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Ken, if there was a "like" button, I'd use it on your post^.


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Originally Posted By: loretta
Fish food, that's a lot of ash too! As you know, ash is not a good thing. I understand you wanting to feed a more natural diet, I'm all for that, natural is always better, processed food is just convenient. Farmed fish are lower in Omega 3's than wild fish because of artificial feed and are not as beneficial for people to eat. Don't get me started on ethoxyquin (a preservtive) commonly found in fish feed. Purina also likes to use artificial vitamin K( menadione sodium bisulfate complex) in their foods, another controversial ingredient.

A long time ago I asked what everyone did with the fish that were culled from their ponds. I thought it would be great to grind them up and feed it back to the other fish. I'm not at the point where I need to cull fish but when I do I will certainly try to do something like this.


Hi Loretta,

I actually have a few formulas being made and sold as food for aquarium fish.

I came here to get some help with some friends pond and do some "out of the box" ideas on feeding pond fish.

The folks here have been very nice and helpful!

Clay

Last edited by esshup; 10/14/14 10:37 PM. Reason: deleted link per forum advertising rules

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Originally Posted By: catmandoo
I don't want to speak for Bruce Condello, but besides his massive "Condello Strain Bluegills" he has also been growing some monstrous largemouth bass. His LMB are way above what should be possible to be grow in his northern latitude. I will just say that it is based on his culled bluegill.

Bruce gave us all a hint of what he is doing in a short presentation at the last Pond Boss conference.


Ken, I was at Bruces this summer (remember when the crazy hailstorm hit Lincoln, NE? I was at Bruces place and it just missed us.) I hand fed some of the LMB in the pond behind his house. What you saw at the conference was nothing. The fish in the pond are doing MUCH better than what I think Bruce was hoping for. wink You know the pictures of the fat LMB from my pond? Mine are anorexic compared to his!! And that's all I'm saying about it. If Bruce wants to add more, it's up to him. grin


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My apologies esshup. That link was not mean't to be advertising.


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It wasn't taken that way, but as a mod I have to apply the rules as evenly as I can.

I've even moderated myself after reading a reply that I had typed and thinking "that wasn't nice". wink grin

Last edited by esshup; 10/14/14 11:10 PM.

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Thanks for doing your job!

The fish are the same but aquarium folks and pond folks generally have very different goals.

Aquarium people treat their fish like pets. What I make for aquarium fish is health food for fish. It contains plenty of protein and enough energy (starch and fat) for them to breed and live long healthy lives. Excess fat and starch leads to fatty liver condition which many biologists believe shortens the fish's lifespan. In a nut shell feeding our food makes them feel good about themselves. Fish are much easier to understand than humans. One of the reasons that I have a business partner is that if I believe that I will learn something beneficial I will net a live fish from the tank and dissect it immediately.

Pond fish are either mean't to be eaten or to be grown to trophy size. In either case you want fat fish. I spoke with the Head of Nutrition at Auburn's Fisheries Department about having some fish's livers dissected and examined about a year ago. He told me that they had caught catfish being fed grain based food from a pond and that they had fatty liver condition but were otherwise healthy. The point being fish mean't to be eaten it really doesn't matter.

Clay


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And as far as using culls as fish food I am all for it. I have considered catching skipjack herring below Guntersville Dam to make my own fish meal. Unfortunately they are to oily to use. It would get to be too much work and mess pressing the oil then trying to calculate whats left. Simply not worth it.


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I had a neighbor who worked in a grocery and brought me loves
of throw a way stale bread everyday. The fish loved it.


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FF, I'm confused. I've been watching this thread, and still don't know what your ultimate goals are. You said you've developed a homemade high protein mix, then talk about your business partner in this endeavor.

Are your ultimate plans for DIY home use, or for retail sale? If the raw ingredient costs are 80 cents a pound, wouldn't processing, packaging, distribution, etc. easily double or triple the cost per pound?

I'm not questioning your motives, just curious.


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I am here to get help for my friends pond and help anyone wanting to try a DIY pond fish food.

I debated on whether to mention my studies on fish nutrition. Most people don't like change and some resent me for suggesting that I can give them recipes better than Purina's.

I guess its time to put my money where mouth is and spend the $20 on a 50 lb bag of soybean meal. I have been thinking about how to start training the BG in my friends pond to eat a dough food. I can start with a small piece on the shallow end where I can see it on top of the leaf litter. Toss it in when I get there and net out any left when I leave.


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Fish...The site embraces change, unconventional thoughts, and options. Just because some here may disagree with your recipe being "better", or pointing out possible issues does not mean it is unappreciated. If I could find, or make a better, lower cost, more nutritious feed, I would buy or make it in a heartbeat. "Better", is a matter of personal interpretation.



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Lets take an unbiased look at the the waste passed from each formula. Keep in mind this only applies to a carnivore.

Revised Gamefish Grow

47.7% protein, 12.7% fat, 20.2% starch, 3.7% fiber, 15.7% ash

Purina Aquamax Grower 500

41.3% protein, 12% fat, 31.7% starch, 4% fiber, 11% ash

Protein Waste: Gamefish 47.7 x .88 digestible protein = 42.3
47.7 - 42.3 = 5.3% waste

Aquamax 41.3 x .94 digestible protein = 38.8
41.3 - 38.8 = 2.4% waste

All fat is either used for energy or stored

Starch Waste: Gamefish 20.2 - 20 = .2% waste

Aquamax 31.7 - 20 = 11.7% waste

All Fiber is passed Gamefish 3.7% waste

Aquamax 4% waste

Ash is used at around 7% - 8% Gamefish 15.7 - 7.5 = 8.2% waste

Aquamax 11 - 7.5 = 3.5% waste

Total Waste: Gamefish 17.4% waste Aquamax 21.6% waste

I am still not happy with Gamefish. The protein waste is too high for my liking. Need to switch to a fish parts meal to get the protein digestibility up and the ash down.


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Originally Posted By: Rainman
Fish...The site embraces change, unconventional thoughts, and options. Just because some here may disagree with your recipe being "better", or pointing out possible issues does not mean it is unappreciated. If I could find, or make a better, lower cost, more nutritious feed, I would buy or make it in a heartbeat. "Better", is a matter of personal interpretation.


Thank You! I am used to and welcome criticism. It only makes what I am trying to do better.


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I have an idea on how to control the feeding of a dough type food. Take a 10' piece of 1" conduit with a bend or fitting on one end. Get a piece of rope, a used mesh potato bag and a concrete block. Put the dough in the mesh bag and close it. Cut a length of rope to suspend the bag from the end of the conduit so the dough is just under the surface. Put a concrete block on the end of the conduit on your dock to hold it in place.

You get to see the fish feed, control how long they feed and put any uneaten dough in a plastic bag for your next feeding. How about that!!


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Revised Gamefish Grow Fish Meal

49.2% protein, 18.2% fat, 20.9% starch, .8% fiber, 10.9% ash

Purina Aquamax Grower 500

41.3% protein, 12% fat, 31.7% starch, 4% fiber, 11% ash

Protein Waste: Gamefish 49.2 x .91 digestible protein = 44.7
49.2 - 44.7 = 4.4% waste

Aquamax 41.3 x .94 digestible protein = 38.8
41.3 - 38.8 = 2.4% waste

All fat is either used for energy or stored

Starch Waste: Gamefish 20.9 - 20 = .9% waste

Aquamax 31.7 - 20 = 11.7% waste

All Fiber is passed Gamefish .8% waste

Aquamax 4% waste

Ash is used at around 7% - 8% Gamefish 10.9 - 7.5 = 3.4% waste

Aquamax 11 - 7.5 = 3.5% waste

Total Waste: Gamefish 9.5% waste Aquamax 21.6% waste

That's better. Waiting on fish meal prices from my local co-op. This formula is closer to the Purina 50% protein food.


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Originally Posted By: Fish Food
Revised Gamefish Grow Fish Meal

49.2% protein, 18.2% fat, 20.9% starch, .8% fiber, 10.9% ash

Purina Aquamax Grower 500

41.3% protein, 12% fat, 31.7% starch, 4% fiber, 11% ash

Protein Waste: Gamefish 49.2 x .91 digestible protein = 44.7
49.2 - 44.7 = 4.4% waste

Aquamax 41.3 x .94 digestible protein = 38.8
41.3 - 38.8 = 2.4% waste

All fat is either used for energy or stored

Starch Waste: Gamefish 20.9 - 20 = .9% waste

Aquamax 31.7 - 20 = 11.7% waste

All Fiber is passed Gamefish .8% waste

Aquamax 4% waste

Ash is used at around 7% - 8% Gamefish 10.9 - 7.5 = 3.4% waste

Aquamax 11 - 7.5 = 3.5% waste

Total Waste: Gamefish 9.5% waste Aquamax 21.6% waste

That's better. Waiting on fish meal prices from my local co-op. This formula is closer to the Purina 50% protein food.


Fish Food, do you have a nutrient analysis for the Aquamax or did Purina disclose the % of digestible protein to you? I have contacted them before and I know how stingy they are with specific information. I'm just wondering where your data is coming from, also the digestible value for your Gamefish grow meal.

How do you know fish will utilize 20% of the starch? I'm a dog food foodie and know a little bit about nutrition for dogs but really nothing about fish. I would like to learn more, do you have a reference for this?

I think adding more protein might not make a difference to the fish. I found this article that says rainbow trout showed no growth differences when fed diets with protein contents of 41% and 56.5%. If there are no growth differences then the fish aren't utilizing all the digestible protein they are fed. The abstract says "These results indicate that the limit to which rainbow trout can metabolize protein to increase growth may have already been reached, and that any future increases in protein in commercial feeds may not affect the growth rates."

What the fish don't utilize becomes waste. So, the feed with the higher protein content will have more wasted protein. Protein waste is expensive waste. This may be why Purina chooses to use the amount of protein they do.

You can find this interesting article here: http://www.wisconsinaquaculture.com/Docs/Purina_Rainbow_trout_feed_study-Becca_Philipps-2010.pdf


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Loretta...I will write a detailed response to your questions in the morning. I appreciate your interest.


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What I want to know when deciding on a feed is where the ingredients are sourced. I know in dog food this is important if quality is a concern. The quality or lack of quality for ingredients can make a huge difference when it comes to nutrition. I don't trust anything from China and a lot of cheap bulk vitamins are sourced from China.

The idea of a homemade diet for fish is great but another feed with processed (rendered) ingredients doesn't excite me. Fresh is better. I want a recipe for fresh (or frozen) fish food. wink







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Clay, have you ever had your food analyzed? If not, it would be interesting to see how close your calculations match up with actual values. I've used Midwest Laboratories before to analyze some dog food and they are pretty reasonable. I would look for a package that includes the values your interested in or you can order tests individually.

Here's a link to some of their individual tests:
https://www.midwestlabs.com/individual-pet-food-analysis/


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It is my understanding that a high protein feed damages the liver of catfish. So, all fish do not metabolize in the same way.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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Originally Posted By: loretta
Originally Posted By: Fish Food
Revised Gamefish Grow Fish Meal

49.2% protein, 18.2% fat, 20.9% starch, .8% fiber, 10.9% ash

Purina Aquamax Grower 500

41.3% protein, 12% fat, 31.7% starch, 4% fiber, 11% ash

Protein Waste: Gamefish 49.2 x .91 digestible protein = 44.7
49.2 - 44.7 = 4.4% waste

Aquamax 41.3 x .94 digestible protein = 38.8
41.3 - 38.8 = 2.4% waste

All fat is either used for energy or stored

Starch Waste: Gamefish 20.9 - 20 = .9% waste

Aquamax 31.7 - 20 = 11.7% waste

All Fiber is passed Gamefish .8% waste

Aquamax 4% waste

Ash is used at around 7% - 8% Gamefish 10.9 - 7.5 = 3.4% waste

Aquamax 11 - 7.5 = 3.5% waste

Total Waste: Gamefish 9.5% waste Aquamax 21.6% waste

That's better. Waiting on fish meal prices from my local co-op. This formula is closer to the Purina 50% protein food.


Fish Food, do you have a nutrient analysis for the Aquamax or did Purina disclose the % of digestible protein to you? I have contacted them before and I know how stingy they are with specific information. I'm just wondering where your data is coming from, also the digestible value for your Gamefish grow meal.



As you know Purina won't reveal anything they consider "secret". I used digestibility numbers from similar sources for the primary sources of protein in the foods.

Generic "Fish Meal" can be salmon, tuna, catfish or tilapia. This confuses things even further. The salesman in your area here can probably help you http://www.nutrablend.net/nutraBlend.Sales.aspx
Keep in mind all "fish meal" is preserved using ethoxyquin.

Tuna fish meal digestibility comparable to https://omeganutrient.com//wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Natural-Nautic.pdf

Chicken By-Product Meal
http://www.wcrl.com/products/product_spec_sheets/poultry_meal.htm

Soybean Meal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Digestibility_Corrected_Amino_Acid_Score


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Originally Posted By: loretta
Originally Posted By: Fish Food
Revised Gamefish Grow Fish Meal

49.2% protein, 18.2% fat, 20.9% starch, .8% fiber, 10.9% ash

Purina Aquamax Grower 500

41.3% protein, 12% fat, 31.7% starch, 4% fiber, 11% ash

Protein Waste: Gamefish 49.2 x .91 digestible protein = 44.7
49.2 - 44.7 = 4.4% waste

Aquamax 41.3 x .94 digestible protein = 38.8
41.3 - 38.8 = 2.4% waste

All fat is either used for energy or stored

Starch Waste: Gamefish 20.9 - 20 = .9% waste

Aquamax 31.7 - 20 = 11.7% waste

All Fiber is passed Gamefish .8% waste

Aquamax 4% waste

Ash is used at around 7% - 8% Gamefish 10.9 - 7.5 = 3.4% waste

Aquamax 11 - 7.5 = 3.5% waste

Total Waste: Gamefish 9.5% waste Aquamax 21.6% waste

That's better. Waiting on fish meal prices from my local co-op. This formula is closer to the Purina 50% protein food.


How do you know fish will utilize 20% of the starch? I'm a dog food foodie and know a little bit about nutrition for dogs but really nothing about fish. I would like to learn more, do you have a reference for this?


Carl Strohmeyer who has forgotten more about fish nutrition than I will ever know gave me the about 20% number. This came from a study done years ago. I didn't push him to dig out the source as he has health issues and is still trying to make a living in our tough economy. Read this article, Its very good and where I got my start making fish food. http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/quality_fish_food.html

I break fish out into three categories: Carnivores have short digestive tracts so they can extract the least amount of energy from starch. Omnivores have medium length digestive tracts which allows them to extract more energy from starch. Most fish considered scavengers are omnivores. Herbivores have very long digestive tracts which allows them to extract nearly all if not all of the energy from starch. Keep in mind that all fish are opportunistic feeders and will eat anything they can catch.


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Originally Posted By: loretta
Originally Posted By: Fish Food
Revised Gamefish Grow Fish Meal

49.2% protein, 18.2% fat, 20.9% starch, .8% fiber, 10.9% ash

Purina Aquamax Grower 500

41.3% protein, 12% fat, 31.7% starch, 4% fiber, 11% ash

Protein Waste: Gamefish 49.2 x .91 digestible protein = 44.7
49.2 - 44.7 = 4.4% waste

Aquamax 41.3 x .94 digestible protein = 38.8
41.3 - 38.8 = 2.4% waste

All fat is either used for energy or stored

Starch Waste: Gamefish 20.9 - 20 = .9% waste

Aquamax 31.7 - 20 = 11.7% waste

All Fiber is passed Gamefish .8% waste

Aquamax 4% waste

Ash is used at around 7% - 8% Gamefish 10.9 - 7.5 = 3.4% waste

Aquamax 11 - 7.5 = 3.5% waste

Total Waste: Gamefish 9.5% waste Aquamax 21.6% waste

That's better. Waiting on fish meal prices from my local co-op. This formula is closer to the Purina 50% protein food.


I think adding more protein might not make a difference to the fish. I found this article that says rainbow trout showed no growth differences when fed diets with protein contents of 41% and 56.5%. If there are no growth differences then the fish aren't utilizing all the digestible protein they are fed. The abstract says "These results indicate that the limit to which rainbow trout can metabolize protein to increase growth may have already been reached, and that any future increases in protein in commercial feeds may not affect the growth rates."

What the fish don't utilize becomes waste. So, the feed with the higher protein content will have more wasted protein. Protein waste is expensive waste. This may be why Purina chooses to use the amount of protein they do.


Carnivores up to large juveniles/young adults benefit from the 50% protein food. From your source and other sources that I have read once carnivores are adults 40% protein is fine. Where do you put the 10% that you removed? You have already maxed or exceeded your starch. If your goal is putting weight on the fish the only option that doesn't lead to more waste is fat. As I stated earlier excess energy (starch, sugar and fat) leads to fatty liver condition and fat stored around the organs. At some point the fat covered cells in the liver begin dying. Once all of the cells die the liver shuts down and I am pretty sure you can figure out the rest. However this process does take quite some time to play out.


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Originally Posted By: loretta
What I want to know when deciding on a feed is where the ingredients are sourced. I know in dog food this is important if quality is a concern. The quality or lack of quality for ingredients can make a huge difference when it comes to nutrition. I don't trust anything from China and a lot of cheap bulk vitamins are sourced from China.

The idea of a homemade diet for fish is great but another feed with processed (rendered) ingredients doesn't excite me. Fresh is better. I want a recipe for fresh (or frozen) fish food. wink


I won't buy or use anything from Southeast Asia. You and me think alike when it comes to ingredients. Omega Protein whole fish meal caught or raised in the Gulf of Mexico. The only problem with getting Omega's ethoxyquin free meal is you have to buy 1.5 tons for them to make a run. In my aquarium fish food venture at this point I can't use that much before it goes bad. Did you know most paprika contains ethoxyquin?


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Originally Posted By: loretta
Clay, have you ever had your food analyzed? If not, it would be interesting to see how close your calculations match up with actual values. I've used Midwest Laboratories before to analyze some dog food and they are pretty reasonable. I would look for a package that includes the values your interested in or you can order tests individually.

Here's a link to some of their individual tests:
https://www.midwestlabs.com/individual-pet-food-analysis/


I have been talking about doing it for years so the answer is no. I am confident that with the information provided by the manufacturers it is close. However I am sure that due to variables the percentages vary slightly. Yes its sad I am too cheap to spend the $30 per test to get real numbers. lol


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