Where RES tend to be harder to catch, I would think the aggressiveness of the GSF might be a good attribute. Also the RES can get somewhat larger than BG, so this would also be a good attribute.
I'm assuming the GSF female x male BG is a commercially easy cross to make, therefore making it good for fish farms to produce. The RESxGSF cross might not be so easy.
Edit: The above link does not work. If you will do a google search for the title "Potentials of Redear Sunfish X Green Sunfish in farm ponds using parentals for stocking" and you will find the PDF download link.
I have GRES in my pond - stocked them accidentally in my management youth many moons ago - thought they were pure RES. Scott and I sampled one in fyke net this Spring at 10.5 or 11". Not a pretty fish, but was impressive otherwise.
Lepomis hybrids other than GBG or BGG aren't covered much but many would probably like to learn more about hybrid characteristics and their role in a fishery. I've been very interested in BRES/RBG hybrids but still don't know much but speculate plenty. All the BRES hybrids in my ponds are skinny - not very successful fish and definitely haven't been pellet trained. Not saying they can't be, just that mine apparently were not.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
I've noticed that when I target RES I will usually catch several RES/BG hybrids. (fishing very near bottom). However, I see the hybrids taking pellets off the surface with the BG, also. Very striking fish, appearance wise, and outstanding fighters on light tackle.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
Notice this fish took a topwater offering, more indicative of a BG than a RES.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
I know BRES will/can take pellets, but mine were sadly not trained...just my personal experience is all. Looks like yours are making a good living, Tony.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
Thanks for the great pictures. I will link this thread into the HBG Archives. The RES X BG hybrid may not be as aggressive as a BG X GSF, thus the RESxBG hybrid may not compete well with regular HBG.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Interesting but badly dated article/experiment. Only 5 pairs per acre.
I found it interesting that the pond with the fewest number of pairs had the greatest reproduction. Hard to read anything into that with such a small sample, but still interesting that so few fish, absent other predators, can reproduce so much. The thought occurred to me that fewer pairs could have actually reduced the predation on the fry compared to more pairs in the pond.
I have my mini forage pond with only RES and FHM in it. It would be interesting if I put one or two female GSF in it next spring during spawn when I could for sure identify the female GSF. I certainly have a supply of them available.
I thought with the RES being such a nice fish but relatively hard to catch, adding the aggressiveness of the GSF might make a good combination. Might be easier to catch and take to pellet feed well.
On the other hand, the RES having the reputation for meanness RES unknown facts , and the aggressiveness of the GSF, a person might need to wear protective gear to fish for them. The old TV commercial "It's not nice to fool mother nature!" comes to mind.
It appears from this study at least, that RES female x GSF male is the preferred cross from a growth standpoint. The start of this thread was a study of GSF female x RES male.
It appears from this study at least, that RES female x GSF male is the preferred cross from a growth standpoint. The start of this thread was a study of GSF female x RES male.
Contains info on back crossing also.
But according to this study the GSF male x RES female did not cross successfully in a pond environment setting, where the RES male x GSF female did.
So it looks like I'm back to stocking the proposed pond with RES then adding a few GSF females to get the GRES cross.
An oldie, but a lot of interesting information. Looks like RES male x GSF female produces 70-30 male to female and F1 x F1 also high reproduction. This is the cross that works in a pond environment. The opposite cross produced mostly males, but required being done in a laboratory. The resulting F1 x F1 subsequent cross did not work in pond or lab.
So it appears if a person wants pond raised RESxGSF it can be successful and will result in a 70-30 m/f ratio of F1 that will also reproduce. If a person did not want sustainable reproduction the GSFxRES would be the preferred cross but would be required to be obtained from a hatchery where the cross is done in the laboratory. At least that is what I got from the paper if I read it right.
I remember reading through all of those hybrid studies. I learned a lot, but in the end I had more questions than answers.
One more thing...if you decide to pursue hybrid lepomids in some form or another, you will need a nay-sayer. Yin to your yang, night to your day. All proponents of hybrid lepomids have a nay-sayer, it's just the way the universe works. If you're lucky, one will show up out of the blue of their own accord, and begin raining on your parade straightaway. If you want a really good one however, you may have to resort to some type of material compensation by way of payment for services rendered.
If this is your misfortune, I suggest that your opening offer consist of a vintage Pinot Noir. Be aware however, that nay-sayers often take great delight in obscure details, such as insisting that the grapes were crushed under the delicate feet of 19 year old virgins born during the month of May, or that the juice was filtered through cloth cut from the very same bolt of material as that which produced the Shroud of Turin.
A good nay-sayer does not come cheap.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
But as far as a good Pinot Noir, my idea of a good wine is Welches grape juice spiked with 180 proof grain alcohol. That is my level of sophistication when it comes to wine.
I've thought about the naysayers a little. Even thought about the goals for this new pond I am planning. For the naysayers to consider the situation properly it is only fair that they have the perspective of some goals.
So here they are. Goals for snrub's proposed 3/4 acre pond that hopefully will come about this March or April, depending on the weather. Mostly in order of inportance.
1. Have an excuse to pull the dozer and scraper out of the shed and dig a big hole in the ground while wasting Diesel.
2. Expend some excessive time on my hands.
3. Waste a decent amount of money (always a top priority when it comes to a hobby).
4. Raise some fish of my own doing, instead of buying them. Put them in the pond and see what happens.
5. Goal is to have FHM (just gotta love the little buggers), RES and GRES by introducing 4-6 native GSF females out of my old pond.
5.5 Maybe accidentally learn something along the way while having fun doing it.
6. Maybe eventually actually catch some of them by hook and line.
7. In my case, the journey is the destination.
That is a start anyway. Goals likely to change as time goes by.
About the only thing I will be willing to offer my nay-sayers is maybe some day having a Pond Boss get together where they can have a chance to catch some of my future 2# GRES. And maybe something cool to drink.
Just read through this entire post with great interest...I think I have a pond with RES X GSF hybrids...I'll take pics and post but I've caught several of them that have the gape and coloring of a GSF but clearly have a red opercular tab - just like RES.
This pond has had both RES and GSF for many years.
Pics to follow.
Dale
"When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water." - anonymous
Thanks for the great pictures. I will link this thread into the HBG Archives. The RES X BG hybrid may not be as aggressive as a BG X GSF, thus the RESxBG hybrid may not compete well with regular HBG.
Yes! Thank you very much for all the great pictures sprkplug. I'm hoping to get some natural crosses from my sediment pond experiment.
Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males. Sex determination in sunfishes is very poorly understood. Bluegills, green sunfish, and their F1 hybrids apparently have 24 pairs of chromosomes, and the sex chromosomes are indistinguishable from the autosomes (Bright 1937). Bright also reported that the chromosomes are so similar in shape and size that he was unable to detect specific differences. Roberts (1964) found that red-ear, bluegill, and warmouth sunfishes each have 24 pairs of chromosomes; green sunfish from North Carolina had 24 pairs; but green sunfish from West Virginia had only 23 pairs. The unbalanced phenotypic tertiary sex ratios of the F1 hybrid sunfish could result from unbalanced primary genetic sex ratios, specific differences in the strength of sex-determining factors, an overriding of the genetic sex by environmental factors, or differential mortality of the sexes. Since the WG F1 hybrids were 84 percent males and the reciprocal cross hybrids were 16 percent males, it is possible that the strength of sex-determining factors of warmouths are 5.25 times more powerful than those of green sunfish. Specific differences in the strength of sex-determining factors cannot alone explain the sex ratios of the remaining eight kinds of viable hybrids, since none of these were predominately females. RB and BG F1 hybrids were both 97 percent males. If differential mortality were the cause of these unbalanced sex ratios, much of the mortality would have had to occur after the swim-up fry stages, since in the stripping experiments total mortality between fertilization and the swim-up fry stages was only 14 percent for the RB and 27 percent for the BG F1 hybrids. It is not known which sex is the heterogametic condition for the sex chromosomes of the four experimental species; however, Haldane (1922) formulated a rule which furnishes a clue: “When in the F1 offspring of a cross between two animal species or races, one sex is absent, rare, or sterile, that sex is always the heterozygous sex.” Using Haldane's rule, Krumholz (1950), in a study concerning BR F1 hybrids, pointed out that the males of both bluegills and red-ear sunfish are probably homozygametic for sex and the females heterozygametic. The application of Haldane's rule to all possible F1 hybrids produced from red-ear sunfish, bluegills, and green sunfish indicates that the female is the heterozygametic sex in these three species. Hybridization of male warmouths with females of the three Lepomis species resulted in partial or complete lethals, suggesting that in the warmouth the male is the heterogametic sex. 4.2 Reproductive success of hybrids The reproductive success of each of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids was investigated in one or more ponds. The occurrence and abundance of F2 hybrids were determined by seining, trapping, shocking, poisoning or draining the ponds after the F1 hybrids were one or more years of age. RB, BR, and BG failed to produce abundant F2 generations when in ponds which contained no other species of fishes. In contrast to these results, BR F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 generations in two ponds in Indiana (Ricker 1948). The other seven kinds of F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few F2 hybrids. No F2 hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. WG F2 hybrids and GW F2 hybrids were stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Both of these F2 hybrids produced large F3 populations. Backcrosses, outcrosses, a four-species cross, and a three-species cross involving F1 hybrids are listed in Table III. The BW × B backcross was made by stocking adult male BW F1 hybrids and adult female bluegills in a pond which contained no other fishes. The other 12 crosses listed in Table III were made by stripping gametes from ripe adults and rearing the young to the free-swimming fry stage in the laboratory. R × RW, W × RW, B × RW, G × RW, R × GB, and RB × W young were killed after they developed into free-swimming fry because of the lack of ponds in which they could be stocked. All six kinds of fry appeared to be normal and probably would have developed into adults. Free-swimming fry of the remaining six crosses in the laboratory were stocked in ponds and did develop into adult fishes. BW × B, G × GW, and B × RG populations produced large numbers of young. Table III Successful backcrosses, outcrosses, four-way cross, and another cross involving F1 hybrid sunfishes.1 Backcross ♂ × ♀ Outcrosses ♂ × ♀ Four-Species Cross ♂ × ♀ Three-Species Cross ♂ × ♀ R × RW R × GB RB × GW BW × GW G × GW R × BW W × RW R × GW BW × B B × RG R × RW G × RW RW × W 1 R = red-ear sunfish, B = bluegill, G = green sunfish, W = warmouth. Hubbs & Hubbs (1933) reported that in Michigen F1 hybrids of bluegills, green sunfish, longear sunfish, pumpkinseeds, and orangespotted sunfish were unable to reproduce because males were sterile and ova stripped from the few adult females used in the experiments appeared distinctly abnormal. This study, often cited in the literature, has resulted in a rather widespread belief that all male hybrid sunfish are sterile. Results of my experiments conclusively establish that a number of different kinds of hybrid sunfishes produced in Illinois are not sterile, are fully capable of producing abundant F2 and F3 generations, and can be successfully backcrossed to parent species and even outcrossed to nonparental species.
Thanks for posting that ewest. Have read it a while back but following all the crosses makes my head spin. Need a flow chart to keep track of them all.
I'm only a novice at this, and it is probably only in my minds eye that this exists, but it seems to me the BxRG (Edit: Bluegill male X {RES male x GSF female}female cross if I understand the paper right) three way cross SHOULD make an excellent hybrid sunfish.
Considering though that hybrid sunfish for the most part are thought of distastefully by the majority of fish enthusiasts, and for fish farms raising them for sale a hybrid is a hybrid is a hybrid that only needs to live a long time on a fish route truck, and that few would be willing to pay a commercial fish farm for creating a "premium" hybrid sunfish, the likelihood of commercial stocking BxRG ever being available to stock a pond is nil.
So if a person wants some, he is going to need to raise them himself. And there likely will never be any research type evidence proving of any superiority or inferiority.
One I believe to be a RESxGSF hybrid caught off the dock today at the main pond. Almost 10" length.
The water is turbid from excessive runoff and 9" waves so the green GSF bars on the cheeks are washed out but they are faintly there. Notice the short pectoral fin of a GSF but the partial bright orange opercular tab of a RES but whitish continuation of the border of a GSF around the rest of the tab where orange or red would be on a RES.
Nasty day with 52 degrees and 20+ mph gusty winds. Caught several hybrids by bouncing 1/64 oz jig tipped with chartreuse Gulp Alive waxies just off the bottom right up next to the posts holding the dock up on the lee side.
Any opinions on the pedigree of the first fish? It does not show up in the picture as well as in real life but the border on the opercular tab is a solid white with just a hint of orange. A GSF has a translucent tab border usually of orangish/whitishness and a RES has a solid red or orange. But this fish the tab border was solid white with maybe just a hint of orange.
RESxGSF hybrid??? I'm not sure. Nice fish though. It went back in to grow some more.
The rest of the fish are RESxGSF hybrids that were transferred either my sediment pond or forage pond where they were created from a few GSF contaminating the ponds. I assume they are RESxGSF. The other possibility is CNBGxGSF (I catch a smaller number of those also) because I also had CNBG in the sediment pond. But I believe the rest of the pictures are of RESxGSF.
Bottom 3 fish look like GRES hybrids to me...top fish appears a F3-4 GBG heavily skewed towards BG genetics IMO. I'm not a lepomis expert by any means...
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
Here is a RESxGSF hybrid that shows both characteristics very well. Caught from my forage pond.
What I see in the characteristics that to me make it a hybrid are listed below. I encourage others to post what they see, both in agreement and disagree.
This fish comes out of a pond with only RES and a few GSF. No BG or predators present and the only other fish in the pond are GS and FHM minnows.
1. Solid orange specifically on the end of the opercular tab (as opposed to wrapped around) like a RES 2. Translucent whitish border above and below the solid orange tab reminiscent of a GSF (hard to see in this picture but very evident in real life) 3. Green cheek bars like a GSF 4. Longer and narrow pectoral fin compared to a GSF (more like a RES) 5. Lower fin tipping color and belly color similar to a lot of my GSF 6. Blue-green flecks of color in the main body (GSF like) 7. Too large mouth for a pure RES that size
John, from my perspective it looks like those RESxGSF have exaggerated GSF features. Maybe it’s just picture angles, but they look to have larger longer mouths than a normal BGxGSF cross.
John, from my perspective it looks like those RESxGSF have exaggerated GSF features. Maybe it’s just picture angles, but they look to have larger longer mouths than a normal BGxGSF cross.
I get a range of features. Some show more GSF than others. Had I not seen hundreds and hundreds of hybrids from fingerlings to 9+", it might be tempting to just call that fish a GSF. But all you have to do is get a real GSF beside it and the hybrid features become very evident.
The mouth is large on that fish, but if it were a pure GSF either the mouth would be bigger or the fish would not be as tall for that size mouth. The mouth to height (tallness) of the fish is off for a Pure GSF. Pure GSF will have the same size mouth as a LMB of the same length.
Another thing is the opercular tab. These fish have definite darker orange tab borders than what my GSF have. My GSF have a translucent border anywhere from almost white to an orangeish cast. But it is always translucent. It may not show well in the picture but this fish has a mixture of translucent and solid pigment (RES is solid). Some will have an orange dot in the middle of the translucence. Pure RES will always be solid color and none of mine wrap around the opercular tab. They are on the end only whereas the GSF margin wraps around.
I also get hybrids out of my sediment pond. There it is harder for me to tell for sure if they are CNBG/GSF or RES/GSF. Both potential crosses can be made there as well as potentially northern BG because during high water events they can swim up into this pond (with difficulty but they get there - I have seen them do it). That pond had CNBG and RES originally stocked. The nice thing about this forage pond is that it has never had BG stocked and out of hundreds of fish caught and thousands trapped I have never seen a BG. That gives me confidence that I only have to determine if it is either 1. RES, 2.GSF or 3.a hybrid thereof. That makes it a lot easier for me.
In my main pond I originally had 40 or so HBG as contamination at stocking time. I religiously fished them out and transferred them to my old refurbished pond that already had GSF in it. Got rid of those "things". About the time I could not catch any more or at least would very rarely catch one (they are much easier to fish out because of their propensity to bite a hook compared to BG) I decided I really did like hybrids. I'm a pan fish guy, not a big bass guy. So I started stocking my main pond with home raised hybrids from my forage and sediment ponds. Both CNBG/GSF and RES/GSF.
In fact I had even thought about specifically stocking a few GSF females to get some GRES (RESxGSF hybrids). Well as luck or fate would have it, it happened by accident instead of intent.
I get LOTS of naturally occurring hybrids out of my two small ponds. My thinking is that the reason I get so many hybrids is two fold. One is I fish out and remove as many GSF as I can (both trap and hook). So the GSF population stays relatively low compared to the other sunfish. Second both of these ponds have very low visibility most of the year. The forage pond because of a very heavy planktonic algae bloom and the sediment pond mostly because of the high rate of runoff from agriculture ground. I surmise it is the combination of the GSF having limited mating options and the turbid water that give me so many hybrids.
All the hybrids get moved to my main pond. We have caught some up in the 9" range recently and filleted them. I really like the fish. And when the pure BG get persnickety about getting caught I can nearly always depend on a hybrid accommodating my hook.
More hybrid pictures. I am not certain on the parentage of the hybrids pictured below but I will give them my best guess. I would be interested in others opinions.
My best guess is listed on each picture. I do have northern BG for the most part but also have had CNBG in my sediment pond for two years now and last year transferred many hundreds of the offspring to my main pond. I do catch the CNBG occasionally from the main pond and nearly always from the sediment pond although during high water events a few northern BG have swam up into the sediment pond so there can also be both in it although I have caught no northern BG that I am aware of from that pond.
So most of my hybrid BG are actually CNBGxGSF but I do have both.
Nearly all the hybrids have been raised in my own ponds.
Edit: pic 182346 may be a CNBGxGSF rather than from northern BG. Just hard to tell for sure.
One I caught yesterday that particularly shows the RES parentage. This likely was transferred as a fingerling either from my forage or sediment pond into my main pond where I caught it.
RESxGSF hybrid - same fish two pictures
First picture has face of fish shaded so it shows up the GSF'ish green cheek bars really well. Second picture I stood to shade the fish and the orange opercular tab shows up much better. Notice that it looks RES'ish but is not completely solid like a RES. But it is much more solid color than a GSF would exhibit with the solid part being on the end of the ear tab (RES'sih) and the whitish translucent portion wrapping around the tab (GSF'sih).
Just going by the pictures, a person might think it was two different fish. But it is only one fish (you can actually see it is laying in the same spot and position). Just goes to show how lighting and angle can change the perception. I often see things in a fish when I have it live that in pictures the feature can either look less or more pronounced.
snrub, would you have any pics of cnbg/res hyb? In my stocking plan I added 1850 res to a 3.25 acre pond along with my 3250 cnbg. In doing so, I think I have seen one or two cnbg/res hyb but not sure of it. I think with the fertile green water, it may have given an opportunity for the spawning but I am not sure.
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
I have only seen a couple of fish I thought could have been CNBGxRES hybrids, but I am not good enough at identifying fish to be sure they were. I just knew they looked different than most of my HBG or HRES.
The only reason I am reasonably comfortable identifying these HRES (RESxGSF) is that I have seen lots and lots of them come from a pond that they are the only possible hybrid because RES and GSF are the only sunfish in the pond (my forage pond).
Below is another RESxGSF that I caught out of my main pond yesterday. Lots of these hybrids were transferred from my forage pond as fingerlings and now they have grown. I return all of these particular hybrids to the pond to grow up because I am curious as to how they will turn out.
No sooner than I say I have rarely seen in my pond CNBGxRES hybrids and I catch two in a row of what I think are BGxRES and most likely CNBGxRES (because that is the mix that was in my sediment pond where lots of hybrids were created, transferred to my main pond, where these 4 fish were caught).
So the pics below are not RESxGSF, what this thread is about, but I thought it would be interesting to post the pictures to see the contrast. All fish pictured below were caught today and I got pics of both sides of each fish for better identification.
The first two fish are what I believe are CNBGxRES (or could be RESxCNBG - male of the cross usually stated first). No guarantees and I will be interested to hear what the experts say. I will give my reasoning and what I see and they can agree or disagree.
The first four pictures are of the two alleged CNBGxRES. Here is what I see that makes me believe they are that cross. 1. There is a translucent margin on the opercular tab. Cant remember for sure but I think it was Bill Cody that said a pure BG will always have a solid opercular. No margin. If that is so, the translucent margin indicates this fish is a hybrid if a person believes it has BG genetics involved. 2. I see no GSF genetics in the fish. No large mouth, no green bars below the eyes, relatively long pectoral fin. 3. What I do see below the eye and opercular tab is the yellow mottled patch that is on about 3/4 of my RES and is not a characteristic of any of my BG. 4. orange-ish translucent border on the opercular tab. That could be a characteristic of a GSF, but in this case there are no other GSF characteristics so the orange could come from RES genetics. 5. Could it be a RES with just a poorly defined red/orange tab? Possibly but the top of the fish has bright blue/purple that is very characteristic of some of my CNBG but never my RES. 6. The possible genetics in my ponds are BG, CNBG, RES and GSF. I have never seen, to my knowledge, any other sunfish species that stood out as being different than the mentioned four. Therefore by the characteristics I see and process of elimination I deem the first 4 pictures of two fish to be either RESxBG or BGxRES.
Fish 3 and four are just what I consider to be normal CNBGxGSF HBG. They could be northern BGxGSF but the probability is much higher that it is CNBG genetics because nearly all of my hybrids came from my sediment pond and CNBG is what was stocked along with RES in that pond with a few GSF from unknown source providing the GSF portion of the HBG. I put the regular HBG in there for comparison. They are nice fish, fillet out well and I like them. The first two fish went back in the pond. The HBG went to the holding pen to be invited to dinner.
Edit: the translucent opercular tab border is not very pronounced in the picture for fish #2 but if you look closely you can see it. It was very evident in person. Funny I caught the first two fish back to back in the same area.
Thank you snrub for the pic's of suspected res/bg hybd. The two fish I caught were very similar. About the only difference was in the color of the fish and that could be due to your water color or the picture itself. My two were a little more of a brownish/copper colored checkered pattern on the two side of the fish. Yours look to be a blueish/grey color from the pic. So, maybe others might join in with an opinion.
Last edited by TGW1; 11/21/1709:17 AM.
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
My BG have really turned colorful this fall. So much so I mentioned how pretty they were to my wife. I have lots that have that bright blue almost purple across the back and some of the females have such a bright almost iridescent yellow belly. Other colors enhanced to. The bright blue across the back is another BG feature that I do not see in my RES.
Snrub, This may be a bit off topic from your work with RES, but you seem to have a strong interest in monitoring hybrids. From what I've read, you have CNBG and northern BG in your pond. Do you notice many differences? I get that GSFxBG=HBG which to leads to a more aggressive growth which is common when cross breeding many things. The CNBG and BG must certainly cross in your pond so do you see any "mixed" BG? And are they any more aggressive or come in on the end of a hook any more frequently? I wish I could put some CNBG in my pond up here.
Good questions. Most of which I do not have answers for.
Some background. My main pond is 3 acres and was 2-3 years old before any CNBG were introduced. So the pond was likely at carrying capacity and had northern BG in the tens if not hundreds of thousands.
I stocked 100 CNBG and 175 RES in my 1/10th acre forage pond. They spawned and the pond likely went to carrying capacity with a large percentage being CNBG. I fished out what I could what had grown to be 5-7" original CNBG and put them in the main pond. I also trapped lots of fingerlings and put in the main pond. At year two of the sediment pond I had a fish kill and dip netted thousands of CNBG out before they surely would have died and put them in the main pond. So I put maybe a few thousand CNBG into a pond that likely had tens of thousands or more of northern BG.
The point of all of this is that my main pond being 30 times larger, even if both ponds were at carrying capacity and all the CNBG from the forage pond went into the main pond there would still be at least 30 times more northern BG compared to CNBG. I suspect it is closer to 100 to one. Point being I rarely, but do occasionally, catch a CNBG. The females I sometimes have a hard time telling. I will catch a fish with the wide vertical stripes common to CNBG and I think it may be a CNBG but my fish ID skills are not good enough to tell for sure. Once in a great while I will catch a nice male with traditional markings that it is certain to be a CNBG. So the CNBG are a very minor part of my total fish population in my main pond.
Will they intermix? My understanding is that they will and one reason I got some was for genetic diversity. Are they "hybrids" with hybrid vigor? My understanding is they are not. Since they are actually the same species (each a sub-specie) they do not take on the trait of a hybrid but will take on mixed characteristics. If the experts say otherwise, believe them over me. That is just how I understand it.
I am not far enough along to know if I have any mixed northern BG/CNBG. It is possible at this point because I had transferred the 6" nominal adults last year as I caught them. They have had time to spawn. But since I am having trouble identifying female CNBG for sure I'm not sure I will be able to tell a mixed one when I see it. That could very well be what I am seeing with the wide vertical bars on some of my fish. The CNBG could already be intermixing.
I'm not a purist so it does not matter to me. I like the hybrids and I like both types BG. As long as they are healthy pan fish that is my goal for the main pond - a pan fish pond. I have been harvesting some really nice 9"+ HBG that were originally created in my sediment pond and transferred to the main pond. (a few GSF got in that sediment pond and created a LOT of CNBGxGSF hybrids and a much lower amount of RESxGSF hybrids - these also got transferred to the main pond at fish kill time and some before on purpose).
That is what I think I know to date. Next year I will try to notice and take pictures if I see what I think are CNBG northern BG crosses.
Thanks for the response last week. The holiday got in the way and I didn't get around to any followup. Along with your RES projects, maybe this would give you cause to dig a new puddle just for breeding northern BG x CNBG
BTW, I've read through all of your threads and projects and really appreciate what you've done and continue to do. I think you and I have similar goals - nice pan fish before predators, place for family to enjoy, and a hobby that doubles as an inspirational learning environment for chronic tinkerers.
Thanks for the kind words. I think I missed your reply when you posted it.
Did some fishing today and caught a number of hybrids from my main pond (as well as a lot of BG and one foot long CC). These will have been hybrids produced either in my sediment pond or forage pond and transferred to my main pond as fingerlings.
The first one I believe to be a RESxGSF hybrid. The other two are likely CNBGxGSF as those were the two possibilities in my forage pond that was stocked with CNBG and RES with a few GSF introduced somehow. Also caught several smaller ones, but these three were decent size.
This fish has the appearance of a pure RES but lacking much of the red/orange coloration on the opercular tab. It does have a narrow orange band but it is small and is such that leads me to believe it might be a RESxBG or RESxCNBG hybrid.
I am thinking hybrid RESxBG with a heavy RES expression.
On the other hand it could be a pure RES with a damaged opercular tab, the red/orange area is thin and can easily be damaged. RES do nip on each others ear tabs and they can also get fungal infections when the water is cold. Did the other side look the same? I have seen a few RES that looked like that in my pond but the ear tab on the other side always looked normal.
I am thinking hybrid RESxBG with a heavy RES expression.
I'm guessing the same.
Both sides of the tab are the same. You can see the red but the margin is thinner than one would expect on a fish this size and it is partially covered by a thin layer of translucent black that further hides the red portion.
Is shows up a little better in real life than the picture but the red tab is still very marginal.
I have had trouble in pictures showing the tab border well at times. When the fish flares its gills, sometimes it changes the angle enough the margin does not show up very well in pictures. I find this often in GSF or GSF hybrids. When the gills are closed and the tab up against the body it shows well but if the fish flares its gills when I snap the picture the margin does not always show up well. The fish will just not always hold a pose for me.
Same thing goes for dorsal fin extension. If I remember I will lightly tap the fish on one side with one finger and the dorsal fin will extend for the picture. Of course that also can cause them to jump off the table onto the ground.
If there was just more of a red/orange margin it would be a picture perfect RES.
Shrub this looks similar to the RES that I catch out of my pond.I believe this fish is from my original stocking in October 2015. Do you think it has some GSF genetics? I do still have a few GSF even after culling over 250+.
I would call it pure RES but I am also no expert. I see nothing that leads me to believe it is a hybrid.
Here is a picture of a RES I took out of my forage pond last night by cast net. Notice it has a very thin red opercular tab. Most of my RES have much more prominent red/orange borders. But I would also call this a pure RES. I see no other characteristics to make me think it is other than RES. There is just a lot of natural variation within species.
Be interesting to see what others think of both of our fish.
I filleted several GSF tonight and none of them have the intensity of orange on the ear tab this hybrid does. I know for a fact I have numerous RESxGSF hybrids because I have moved many from a pond that only has RES and GSF. No BG at all. So I know this cross is in this pond and I believe this is one of the transfers all grown up.
Because of the sun angle the GSF green cheek bars do not show up well in the picture but they were very evident in person. Guessing it about 8" long. Wife had a 5 3/4# CC on the table with the measure or it would have been pictured there.
Handsome fish. Fat with good proportions. It is great to finally see one. Yours is the first and only color photo of this particular hybrid I have seen. Bet it was tasty. I know this may sound wierd, but I like the appearance of this fish better than its parents (or at least better than straight up GSF). I cant say that for BGxGSF hybrids which to me look a wee bit creepy.
Last edited by jpsdad; 07/05/1809:08 AM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Thanks! I thought it was a good looking fish also.
Kind of hated to fillet it, but with an over abundance of forage fish in this pond almost everything forage fish wise caught that is big enough gets filleted or if small gets transferred to a trash pond or cut the tail off for a LMB snack. I try to harvest quite a lot of fish to keep the biomass of the pond at reasonable levels to prevent a fish kill. I feed so the pond produces lots of pounds of fish.
The ones that go back into the pond are large male BG and CNBG, all RES, a select few large female BG if they look like they have outstanding genetics (but most females get filleted) and once in a while a large GSF if it looks like it has the potential to reach trophy size.
If I ever get the LMB population up to speed not as many will fall under the knife. I would really like to be catching lots of 1-2# LMB but there are few to be found in my pond. I did catch about a 4 pound LMB yesterday, but luckily it flipped off my barbless 1/64 oz jig before I could land it. In this hot weather I was glad it got away before I got it out of the water.
Thanks! I thought it was a good looking fish also. ... It was a really good fishing day yesterday.
Glad to hear the fishing was good. I've always thought that RES yield more filet for their weight than BG but don't know for sure. What are your thoughts? That fish just looks to be the perfect size and dimensions to yield a very good filet.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
I also get hybrids out of my sediment pond. There it is harder for me to tell for sure if they are CNBG/GSF or RES/GSF.
They might most likely be RES/GSF as this paper suggests. Within this is referenced:
"Attempts to simultaneously produce R x G and B x G F1 hybrids in the same pond by parental stocking have not been successful (Lewis and Heidinger 1978). The crosses always went in the direction of the parental redear sunfish."
This pertains to crosses of female GSF where the female GSF have the choice of RES or BG males.
Been looking through the thread and see you've posted many other photos. This is an interesting hybrid.
Last edited by jpsdad; 07/05/1812:31 PM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
In my sediment pond the initial stocking was 175 fingerling RES and 100 CNBG (FHM had been added earlier as soon as there was water in the pond).
According to that article most if not all the hybrids produced in that pond should be RESxGSF. Not sure where the GSF even came from as none were supposedly stocked. The sediment pond gets high water flows at times and is turbid with the high flows then clears up. I have assumed the high numbers of hybrids produced in the sediment pond was due to the limited partner availibility of the GSF along with turbid water (to perhaps make species determination more difficult).
In my forage pond supposedly only RES (and FHM) were stocked but in this stocking the fingerlings I got were terrible. I hand sorted them and they contained numerous hybrids with GSF parentage. I sorted out all the hybrids and put in the pond only the ones large enough I could positively identify as pure RES. But that was early in my pondmeister days and I was not nearly as proficient at separating out pure RES from hybrids or GSF as I am today. So either I let a GSF or hybrid slip through (very possible) or however a GSF got in my sediment pond they also got into my forage pond. Whatever the case was, I also ended up producing lots of RESxGSF hybrids in my forage pond. As I raised fingerlings I transferred both the RES and the hybrids over to my main pond.
So I know my main pond has numerous hybrids with RES parentage.
I was under the assumption that most of the hybrids from my sediment pond were CNBGxGSF but if the article you linked is accurate they should mostly be RESxGSF. I do not really believe that though because I often see in the hybrids the wide vertical bands that are more similar to my CNBG than a RES.
So without some DNA testing I may never know.
I do know that I like the hybrids, whatever the parentage is. They grow well (pellet hogs just like GSF), fillet well and fight well. Early on in my main 3 acre pond I had a small number of hybrids from my original stocking (was supposed to be all BG but 30 or 40 hybrids slipped in the stock). I pretty much fished them out (the article is correct about hybrids being easily caught) and transferred them to my old 1 acre pond (kind of a trash fish pond), thinking they were undesirable. About the time I could not catch any more I decided I really did like the hybrids after all. I could always catch them when nothing else wanted to bite.
So when I started getting naturally produced hybrid fingerlings from my forage and sediment ponds, I transferred them to my main pond along with pure RES and CNBG. So I have went from trying to get rid of hybrids in my main pond to stocking them on purpose.
Keep in mind I like fishing for pan fish. If I never had a LMB over 2# that would be ok with me. So the hybrids as pan fish go are just fine with me.
I can not tell you anything about the fillets on a RES. I think I cleaned one a couple years back that got gut hooked but because of low initial stocking of RES in my main pond I always return them to the water. The idea of having RES and raising fingerlings in my forage pond and sediment ponds was to increase the number of RES in my main pond by supplemental stocking transfers. It is working because I am starting to catch a RES once in a while in my main pond now.
Been trapping some GSF out of my forage pond and run across some hybrids too so I took the time to do some side by side pictures of similar size fish. The fish pictured are in the 3-4" range which is the size my minnow trap with the 1.5" opening catches the most of.
How do I know the hybrid is a RESxGSF? Those are the only two species in my forage pond. No BG stocked and none ever caught.
The hybrids got transferred to my main pond. The GSF get their tails cut off and fed to a couple pet LMB and a half dozen CC in the main pond that hang around my dock waiting for me to throw them in one at a time to them. Kind of fun watching a LMB hammer a 4" GSF but they have to be quick to beat the CC to them.
Their bellies are so extended because they are stuffed full of Optimal Hand Toss pellets that I use to bait the minnow trap.
This one might be a RESxGSF hybrid. Left and right side pictures. Notice length of pectoral fin and the orange dot most noticeable on the left side of the fish.
Just for comparison the third picture is of a pure GSF. The boards the fish are laying on are 2x6 so about 5.5" wide for size comparison. Note the length of the pectoral fin on the GSF compared to the hybrid.
Edit: Last picture was taken right after catching the fish. The first two pictures were taken after the fish had been on ice just before filleting it.
Dave I might not have even noticed or thought about the pedigree of hybrids except I have my forage pond that has only RES and GSF (have never stocked or caught a BG out of the forage pond) and I know there have been numerous hybrids from this pond that I transferred to my main pond. So unless they all got eaten after being transferred, I am pretty certain at least a small portion of my hybrid sunfish in my main pond are RES hybrids.
The trick is just figuring out which ones when I catch them.
Another interesting thing from my perspective is early on I got quite a few RESxGSF hybrids from that forage pond. This year I have trapped lots of GSF fingerlings and trapped and cast netted numerous RES fingerlings but hardly ever see a hybrid. So something earlier on caused a condition to favor more hybrid production. I suspect it was that I maybe only had very few GSF so they only had limited partners to spawn with, but that is just speculation.
Has your visibility changed since last year's spawning...ie: was it less clear then, as compared to this year? I've read that often contributes to crossing.
Also, during last year's spawning, if you were short on either species' breeding age males or females, as compared to the other, that may have had something to do with it too. Not knowing which direction the cross was made.
You probably have a better idea on how these crosses occur than I do tho.
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
From what I have read (definitely not from what I "know") the most likely "natural" cross is RES male x GSF female. It appears the GSF females are more likely to be flusies than the RES females. The opposite cross can be done in controlled environment but usually requires human intervention. That is my understanding so I assume (dangerous) that my RES crosses are that direction.
As far as turbidity, yes there have been changes. Early on in this ponds life there was a lot of clay around and every rain made it turbid. So for the first year or two there were periods of turbidity mostly dependent on rain patterns. I lined most of the pond with crushed limestone so as the pond developed and got a good algae bloom it was much less turbid and any turbidity was because of algae instead of suspended clay. So that could explain the unusually high number of hybrids produced earlier in the ponds life. I get lots of hybrids produced in my sediment pond also and it suffers from seasonal turbidity because of agricultural runoff and sediment. So in my opinion, turbidity does play an important role.
One other interesting thing that may affect hybrid production going forward. My daughter is in the process of building a small house 30 feet from my forage pond. In that process we have dug up a lot of clay for septic lines, water line and electric line. Now that pond just the other day again became very turbid because of this runoff from a recent rain and probably will continue to be affected through next spring after rainfall events. So it will be interesting to see if I start seeing more hybrids again as the RES do their late season spawn this fall and into the spawn next spring.
Funny, soon after posting my reply we went out fishing and I caught a number of hybrids that I think may be RESxGSF. They look different than my regular CNBGxGSF hybrids which I also have quite a number of. The CNBGxGSF all came out of my sediment pond where I stocked CNBG and RES.
Pictures of the candidates below. Last picture is of a pure GSF for comparison.
Comparing these pics to the first, these appear to be carrying more of the RES traits than GSF (more slope to the nose and the obvious red tag), but you can definitely see GSF in there too.
Yup....pretty babies, indeed!!!
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
Any chance there are PS genes in the mix? Interesting fish for sure. What about 3 way crosses? Third fish is different. Look at the tail margin light edging - only in CNBG.
The third fish does look significantly different. And yes there is the possibility of a three way mutt.
I suppose the differenf look could just be natural variance of the cross (not all individuals look exactly alike) or a different cross alltogether. I have ran across several that do look similar to the third fish. He is larger than the others so I suppose size/age could make a difference also.
I did stock CNBG and RES in my sediment pond with a few accidental GSF in there to make all the hybrids. So CNBG parentage is possible.
I like the looks of the fish. They tend to be pellet hogs, grow fast, bite a hook well and fillet out nice.
It might seem like I have an excess amount of hybrids and based on yesterday's fishing would support that (tougher to get fish to bite than the day before). But I would estimate, based on what I see at feeding time, GSF and hybrids probably comprise no more than 5% of my forage fish BG type population. I catch lots more BG than hybrids. The hybrids are just something different so I am kind of fascinated with them.
Thanks for starting this discussion John and I hope I'm not hijacking here. I would love to get some thoughts from others. I'm not good at identification yet. I have been concerned that the "BG" I received at stocking were in fact mostly HBG (or even worse just GSF). I haven't kept a faithful log, but 90% of what I catch with a worm under a bobber are like the HBG/GSF in my pics attached. I was supposed to get 200 BG and 100 HBG at the time of stocking. I understand HBG should be more aggressive, but I hardly catch anything but what's in the pics.
My pond is only two years old and stocked last spring (2017). I think most seem to be doing well (most are 5-6" with an occasional 7-8"), but I'm not confident I got exactly what I was told.
Coming from someone who has embraced GSF, I'm 99% sure the first two pics are GSF. The third may have some RES in it, but you do find a GSF occasionally with red tips on the gill flap.
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
The middle picture looks pure GSF. Harder for me to tell on the first and third picture but if they have some other sunfish in them the traits sure are heavy towards GSF. They all have pectoral fins and green cheek bars that look GSF.
It is easier to tell with them in hand than in pictures only. A pure GSF will not only have a big mouth but a wide body compared to a BG. The hybrid is something in between. But if you have a pure GSF and a hybrid side by side you can see that the GSF lacks the height of body the hybrid has but the GSF will have a wider (thicker) body.
It would be easy to call all three of those GSF but I would not be surprised if there was not some mix in the first and third pictures. Thing of it is, none of them look like traditional F1 HBG. If they are hybrids they could be F2's with a lot more GSF characteristics being exhibited.
That is my take but I am far from an expert. I can tell my own fish better than someone elses because if I question I can pretty easily get my hands on another fish that I am sure of the pedigree. Once I can compare them side by side then the hybrid becomes evident. I also know what my possibilities are by the fish I stocked so that helps too.
On a side note concerning GSF, I have had the occasion to fillet quite a few pretty good size GSF recently and the meat and skin are distinctively different than BG.
One notable difference is that the GSF will have a thicker fillet but the body is not as tall so the fillet is not as wide. Overall I think I get less meat from a GSF than a BG of similar size.
But the main things I notice is the meat is finer grained (flakes are smaller when cooked) and the skin and scales are quite different. On a BG to get the fillet off the skin just run the knife between. Comes off pretty easily. But when I fillet GSF I have to be lots more careful with the knife or I cut through the skin. The skin seems to be thinner and more delicate, the scales finer and the meat more tender. All in all, when cutting the fillet off the skin I have to be a lot more careful or I mess up the fillet.
I can't say that I have noticed any difference in filleting a HBG vs a pure BG but in reality I just did not pay that much attention. I will try to compare better in the future. But the GSF was enough different it was easily noticeable that I had to be more careful getting the skin off.
Those 3 look like GSF. I don't see any BG (or HBG) traits in any of them. Only slight possibility that No. 2 is part HBG is the yellow on the fins , which can be (but not exclusively) a HBG trait.
You guys are giving me a sick feeling that I received poor stockers. I don't want to take away from the initial topic, but any guidance on what route I should now take? I know some (Mike above for one) have embraced GSF, but would like other thoughts on correction. Thanks.
I hate to say it JW, but if you're wanting them gone completely, about the only option you've got is to kill everything in the pond and start over, but that's not necessarily a 100% guarantee you'll never get GSF in your pond again. They have a reputation for "just showing up".
That being said, GSF will readily go into a trap baited with cheap dog food, and you can reduce their numbers significantly that way. It wont eliminate them, but it will knock them back some.
If you plan on restocking HBG, I think the probabilities of having them again are pretty high, tho, being that half of that cross is GSF.
As has been said... when you get lemons, make lemonade. GSF are aggressive and feisty critters. Eager to bite, and a hoot to catch on light tackle. They dont eat too bad either!!
Last edited by Mike Whatley; 08/28/1811:45 AM.
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
snrub, what about the taste between the two? I prefer the warmouth, rockbass, goggleye over the bg. But I still like the bg also.
We have not eaten all that many of them, although just recently we did clean several larger ones so maybe we will notice. I asked the wife and she said she didn't separate them when cooking. I guess my answer is I have not seen enough difference that when eating BG I say "oh, this must be GSF?" Just have not noticed the difference but have not made any special attempt to do so either.
I like the coating we put on them even more than the fish itself so the coating may be covering up any difference also. I have her cook everything in nugget sizes about two bites per nugget. I might notice more if the fish were prepared without breaded type coating.
Do you think it could be because GSF spend so much time in super shallow, and warmer water? The heat causing them to be softer?
Don't know. I assumed it was just because it was a different species. I know little about BCP but have heard that the meat is of different texture or structure at different times of year.
I'll try to pay more attention the next time I fillet one to be more observant on the differences. I've mostly noticed that I have to be more careful getting the skin off the fillet or I will cut or tear through the skin.
You guys are giving me a sick feeling that I received poor stockers. I don't want to take away from the initial topic, but any guidance on what route I should now take? I know some (Mike above for one) have embraced GSF, but would like other thoughts on correction. Thanks.
Here is a thread of mine on GSF invasion of my old pond. What I did was introduce some larger size BG (large enough so the larger GSF could not eat them) and in a couple years the pond turned completely around. There are GSF still in the pond but the BG dominate it completely in comparison.
Your more northern BOW may act differently though. Seems like I have heard more problems in the north than in the south with GSF being a ongoing problem. "Here" the big problem with them comes in if they get established in a pond before a person puts his prized 2" fingerling stockers. Then the big mouth GSF promptly eats all of them and proceeds to fill the pond with nice GSF fingerlings helped by the high protein fingerlings the pondmeister just stocked. But once there is an established BG/LMB population they do not seem to be a problem at all. That is "here". Your results may vary.
Here is another important thing to remember. The GSF and hybrids thereof are very aggressive to bite a hook. On some days my BG are just as aggressive so I catch mostly BG and a GSF once in a while. But on days when the BG are more persnickety a person might think I only have GSF and HBG in my pond. The GSF genetics are just enough more aggressive at biting a hook that when fishing gets a little tougher I will catch a disproportionate number of fish with GSF genetics. Another very common occurrence in my main pond when first starting to fish an area for BG is I will immediately catch a few GSF and hybrids. Then I will start catching BG. Basically the GSF genetics are aggressive enough I "fish them out" in that immediate area then the BG step up to the plate and start biting.
My point in that previous paragraph is that just because you caught those three fish right off do not assume all your fish are those same type. They just have been the ones willing to bite a hook that particular day. I get the same results when setting minnow traps in my forage pond. I will trap GSF fingerlings 20 to one to RES (no BG in forage pond). But if I throw a cast net I will get 20 RES fingerlings to one GSF. RES do not go into baited traps as readily as GSF so by trap numbers it looks like the pond is filled with GSF but it is not. Now that I have been trapping for a couple months I get mostly RES fingerlings in the trap because most of the GSF fingerlings have been removed. GSF just go after fish food more aggressively than the RES.
So don't get overly excited thinking you might not have anything other than GSF in your pond till you do some more checking.
P.S. Larger GSF can be caught out in deeper water with BG. But if I purposely want to catch a small GSF for my wife to use as CC bait (CC LOVE small GSF) I will cast very near shore or around cover. GSF like shallow water and cover.
Those 3 look like GSF. I don't see any BG (or HBG) traits in any of them. Only slight possibility that No. 2 is part HBG is the yellow on the fins , which can be (but not exclusively) a HBG trait.
Eric knows what he speaks of. I would go with his evaluation over mine.
I will say when I am hand feeding my fish the telltale sign I use in my population is the fin tipping. Fish swimming around in green water sometimes are hard to identify from the shore. But in a group of fish my BG will have solid color tails and GSF or hybrids with GSF in them will have yellow or less frequently reddish tipping on the fins. I can spot them easily in a group of fish feeding. One exception is I do have a small population of CNBG within my overall BG population and they will sometimes have a very slim white tipping of the tail fin. But it does not show up nearly as obvious at the yellow tipping of the GSF.
I have always speculated that I should be able to pick the GSF out from the bank by looking at the shape of the fish. GSF are more shaped like a bass and BG are taller more dish pan shaped. But something about being on the shore and looking downward into the water, all the fish look more elongated than when I catch them and have them in my hand. So the only definitive feature that I can consistently pick out the fish with GSF in them when on the bank looking into the water is seeing the fin tipping.
Hey all! I'm a little late here, but I want to thank you for your help identifying my fish pics and other advice on this. I'm not the type to lose my mind over having GSF in my pond so I'll just look at it as an opportunity to learn and figure something out (just wish I didn't pay so much for 'em). As you mentioned snrub, the introduction of a higher concentration of bigger BG seems to be something that you and others have had success with. I've actually been doing this anyway - glad to hear it's a sensible remedy.
My top goal with my pond was to have a pretty place where it's easy to catch fish. I work on the "pretty" part almost daily and at least the GSF are taking care of the "easy catch" part of my goal. LOL!!!
I'd feel bad had this happened to a more serious angler or tightly wound person. Thankfully, my YP have done well in this first yr.....including the one in the pic below. He/she was delicious!!!
John, I wish you the best on your hybridization plan. Sounds great!
Hey all! I'm a little late here, but I want to thank you for your help identifying my fish pics and other advice on this. I'm not the type to lose my mind over having GSF in my pond so I'll just look at it as an opportunity to learn and figure something out (just wish I didn't pay so much for 'em). As you mentioned snrub, the introduction of a higher concentration of bigger BG seems to be something that you and others have had success with. I've actually been doing this anyway - glad to hear it's a sensible remedy.
My top goal with my pond was to have a pretty place where it's easy to catch fish. I work on the "pretty" part almost daily and at least the GSF are taking care of the "easy catch" part of my goal. LOL!!!
I'd feel bad had this happened to a more serious angler or tightly wound person. Thankfully, my YP have done well in this first yr.....including the one in the pic below. He/she was delicious!!!
John, I wish you the best on your hybridization plan. Sounds great!
John, I wish you the best on your hybridization plan. Sounds great!
Hybridization plan???? LOL. No plan involved. Just the way it has turned out. Fortunately for me, like you with the GSF, it is not an earth shattering disappointment. I have learned to like the hybrids a lot. Mostly because they grow to a decent size fast and are easy to catch.
I guess I had considered creating some RESxGSF hybrids, but as it turned out I got some by accident so I never really specifically did anything to gain the hybrids. I just accidentally had the conditions for them to happen naturally in significant numbers.
Since you posted the last images of the RESXGSF, I've been noticing them in the BOWs I fish nearby. They occur in every BOW that has RES and GSF. There is one BOW in particular where they proliferate. I will catch maybe 6 of this hybrid to every other one that is pure. Several species are present there to include BG,LES, RES, and GSF. There are also a lot of bass in this BOW. The hybrids run larger than other sunfish but are thin. Nearly every one of them is greater than 6".
I've only caught one GSF there. I am kind of thinking they are just holding on by a thread. I figure the males are very vulnerable to the LMB during spawning season which may force the girls to seek other mates. They obviously prefer RES. Though I catch a lot more hybrids there, I don't think they are present in such relative numbers. They are just more aggressive at biting the hook. RESXGSF like popping bugs, nymphs/wooly boogers, and especially gambusia minnow imitations. When I fish with these I catch about 1 bass to every 4 hybrids ... and an occasional BG,RES, or LES.
Looking back, I think I have hastily identified this hybrid as BGXGSF when I caught them in the past. Should have been paying closer attentions . If one has RES and GSF, its seems this hybrid is likely to show up.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
John, I've followed your journey since I joined PondBoss and you certainly deserve credit for many of the happy accidents that have come from it - including the RESxGSF. I love following your projects.
C&P, I'm guessing that you're referring to the faint vertical stripes in the YP pic. I have noticed that about 1 in 10 are really light like that. I've always assumed they are females that are well past the spawn and just don't carry much color, but I'm no expert. Maybe someone else has a theory. 90% of my perch look like the one below. I think they look pretty normal/healthy. I know they taste great!
I've occasionally entertained the idea of yellow perch in my pond. I know my wife, who's a Michigander, would sure love a few to eat from time to time. I just don't know how well they'd handle these tropical temps down here. If I knew for sure they'd thrive, I'd look into importing some 4-6" fish to stock this fall.
What's another species of fish gonna hurt in my little mutt pond!!?? I'm sure they'd help keep my YOY BG in check.
Last edited by Mike Whatley; 09/04/1803:47 PM.
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
Mr. Cody is the perch expert and can weigh in here. There is a urban legend that YP need large bodies of water and deep water similar to walleye, but they do just fine in small mudpuddle type ponds as long as they don't overheat in summer.
Bill can tell you that there are southern strain (or warmer water tolerant) YP but it doesn't seem to be easy to figure out how to get your hands on them. It would help if the YP had a cold water refuge in the summer. In heavily aerated southern ponds when it is 93 degrees from the top of the pond to the bottom that may not work so well for them to avoid heat stress.
Yet, I believe many myths persist only because no one tries it. It should be fairly easy to source pellet trained YP in the Midwest (say southern IN?) but you would have to arrange for a cool weather shipment or special packing and overnight shipping if it is hot during the shipping day(s)
I think if we could work out how to make YP work in the southern pond it would be a huge market as they are very good eating, they are good predators of crayfish which many southern pond owners struggle to keep in check. They also can help the RES eat snails and are prolific spawners (at least in northern ponds) They are one of the first to spawn at ice out as well. If the stocker fish were big enough to escape predation then it would be a cool experiment.
Did a bit of researching on hatcheries that deal in YP. Seems the going rate for late season fish big enough to stock would be $2+/Fish, but I wouldn't want many anyway.
Then there's the matter of whether the state would allow them to be stocked. I know TP are banned here.
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
Mike, there are some yp in Florida that may be temperature tolerant to our warmer waters. If memory serves me, they are found in places where there are underground springs that contribute to the waters where they are found. And it might have something to do with the supply of some cooler water from those springs. Even though most underground springs in Florida have warmer water temps than one might think. I am not aware of any supplier from that part of the country, based on past discussions. But if you were to take a trip and return with some, there are a couple of us who would be interested in trying to help you out and take some off your hands for researching how they might do in and around here
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
A little off topic, but is there a reason that no one is interested in white perch? They definitely eat better than yellow, and grow larger. Are they even less tolerant of temps? They are almost always found in the same BOW with yellows in New England.
I've heard that too and I suspect those BOWs, being spring fed, are able to sustain relatively cooler temps (60s maybe) that are considerably cooler than my summer temps (88 recently). And they're likely considerably deeper. I just don't think they'll be able to thrive in this water.
I've accidentally caught a few in the Tennessee river system. But those impoundments are DEEP!! (Watts Bar has 200 feet in places.) and also maintains healthy populations of Sauger (southern Walleye).
I'm only running aeration 6 hours (2a-8a) until my surface temps drop enough to prevent super heating my mutt puddle now.
Now that I've totally hijacked this thread....back to our regularly scheduled programming!!
Last edited by Mike Whatley; 09/06/1807:32 AM.
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
A little off topic, but is there a reason that no one is interested in white perch? They definitely eat better than yellow, and grow larger. Are they even less tolerant of temps? They are almost always found in the same BOW with yellows in New England.
Down here, White perch is a Crappie. So maybe it's because we understand it takes a pretty good sized pond to have white perch where yellows do not need that large body of water?
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
White perch, particularly white crappie will absolutely over populate in a heart beat as well. Black crappie, for some reason, aren't as prolific as the white species, and they get bigger!!
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
A little off topic, but is there a reason that no one is interested in white perch? They definitely eat better than yellow, and grow larger. Are they even less tolerant of temps? They are almost always found in the same BOW with yellows in New England.
Down here, White perch is a Crappie. So maybe it's because we understand it takes a pretty good sized pond to have white perch where yellows do not need that large body of water?
Google to the rescue... Learn something new every time I log onto PB.
"White Perch are actually a member of the temperate bass family, like a Striped Bass or White Bass, & not a true "perch" Crappie are a member of the Sunfish family, along with Largemouth/Smallmouth/Spotted Bass & Bluegill."
Crazy notions are always creeping into my scattered brain. My latest is how well Tiger Oscars would do in a deep south pond...lol. They can get up to 15" and over 3 lbs in the right conditions. The female only lays between 1000-3000 eggs, but they pull double duty guarding the fry so recruitment would be minimal at best.
Very aggressive predators, with a gape big enough to definitely handle smaller BG, tho a 3 pounder would likely be able to handle 2-3" forage.
Hmmmm
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
You can buy them all day long at Wal-Mart for about $.25/ea. Would just have to tank raise them to be big enough to release in the pond. Serious consideration!!!!
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
It could be a pure GSF but I don't think so. I caught a couple pure GSF near the same time. Too tall and too thin (not wide enough body). Can't tell the width by the picuture but in hand there is a distinct difference between the hybrids and the pure GSF.
I was going by what I've caught in my pond. With only NBG and GSF as my primary sunfush, I don't "think" I've had much opportunity for crossing as my water stays relatively clear(16-40 inches depending on time of year). It looks exactly like those I've got my hands on.
Edit: upon second look at the picture, it could be a RES/GSF cross. A lot of specks on its side and that hint of orange on the opercule.
Last edited by Mike Whatley; 09/06/1803:31 PM.
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
Fishing for Tiger Oscars would be a blast! We need a volunteer from South Texas...anybody?
I laughingly told the wife about my crazy Tiger Oscar idea. Her reply was "You know they'll all get ate!" Then I explained I would have to tank raise them till they got big enough.....she didn't say no!!!
Think I'll start pricing aquariums....lol.
Edit: After further research reading, Oscars are a pipe dream for this area. While they've been known to thrive in the everglades, even southern Louisiana gets too cold. Guess it's gonna have to be a south Texas/Florida adventure.
Last edited by Mike Whatley; 09/06/1808:20 PM.
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
Totally agree. So an update. A couple of weekends ago I caught a few of them for bait (6 + inchers). It was big bait and I was after big fish as I am trying to catch a couple 25"+ CC I've been seeing in one pond. I had 8 left when I quit and released them. Now here's the rub.
I've caught and released maybe all of them since then. Last night, I think I caught seven of them ... though perhaps I might have caught a couple twice. They are thin and much easier to catch than the bluegill that are in the pond, a handful of which are large >10". YOY in this BOW achieved > 6" this year. I think the hybrids will be a good indicator as to when, if at all, someone comes through harvesting panfish on this BOW.
John, are you finding snails in them? I am. RESXGSF definitely eat them.
Last edited by jpsdad; 09/19/1807:51 AM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
The hybrids are definitely aggressive towards a hook. There are days when I think my BG are just as aggressive. But day after day, when the BG are not particularly aggressive, the hybrids still are.
Very often when first fishing a spot on the bank, 3 out of four fish I catch are hybrids. Then I start catching BG. But when I feed I can see the hybrids because of the very visible tail margin. Very small percentage are hybrids.
Here are a couple from my RES/SMB pond. Not supposed to be any GSF genes in that pond, but I have been catching a few. Could have been some contamination in the fish I stocked from a fish farm. Or could have been some mistakes when I was moving RES fingerlings from my forage pond. I caught 3 altogether but just took pics of two. The markings on all three were nearly identical and size similar (making me wonder if they came from the same brood) and really have a distinctive RES opercular. But they have the green cheek bars (along with the yellow mottled RES cheeks) and a short pectoral fin resembling a GSF.
Really pretty fish I think. But I moved them out of my RES pond because I am trying to keep it pure RES.
I've not cut the gut open on any to check for snails. Guess I should.
I would like to know the percentage of them in the pond where they proliferate. I can't say with any certainty what it may be. Competition in this BOW for food resources is something fierce. The RW is poor. I do think there is a survival advantage for the hybrids. This may in part arise from their snail eating behavior. Hybrid vigor and the larger gape play a role as well.
A panfish that can utilize virtually every available food source is interesting particularly under a put and take system. Where they remain resistant to hook intelligence, the fishing and individual growth would be excellent. I wonder how large this hybrid can get?
Last edited by jpsdad; 09/19/1807:54 AM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
In my main 3 acre pond I think I get very little hybridization. The way the hybrids get there are from my sediment pond above it. In the sediment pond there are periods of turbidity and large inflows of water. There are also GSF which seem to tolerate severe conditions a lot better than other more desirable fishes. Could explain why the vast majority of sun fish in local creeks and streams are GSF. Very few BG caught. At least that is the way it was as a kid. Hardly fish anything other than my pond now. We used to call GSF other names when I was a kid simply mistaking fish in spawning colors by their coloration. We didn't know how little we knew.
So my sediment pond seems to be good conditions for the hybridization to occur. As I fish it to cull fish I still get a number of HBG YOY from the catch. Much smaller numbers of the RESxGSF but really hard to tell when fish are small. Most of my RESxGSF hybrids come from my forage pond where there are no BG present.
The problem with hybrids is that they are only available from hatcheries as small fingerlings and can't be added to existing populations of fish with the expectation of good survival. If they could be sourced at 5 to 6 inches they would be far more interesting.
For the production of large panfish, their incapacity to reproduce in the presence of LMB is a plus I think but only if one has a source of replacements that exceed the gape of most of the BOW's LMB.
Speaking of GSF take a look at this one I caught a few days ago. My hand from wrist to tip of second finger is ~7". This one is about 9" and caught on a popper.
Last edited by jpsdad; 09/20/1809:09 AM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Only in the eyes of the uninformed Dave. Only in the eyes of the uninformed.
But a person has to be careful in choosing his words, lest the unwashed GSF haters throw us to the lions. It is a select few that can walk the walk of the GSF Fan Club.
My forage pond is only 1/20th acre and very fertile. Every fall I reduce the biomass so the remaining fish will make it through the winter well and have room to grow the next spring. I accomplish this by trapping, angling and cast net over a period of a couple months.
Was throwing the cast net today and moving GSH, RES and a few RESxGSF hybrids over to my main pond. Ran across several of the hybrids so thought I would add the pictures to this thread. They are pictured beside pure RES for reference. Although some may look like the same fish each picture are of fish from different cast net throws. There are no BG in this pond so I know the fish can only be RES or GSF or some combination thereof.
Edit: I'll add one more picture. The last picture I can't decide if it is a pure GSF next to the RES or if it is a hybrid and perhaps an F2 with a lot of GSF characteristics. I think it is a pure GSF. It went to the fillet holding pen.
Snrub You have some great pictures of GSFXRES hybrids. Thanks for taking time to make those pictures and your work with these fish. It will be interesting to see the growth characteristics of these hybrids. Good work!
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Thanks Bill, I appreciate that comment. Most people are not that interested in the hybrids or specific hybrids, but I figure since I have them and kind of enjoy messing with them if anyone is interested in the future it is not that hard to document the ones I see.
A problem I have is once they go into my main 3 acre pond, I have more difficulty determining if they are a RESxGSF hybrid or just a regular HBG since I have both. The first picture below may be a RESxGSF but I just do not know for sure. The second picture I would call a regular HBG (.95#). The third picture is a GSF. All of these were from my main pond. The fourth and fifth pictures are actually of the same RES but it certainly changed coloration from the time it came out of my forage pond in the cast net and when I put it on the tail gate for a better picture. The last picture shows the urogenital opening of the RES
One thing I am sure of, the hybrids grow fast, take to pellets very well, and are relatively easy to catch and fillet out well.
Here are some pictures of RESxGSF hybrids. I'm culling these out of my RES/SMB pond. It was supposed to have only SMB and pure RES but I made some mistakes with the identification of some fingerlings that were moved from my forage pond. Had lots of RES as well as RESxGSF fingerlings raised in that pond and a few of the hybrids I mis-identified as pure RES and got Transferred to the RES/SMB pond by mistake. I think my problem was with the under 3" fish I transferred.
Anyway, I really like these RESxGSF hybrids, just not in that particular pond. I been putting them into the adjacent old pond where I hope they will get bigger.
I remove them because they compete with my SMB yearlings for food. Have caught quite a few just like the ones in the pictures. They are easy to catch, unlike their pure RES cousins in this pond. They go after the same baits the 9-12" SMB I target for transplanting into other ponds.
Here is one out of my main pond from earlier this fall. Can't decide for sure what pedigree it is. Definitely a mutt, but I think it may be a CNBGxRES hybrid.
I think you have a Trybrid there. I see GSF and RES but I think some CNBG by head shape, maybe.. Water color, or lack of, has a lot to do with fish color as well as time of year. If nothing else, very interesting!
I have the perfect RES/SMB pond I could do this in by adding just a few male BG. Probably not do it this year, but I might some time in the future. The hybrids go to feed easily and are easy to catch. Not so for the pure RES. And I am more into catching rather than fishing.