the fish that came from a pond over 50 years old that I grew up with as a kid. The nostalgia was misplaced. If I had it to do over, I would have killed all of what was there and started fresh.

That is my suggestion. Looks like you will have a beautiful pond and you and your grandson will get great pleasure from it. Good luck with it and welcome to PBF.

Last edited by snrub; 10/24/14 12:12 PM.

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In a pond your size you having both smallmouth and largemouth is problematic as the largemouth. You can also consider adding hybrid striped bass but they will probably need to be stocked from a dealer.


OK - lets start here:

Rule out the SMB.

Start catching what I can out of the little pond (to eat) before I kill it off. (nostalgia makes this a tough one but I want the best new pond I can make). What is recommended to kill the cattails/fish and how/how much?

Look into an aerator - help please?

What bait fish and when should I stock? Pond is over 3 feet deep right now but not sure what would be there for them to eat right now.

If I am going to kill off the little pond - is there any reason not to pump water from the little one into the big one before killing? It would reduce the needed chemicals to kill it off and give the big one a jump start with micro "stuff" for the bait fish to eat - or bad idea?

Thanks,
Dan

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Don't pump the water from the old pond into the new. Trash pumps will transfer small fish. You would defeat the purpose of killing off the old pond. Kill it off, then just let the water of the new pond rise to meet the old.

That pond looks pretty small. You might be able to use hydrated lime to do the job and not need to hire someone to do it with restricted chemicals (not that there is anything wrong with doing it that way). The process involves "shocking" the water with a high enough level of Ph that the fish do not survive. There are old threads here on PBF describing the process. I have not done it personally though.


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Looking at the picture again, if you are not adverse of spending a modest amount of dollars, a professional pond management firm could spray your cattails and Rotenone your pond likely all in one trip. Done and fixed.


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Okay we have the pond area established. You can pump out the small pond into the big pond IF you strain the water coming out of the hose going into the new pond. Make a bag strainer out of fiberglass window screen about 3-5ft long. Longer of 6ft-10ft if using a big 4"-6" pump. Roll the screen into a cylinder, sew the long seem, then fold over the end and sew it closed. Sewing is preferably done at shoe repair shop although a regular sewing machine might do it. I have hand sown some of these bags with a large darning needle and monofilament fish line. Clamp the bag over the end of the discharge hose. Be very, very careful not to tear a whole in the filter bag while using it or all your work is wasted. I lay my filter bag on a plastic tarp so vibration from rushing water does not ware a hole in it. This filter bag works for all water pumping except when fish are spawning in our region. Fish eggs and fry will go through window screen. To filter eggs and fry during spawn seasons (NY early May - Aug) one needs screen twice as fine mesh as window screen: 500 micron. Ichthyoplankton (planktonic fish eggs and fry) are standardly sampled with nets of 500um mesh.

The cattail stand of stems in the small pond will be problematic to get fish killing chemical in among the dense weed stems for an effective complete kill unless you can get the water low enough to put all cattail growth on dewatered ground. To kill cattails use a glyphosate based aquatic approved herbicide such as Shore-Klear Plus (with surfactant) which is sold in quarts; dilute and spray. BE sure to get the one with Plus which includes the surfactant. You will likely occasionally need more once unwanted shoreline emergent weeds start infesting your new pond. It will also be good to wipe on any emerging cattail leaves that sprout above the water next year from the "sunken island" aka old pond. For wiping use a cotton glove over a rubber glove and dip gloved hand in chemical and wipe leaves.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/24/14 03:43 PM.

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Member Help Needed. What is the amount of hydrated lime needed to kill fish including GSF & BH? Let's assume 1000gal of water. When I renovate I always use rotenone PrenFish toxicant or similar. I don't trust hydrated lime but some use it successfully for small water puddles.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/24/14 03:34 PM.

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OK - I will try to catch a few bass for the wife (she loves it and I rarely bring them home to eat). She is also excited to hear that I will need to cull out some fish from the big pond when things get established. I always put them back but realize that is a mistake depending on what you are doing with he pond.

Then I will check with the neighbor on a big pump and make a filter of screen.

Pump down the little pond as far as I can and kill what is left. I would guess I should do this soon rather than in the spring? Or is waiting until ice out in the spring a better time?

Can bait fish be introduced now or would that be better in the spring?

What bait fish is recommended? BG of course but can crappie be introduced or not recommended? Others? Perch? - again the main goal is some nice bass but some variety if it doesn't cause problems is OK with me.

Thanks again for all the help!

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I would pump now because you may get heavy rains and the whole pond fills before Apr-May of 2015. In NY not much benefit to adding forage fish in fall since they will grow very little if any before Apr2015. Broodstock FHM and shiners are usually larger in spring fish sales. Plus the water in the new pond will culture and develop natural zooplankton and invertebrate populations as a buffet for fish introduced in spring. Adding filtered old pond water to new pond water will help seed the new pond with plankton, etc.

Focus on what needs to be done now and "get er done". Use winter to study fish combination options and formulate the stocking - management plan.

The old small pond does not look very big. How many fish esp bass a sizes can it have in it????. It would be a VERY good idea to inventory all fish and their sizes that come out of it to get a good idea of the carrying capacity of the new pond and what to expect from the new pond. You might be surprised what is actually in the old pond based on what you have historically put in it! This info would be good for all members to read and have documented.


Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/25/14 09:27 AM.

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The small pond is probably less than .4 acre feet.

It has a small spring in the bottom but I can probably pump it nearly dry if I go rent a trash pump.

If the water level gets below the cattails - will I still be able to treat them?

I should probably get whatever is need to treat before I pump it down so it doesn't fill back up much before I can treat it. What would I need and where to get it?

Here is what I have in the little pond to deal with:





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Small pond is a definite weed problem. I doubt that you will be able to kill all those cattails with one treatment application. You will likely see some regrowth when the new pond is full. It looks like you also have some submerged weed growth. Your question was:"I should probably get whatever is need to treat before I pump it down so it doesn't fill back up much before I can treat it. What would I need and where to get it?" Are you referring to treating the cattails or fish?


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Both Bill. I can also rent a backhoe and dig some of them out if it would help but in the past, when I did that, it looked great for one season and then they came back stronger than if I had left them alone. I could treat them now and then again in the spring.

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The cattail biomass will cause excess DO loss esp during winter as they decompose over the next 2-3 yr period. IMO spray them asap so the herbicide gets translocated into the roots which may take 10-20days. Then I would remove by any of various means as much leaf and or root biomass as possible. Be prepared to wipe and kill any sprouting cattails next year & the year after. Cattails are best killed systemically after they emerge and are at mid summer when moving fluids from leaves to the roots (storage) and not from roots to leaves as in early spring growth stages. Your cattail mess is why I hate cattails and do not allow them to be established. They can take over relatively quickly. There are much better habitat plants for smaller ponds (<5ac) than cattails. Cattails are good for pollution remediation, large wetlands, and lakes.

Your prior digging / removal did not work well because you did not first apply a systemic herbicide, allow it to translocate, and then use herbicide to eliminate any new regrowth.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/26/14 09:58 AM.

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^^^^ What he said. wink

In my pond, I fight cattails on a monthly/yearly basis, even though I dug them all out when I renovated the pond in 2009. They are in the ditches around here, and it seems the seeds can float 1/2 mile or so on the wind. Every month I go around the pond with a sprayer with a pond approved glyphosate mix and douse any that want to volunteer.


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Looks like there are a few choices for the spray. I found this: Rodeo Aquatic Herbicide Glyphosate-5 Gallon for $185 shipped.

That should do me for a couple applications. I will spray as soon as I get it and let it start working then drain down the pond and let the roots freeze (don't know if that will help or not - thought I read somewhere it can't hurt), then dig them out in the spring and treat whatever comes back after that.

So, we have a plan for the cattails.

What is recommended to kill off the fish (after I catch a few for eating)?

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NOTE: the Rodeo needs to have a proper surfactant (adjuvant) added to it so it properly penetrates the leaves.

Question was: "What is recommended to kill off the fish (after I catch a few for eating)?" We covered this already. Go back and read Snrub's (1:36pm) and my post on Oct 24.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/26/14 06:37 PM.

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For more reading on how to renovate a pond without rotenone see these links that I found by searching.
Hydrated lime
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=300154

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=386504

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=383641

Hydrated lime and green walnut hulls – husks. Black Walnuts are readily available now wherever there are the trees. It was a good year for black walnut production.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=228909

Bleach will work but some consider it risky in terms of environmental effects. Trihalomethanes have to be monitored by water treatment plants to insure they are not too high after chlorine treatment.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=149891

Google rotenone fish toxicant for all sorts of information about it. Just FYI contact a local pond management company to see how much they charge to kill the low water pool of the pond. Contact local game warden or DNR for info about closest place that deals with or applies rotenone the fish toxicant.

If you only have bass and BG in the old pond these species should kill pretty easily with hydrated. Catfishes, bullheads, and green sunfish are resistant, may be harder to kill and need higher dosages.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/29/14 01:38 PM.

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I have been pumping down the old pond and filtering into the new pond. Works like a charm with the screen as you suggested.

I am amazed at the mess I have in the old pond.

Also - a prime example of what you have described many times here - the below picture was once an 18 inch over 4 pound bass that is now about 2 pounds.


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Body condition of the bass is discussed below. That skinny, poor body condition bass is an example of what can and often does happen when larger bass are moved from their home grow-up pond where they thrived to a different pond with a different food web and now that fish does poorly sometimes very poorly. Anglers rarely fully understand the full concept of aquatic food web so it makes perfect sense to transfer a nice sized bass to their favorite pond where the dandy fish should get even bigger. The new fish not only has to adjust to a new habitat, but also has to compete with resident fish, plus over come the stress of capture and transport. Generally fish grow best and have the best chance of thriving if they grow and "develop" in a 'home' pond with a dynamic, healthy food web.

Originally if the bass above was 18" and weighted 4 lb 4 oz it had a Rw (Wr) of 129. 80-100 is normal. If the 'new' bass is still 18" and now weighs 2 lb it has a body condition of 61.

As a reminder of my earlier suggestion: "How many fish esp bass and their sizes can it have in it????. It would be a VERY good idea and educational to inventory all fish and their sizes that come out of it to get a good idea of the carrying capacity of the new pond and what to expect from the new pond. You might be surprised what is actually in the old pond based on what you have historically put in it! This info would be good for all members to read and have documented." Thanks for the extra effort of taking an inventory of the old pond.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/28/14 09:02 PM.

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Are you going to dig it out at all while the water is out? Might be a good time to scrape it out.

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Just a quick update - I got the old pond pumped out and treated the cattails (and cut a few) just before the ice showed up. I figured that once the ice came in, I would cut off the rest of the cattails and then treat anything that emerged in the spring with Rodeo.

What I didn't plan on was the spring continuing to re-fill the pond and it is now back to it's original level and frozen over. The large pond is also iced over and the springs are still running so we are at 6 1/2 feet now with single digit temps.

I have some structure made but not placed where I want it yet and supplies to make more but no ambition to go out in 10 degree weather to make it. Also have things almost figured out for the aeration system I want.

In the spring, I will again pump out the small pond and try to get someone in to clean out weeds, muck, and cattails with equipment.

Currently looking into how I need to stock it. Planning on BG as soon as temps allow and try to establish those for good feed for some LB next year.

I am considering Crappie and Perch but not sure if this is a good idea. I read pros and cons. My goal is to have some nice bass for adults to catch occasionally and "fish" in general for my grandson to learn on and enjoy - he is 1 1/2 now and got his first fishing pole for Christmas.

Joined: Jun 2007
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10x...Sounds like a decent plan. Cattails will grow from the roots also, so digging is the best removal method.

I am guessing that since you have read about the difficulties in Crappie management, about the only "pro" I can see is that they are fun to catch. If you want a few big bass, an overpopulation of Crappie could be a good management strategy, because eventually, there will be few LMB that survive a spawn to grow...

Yellow perch will provide a great forage for LMB, though it would be very difficult to sustain a population with LMB.

Congrats on the youngin's new pole....It will be fun to watch the first cast/catch!



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