Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Help Needed

The pond I am trying to help some friends with is approximately 1 acre. The first pond was constructed then later the previous owner built a second pond and connected the two forming an elongated figure eight. The first part has an aerator. The pond has not been limed or fertilized for at least 10 years. The pond turned over a few years ago. The southern long side of the pond has a mature tree line shading about half of the pond from fall until spring.The pond also has leaves on the bottom from 17 years of the hardwoods shedding. It was a largemouth/bluegill pond and a buddy of the previous owner brought some catfish to add to the mix.

The Problems: Most of the pond in the summer is plagued by southern naiad. The weeds are probably getting plenty of nutrition from the leaves on the bottom. The owners added four grass carp a few years ago and it didn't help. Since they haven't seen the carp since I am assuming that they died. The largest bass that I have seen is at best 18". Almost all of the bass that you catch are around 12". Fishing for bluegill with live redworms you catch a few 7" - 8" fish and a few 4"-6" fish. If you walk along the bank you can see a lot of small bluegills and what I call branch minnows. This appears to be an overcrowded bass pond but these fish aren't easy to catch like in most overcrowded bass ponds.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

What have you been using to fish for the LMB?

1/8 oz. curly tail jig, small floating rapala, 5" plastic shad jerk bait, 6" straight tail plastic worm carolina rig, 1/8 oz. beetle spin

I am a ultralight enthusiast. It really hurt me to have to go to a heavier rod so I could set the hook with the soft plastic baits.

Try these:

http://www.livetargetlures.com/products/freshwater/bluegill-wake.php

http://www.livetargetlures.com/products/freshwater/bluegill-square.php

The smaller of each size. 6 lb test will work fine.

If that doesn't work, catch a 3" Bluegill, and fish it under a bobber to see if you get a bass.

Do me a favor. Next LMB that you catch from there that is 12" or larger, get an accurate length and weight and post it. I can figure out the relative weight and it can be determined from that if the fish are stunting or not.

Thank you for your help!

The bass are healthy. I would go as far to say in general they are on the chunky side.

I generally catch about 2 bass per hour of fishing. This seems like a low number if there are too many.

The next 12"+ fish that I catch I will record length and weight. I have been measuring the fish so the 12" average is close.

I will go over there in a bit and get some real numbers for you.

3 LMB

#1 14" 1 LB 7.2 OZ. Never caught a fish this big in this pond before
#2 12" 14.6 OZ. Average fish
#3 11" 9.2 OZ.

Tried to catch #4 until a bad storm blew in. The pouring rain was blowing in sideways under their large covered gazebo. Needless to say I got soaked. At least I had fun doing it!

1) RW (or WR) 14" LMB that weighs 1# 7.2 oz or 1.45 pounds. 103.5% WR 100% is average, so it's neither stunted or exceptional.
2) 12" LMB 14.6 oz .9125# 114% WR It is getting plenty to eat.
3) 11" 9.2 oz. My RW chart starts at 12", and the fish at 12" should be .8 pound or 12.8 ounces.

It's hard to see a trend from a sample size of 1, but you get the idea. Catch more and report, or take a look at the relative weight chart yourself. http://www.fish.state.pa.us/images/pages/fishin1/weightlength3.pdf

With the small sample size, I hate to make a recommendation on whether the pond is LMB stunted or not. But, from the size of the BG that you say are in there, I'm leaning towards saying that it's in the beginning stage of stunting. The LMB weigh enough to get to 14", maybe an inch or so longer, but then they have to expend more calories catching food than they are getting per mouthful. If the 14" or larger LMB are running under 100 RW, then I'd start by removing 30# of LMB 11" or larger this year per surface acre.

esshup.. I did RW tables for quite a few species and started many of them at smaller size. The citation for source is in the first post.

Thread in Q&A is here: RW tables

and for an 11" LMB, .68lbs.

That is a nice useful table. Had not seen it. Thanks.

I didn't see it either. That's a nice table! Thanks for posting it. I've got it bookmarked now.

I will have to gather more information so you can get a better idea of whats going on. I will suck it up and go catch more bass.

I will also consult with the owners and see which way they want to go. From previous conversations they have kids over quite often and mentioned catching bluegill from the dock.

3 LMB

#1 14" 1.45 lbs 103.5% Average
#2 12" .9125 lbs 114% Getting plenty to eat
#3 11" .575 lbs 85% Stunted??

4 LMB

#4 15" 1.5375 lbs 84% Stunted??
#5 14" 1.1125 lbs 75% Stunted??
#6 13" .9 lbs 77% Stunted??
#7 12" .6375 lbs 70% Stunted??

Maybe with one more trip the picture will become clear?

Generally any fish with a Rw of less than 85 is not getting enough food for good or rapid growth and probably due to there are too many bass eating too many small fish. Advice is usually to remove those with Rw less than 85 so remaining bass have more food available and they get fatter and grow faster. However,,,,,, if the goal is to have kids easily catch fish then having extra hungry bass with low Rw in the pond is a good thing. Maybe this is why it is so easy for you to catch bass for your samples?? Think about it.

From what you are saying and I am seeing the bass don't have enough bluegill to eat. The bluegill that I catch are mostly over 5" and not a large number of them. Simply not enough of the bluegill are surviving to have a healthy bluegill population. If I am fishing for bluegill with a #10 hook and live red worms and I am catching more bass than bluegill there is a shortage of bluegill. If they want a balanced pond X lbs of bass should be removed and 4"? bluegill should be stocked to bring things back into balance. I am not sure of the size of bluegill that the bass won't try to eat. If this is correct how many bluegill need to be added?

Thanks for your help!

It is often referred to here that a LMB will eat BG 1/3 its length. So if you have 14" LMB, you should stock 5" or longer BG. However, I would harvest LMB first, then stock BG if necessary. Otherwise a lot of what you stock might just be expensive LMB food. Heck, harvest enough LMB and you may not have to stock any BG.

Warning: you are talking about changing the dynamics of the pond. Better check with the owners to make sure that really is what's wanted.

Thank you for your reply!

Will check with the owners this weekend. They are all for getting it back in shape. From our talks I don't think that they are interested in trophy bass or bluegill. Just a pond where you can fish from the dock with a cork and catch fish.

That's the kind with the lowest stress.

I am going to guess that its the easiest to maintain also. Continue manual weed removal. Lime the pond this winter. Fertilize the pond in early spring. This is after removing some LMB and adding some adult 5" BG to get the pond back in balance. Both of the owners are very busy so I am guessing this is the option that they will like best. I will ask them this weekend.

FWIW, general rule of thumb. a single LMB needs to eat 10# of BG to add 1# in weight. In a balanced pond, removing around 20# of LMB per surface acre will keep it that way, but the only way to know for sure is to monitor the RW of the LMB you are catching and keep a log.

In ponds, BG are about the only fish that has enough fecundity that can keep up with LMB predation, and that's only if the LMB are managed (i.e. some are removed annually). LMB do the best when eating BG shaped fish that are 1/4 to 1/3 their body length. So, if the larger LMB are lower RW than the smaller ones, food that they grow the best on is lacking. Why? That's up to the pond manager to figure out.

Because LMB eat so much, it's recommended that LMB are removed from a LMB stunted pond rather than adding BG, unless the pond owner has deep enough pockets to afford the correct amount and sized BG. Then you have the issue of carrying capacity to watch if their pockets are deep enough.

Before you lime and fertilize, get the water tested to make sure you need it. Test for alkalinity, and hardness, not just pH. You might have enough nutrients in the pond, and by removing the weeds you will free up those nutrients for a plankton bloom. Having to add more fertilize is much better than adding too much.......

One of the owners is a structural engineer for NASA. They want to fix the pond and spending some money to do it doesn't seem to be an issue. I am assuming the correction process still begins with removing 30 lbs of skinny bass?

That's a good start!!!

For your fishing with red worms and a No 10 hook under a bobber in a balanced general fishing BG-LMB pond, I have found that you should be catching about 10-15 BG for every bass; bare minimum 6BG to 8BG for every LMB any size - using your method. Fewer bluegill than 5 or 8:1 bass usually results in larger average sized BG and smaller bass. This ratio also seems to work pretty good for most panfish : predator communities.

I sat down with the owners this morning and we had a good talk. The verdict is a balanced bass/bluegill pond. I told them about the members here and how helpful everyone here has been. I am going to do my best to catch 30 lbs of bass before the weather gets too cold for me. The bass must have heard the ice water sloshing around in my cooler since I only got one bite (didn't get the hook set) in three hours of fishing. Thats the first time that I have gotten skunked fishing in that pond.

I have managed to catch 2 lbs of skinny bass so far. These blue sky sunny days are not helping. I am learning about the pond however. When the fish in general aren't biting the few fish that are biting are in the shallow water on each end. Need a good front to move in.

I just finished bass fillet sandwiches for lunch. Much better than I remember. White, flaky flesh with no real fishy taste. Thanks to the board for the freezing the fish in a icy brine mix tip!

30 lbs by the end of the year is a challenge for sure. I am going to do my best!

The soil there does need lime. They had it tested for their garden.

Plan in place:

1) Catch a lots of skinny bass.
2) Add lime this winter
3) Fertilize early next Spring
4) Add 200 5"+ bluegill or grow out 200 1" - 3" in baskets until they are large enough to release.

Will this work?

There will be a dilemma. Be aware that in one acre the intense fishing and removal of the most aggressive individuals will result in fewer and fewer being caught as time passes. The remaining bass will be relatively hook smart. Some of those will be rarely if ever caught. You are selectively harvesting the dumbest fish leaving behind the fish less likely to bite. Your angling skills will have to become refined as time passes. Generally the bass angling catch per unit effort (CPUE)will not improve until new individuals are added.