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I'm hitting the local "fish truck" (Farleys Arkansas Pond Stockers) to buy 100 of their "Coppernose Bluegills" this afternoon. They are going in a 4' sq. cage and we'll see how they fare over the winter. I'll see if I can get the largest ones that they have.
I'll ask them if they are pure florida CNBG, or a hybrid. If they know, I'll post their answer back here. I also have to ask if they are pellet trained or not, and if so, if they know what food they were fed.
I'll also ask how long they have been on the truck.
Anything else you pondmeisters would like to know?
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If possible, I would like to know if their HBG are created using their "CNBG" as breeding stock.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Are you going to be covertly video recording the whole thing?
I'd like to know if Jimmy Hoffa is on the truck somewhere....
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
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Great project esshup. If they live for you (and are actually Coppernose), the hundred I recently put in my sediment pond from Dunn's that are advertised as Coppernose should be ok too.
They looked like nice, healthy 1-3" (mostly 2") fish (this time, not so much last time but that is another story). I also got 200 RES from them to put in the same pond (they were free replacements for the crappy ones I got from them last time).
Let us know how it works out, and I will do the same. Fish were too small for my untrained eyes to tell they were CNBG or regular BG, but as they grow will try to catch some and take pictures.
Glad you are doing this and reporting the results.
Last edited by snrub; 10/09/14 01:32 PM.
John
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Well, the best laid plans of mice and men got scrubbed today.
They had what they called CNBG on the truck, the driver didn't know if they were pure or hybrid. BUT, the biggest fish in the tank was 1/2" long (and I'm being generous there). I have 1/4" mesh in the cage that I was going to put them in, and they would have just swam right out. The driver was honest and said he had no idea why they even put them on the truck, and that 100 fish he could hold in one hand and he was right. He said that the LMB in the tank in the truck could have a field day eating the CNBG if they were stocked in the pond together, he joked that even the FHM that he had could eat 'em.
I inquired about RES, they weren't pellet trained, and the biggest one was about 1" in length.
So, since that was the last delivery of the year up here, I'll pre-order them next year and see if I can get some that are 3" long or so.
Tony, as far as he knew, the HBG were not made using the CNBG stock. He said that stocking HBG with LMB wouldn't result in enough offspring for the LMB.
As far as he knew I was just another pond owner.
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Thanks for the info Scott!
1/2" long????? They could've been anything!
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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I'll be in AR in a week or two and could easily snag some CNBG under 6"...I'm fairly sure that 2 week pre-entry permit can be had in a couple days now.
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If possible, I would like to know if their HBG are created using their "CNBG" as breeding stock. IIRC...that cross is called the Georgia Giant...or similar names now.
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Rex, I'd be happy with 3" fish! Just something to throw in a cage to over winter to see if they'd live. I was hoping to get some off of the truck, so I could see if they really do survive up here or they'd go belly up over the winter.
They looked like BG, but at that small of a size I don't know how to tell (or if you can) tell CNBG from Northern BG.
I can't believe they put ones that small on the truck. He said this spring he was selling out before he hit all his stops, and he'd have between 6,000 and 8,000 BG on the truck. That doesn't include HBG or RES.
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So I have to ask. Is there a approximate size that makes BG/CNBG/HBG have enough visual characteristics to make then identifiable?
Would 2 to 3 inches be enough?
AL
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I'm not sure! I was planning on growing them out until I could tell, which I'm assuming would be 6"-7" or so from the pictures that I've seen here. If there is a significant mortality over the winter, then I'd know for sure. I have some Condello strain BG in a cage now, and I could use those as a control.
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HBG are identifiable by three inches, usually by two. Not sure when CNBG begin to differentiate from northerns?
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Ok, fair enough. I'm still culling out of my brood pond, and I'm just not seeing any, what I think are, CNBG/GSF hybrids. I'll take some pics next week, and see what y'all think. The YOY CNBG look to be around 3".
I'll post this on new thread, but I'm not sure the GSF and CNBG even crossed.
As always, thanks guys.
AL
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I can tell HBG apart by 1". Now telling northern and CN BG apart, to be highly confident I would say 3"-4" in length. I doubt many of the "CNBG" being sold by most fish farms are pure CNBG anyway. They may very well be a high percentage of CNBG, but unlikely to be pure.
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I can generally tell HBG from other lepomis by 1/2" to 3/4". If the eye is carefully examined, there is a particularly malevolent gleam present that is easily distinguishable from the earnest, innocent visage of the unenhanced bream. Also, I've noticed that I become faintly nauseated when examining the HBG for more than a few minutes. I think they may release some type of perverse pheromone, but it could just be a psychological effect.
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I agree CJ. The test was to accomplish 2 things:
To see if the "Coppernose Bluegills" sold really were CNBG or some hybrid (would have to wait until they matured to see for sure) and if the "Coppernose Bluegills" that were sold would even survive up here. If they would survive, I wanted to know what percentage. I also wanted to see (if any) of the CNBG parents physical characteristics carried over to the adults if they would survive the winters here.
With fish that small, and not knowing for sure how many would stay in the cage, I wasn't willing to risk $69 on literally a cupped double handful of fish. ($0.69 each) If they would have been big enough to stay in the cage, they'd already be swimming in it.
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I can generally tell HBG from other lepomis by 1/2" to 3/4". If the eye is carefully examined, there is a particularly malevolent gleam present that is easily distinguishable from the earnest, innocent visage of the unenhanced bream. Also, I've noticed that I become faintly nauseated when examining the HBG for more than a few minutes. I think they may release some type of perverse pheromone, but it could just be a psychological effect. You've been around horses that could sense fear in an unexperienced rider? Same thing with HBG. It's a defense mechanism, designed to discourage those with less than honorable intentions. Not pointing fingers or anything.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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I wish I was good enough to tell HBG from northerns at the 1" stage.
Maybe I need better glasses.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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The guy I bought my HSB from today sells BG. He just calls them BG, but a friend bought some a few years back in the 3-4" range and they were certainly a high percentage CNBG. No signs of any of them showing up in the fishery, but they could have all become LMB food...
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This is one of my CNBG that were originally stocked from Florida CNBG. Occasional, and very light tail tipping. This is one of my Texas based OTS CNBG. White tipping on the anal and tail fin are very distinct, and on all of these I have caught.
AL
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Those fish are spectacular, Al. Well done!!
These differences in the CNBG brings to mind that whole mystacalis (peninsular Florida) vs, purpurascens (everywhere else) coppernose debate.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Thanks Tony. The top fish is an example of one of mine that I want to age. I want to find out if there's anything left in him, because his length should have allowed him to carry more weight than he did when this pic was taken.
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I am going to jump in here if OK with Tony and Al? Being close friend and neighbor with Al, we have shared experience and thoughts about our CNBG. IIRC, Al’s first photo was from a source that was caught and transported from one location in Florida. My information may be out of date but may still be relevant since I believe this strain of CNBG was stocked a number of years ago. Correct me if I am wrong Al! The bottom photo is an OTS CNBG and the identical strain of my OTS CNBG pictured below. I do not know all of Overton’s proprietary brood stock source, but since I participated in early selection of his brood stock, I do know they were transported from two separate areas in Florida. I believe that a third “pure” Florida CNBG has been added to the group. I follow Overton’s selection brood stock characteristics by culling all CNBG that do not meet Todd’s selection. Typical immature male CNBG: White/pearl fin tipping Few, broad vertical stripes Hint of copper on nose on immature males Difference in my photo and Al’s is primarily due to his pond water being much clearer than mine - our OTC CNBG fish are “brothers”. IMO, the strong characteristics of the OTS CNBG traits are by brood stock selection. Beautiful fish Al! George
Last edited by george1; 10/11/14 07:12 AM.
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...IIRC, Al’s first photo was from a source that was caught and transported from one location in Florida. My information may be out of date but may still be relevant since I believe this strain of CNBG was stocked a number of years ago. Correct me if I am wrong Al!... George, you are correct. The first CNBG is what I would call a legacy stocking, since they came from Bob Waldrop's brood stock. The initial stocking was 14 years ago. The OTS strain have not been in my ponds long enough to size match them to the legacy Florida based CNBG. My WAG is that the OTS will ultimately carry more weight per inch than the legacy CNBG. They are a much taller fish, and have that pie plate look that I'm after. Regional adaptation is a cool subject. esshup, take some of mine home with you (Florida, TX, or both) if you can't get a good CNBG source before February. At a dollar an inch, take all you want.
AL
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Is that the going rate for bluegill fillets? I'd have to be like some of the over the road truckers. A truck with 2 trailers behind it.
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Fascinating stuff to be sure. If changes in seal level, or glacial interludes, along with a few million years did allow for the development of two (or more?) different subspecies of CNBG, then who can say? A lot of literature that I have read suggests that once sea levels returned to normal, the two divergent strains were able to interbreed, and a great deal of that diversity was lost over time. So much so that some sources claim mystacalis no longer exists, and purpurascens is the standard that defines CNBG.
There's no denying the effects of a selective breeding program, and Overton's work with the CNBG speaks for itself, like Bruce's work with the northern strain does also. But starting with the correct stock appears to me to be of paramount importance, and this is where I allow myself to wonder about isolated pockets, or areas where the effects of this genetic dilution might not be as prevalent.
One of the 'to do' items in my bucket is to someday fish for hand painted BG's in the Apalachicola river. There's a BG unique to a fairly specific region.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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..starting with the correct stock appears to me to be of paramount importance, and this is where I allow myself to wonder about isolated pockets, or areas where the effects of this genetic dilution might not be as prevalent... BG Zero? I feel a vision quest coming!
AL
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Is that the going rate for bluegill fillets?.. You mean you can eat them too? I thought you just fed them until they exploded, took pics, and scared the LMB away when they came near them. I have to admit that BG have been a blast to manage, and my LMB are feeling neglected. I'm fine with that.
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Why doesn't someone raise those hand painted bluegills for sale? Are they cold tolerant? I would think one of those native fish growers would try this. There surely would be a demand for several thousand of them.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/11/14 09:10 AM.
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I'll bet they wouldn't like my colder water very well. Still, the idea of experimenting with a few of them is very appealing. I would love to have some.
Wherever he is right now, Yolk Sac has suddenly broke out into a cold sweat for what he thinks is no apparent reason.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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BG Zero? I feel a vision quest coming!
You bet. I mean it's a small quest to be sure, not on par with discovering the Ark of the Covenant, or Bigfoot or something. Baby steps, Al...baby steps!
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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I believe a couple of local hatcheries have raised them. It would be unlikely they'd be much more cold tolerant than CNBG. No doubt a neat subspecies or at least genetically unique river basin strain.
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Those fish are spectacular, Al. Well done!!
These differences in the CNBG brings to mind that whole mystacalis (peninsular Florida) vs, purpurascens (everywhere else) coppernose debate. I will add to this since I have worked with multiple stocks from peninsular Florida, and the Savanah River drainage. Savanah River drainage CNBG I think represent bulk of what is traded outside of Florida. They are the most similar form to the NBG in terms of overall appearance, but still distinguishable. CNBG of the St. Johns and Suwanee River drainages are very similar to each other and relative reddish in base coloration. Suwanee stock does not handle transport well while the St. Johns stock does. At least one supplier in Arkansas has carried St. Johns stock. Stocks occurring in the Manatee River drainage and possibly down to the glades are different yet again. They are decidedly round in profile and when crossed with NBG or the other CNBG stocks have a flat spot on the upper part of caudal peduncle. This variant lacks the red coloration. Larvae of these guys are very different with respect to behavior. It is my opinion the CNBG should be split into three subspecies in their own right. All should be split from NBG and Hand Paints which should be split from each other as well. I have seen nothing that makes me think CNBG and Hand Paint are closer to each other than either is to NBG. Hybrids I have made may have fertility issues.
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I like the hand painted bg and would love to have some in the pond. Any problems have them in a pond with the cnbg? And where would one go to find and buy such a good looking bg? How big will they get in an E Texas climate? In the pic provided by essup they look to have a larger mouth so do they?
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Jim, where do you place the CNBG found on the west coast?
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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