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Last edited by ToddM; 08/10/14 02:29 PM.
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Looks nice. What do you want to do with your pond? Fish, swim, relax with a beverage? CMM
CMM
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Looks nice. What do you want to do with your pond? Fish, swim, relax with a beverage? CMM
Yes, yes and yes!
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Well I removed all the trees and roots and began core trench. At about 15' we hit sand/water. We were able to dig through the sand seam back down to clay. We are trucking out all of the sand that's close to the dam and although it will prolong the project I think this is the right thing to do.
Does anyone have any insight on this? Is there anything I should know before I dig the core and fill it with clay? I will get up some more recent pics.
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Where ever that sand seam enters the pond, be sure to pack over that with clay. Do it in layers and pack each layer, and knit each layer together. Best to do it with a sheepsfoot roller.
Nice looking place so far,... and welcome to PB.
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Where ever that sand seam enters the pond, be sure to pack over that with clay. Do it in layers and pack each layer, and knit each layer together. Best to do it with a sheepsfoot roller.
Nice looking place so far,... and welcome to PB. Thank you. The seam of sand is running lengthwise under the pond right out under the dam. blocking it where it enters the pond would require moving eqt to the up side of the pond and digging down over 40', not an option. We have to block the sand/water from going thru the dam which will require basically damming the sand seam at the bottom end of the pond. Am I correct in my thinking?? We are in the process of removing all of the sand closer to the dam and getting it out of the way so that we can dig below it and pack the core trench with clay. My other question is, is there a way to capture all of that water that is in this underground river and use it to fill the pond? I will post some more photos that may help. The sand is running from left to right down thru where the dam will be by my green tractor in last photo. As you can tell we made the pond much bigger than a half an acre, I figured if we were going to do it make it as big as we can.   
Last edited by ToddM; 08/09/14 02:15 PM.
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We dug three deep holes to the right of the house and buried the stumps.  
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Here is the 4' thick seam of sand that is causing my current head ache. My thinking, once we dam the pond, I will put a plastic liner covering the entire face of the dam and cover it with more clay. 
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I'm not sure if we are both saying the same thing but writing it differently. Yes, pack or plate the sand seam where it is going thru the dam. Your core in the dam should be doing the same thing, right? In your core, if you hit sand, you need to get down below it and sever it, then pack with clay. I still would pack the pond side of the dam too, over the sand seam.
If the vein of sand runs the whole length of the pond, it would be best to cover and pack with clay, or dig out till you hit clay again. If you hit clay again, I know your thinking it's kind of a waste of time/money because the water won't soak past that sand seam. However, if you never hit clay again(endless sand seam), then you will lose a lot of water constantly. You won't know if that sand ends or not unless you dig it, right? Another option would be to cover it with packed clay and use it as a hump in the bottom of the pond (fish structure).
These are my thoughts anyway. Perhaps others will chime in.
If you have an underground river, perhaps you could tap into that outside the perimeter of your pond and install a pump to keep the water up in your pond during droughts. It would be a nice option.
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Great pics and fast progress. I hope you get your sand problem figured out. I can wait to hear more.
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I agree with what was said. The sand vein has to be cut off at both ends, the ends packed properly with clay, and teh sand vein plated over with clay (I'd go 24" thick) to ensure that water won't reach the sand vein and leak out of the pond. If you don't dig it out and refill it with good clay, or cut the ends and plate over the top, how do you know that there IS a bottom to the sand vein?
If you have enough clay, the whole pond bottom and sides up to the high water level should be packed with clay in four, 6" to 8" lifts and compacted with a sheepsfoot roller or multi-tired pan scraper full of dirt. Just facing the dam with a liner and hoping it'll hold won't work. What's to prevent the water from going around the liner, or going thru the liner if it is punctured?
There is no one-way valve in sand. If the water pressure is higher in the pond than the water pressure in the sand seam, then the water will run out of the pond.
Trust me, it's MUCH cheaper to fix it right now, when there isn't water in the pond than later when you are full of water and fish. There is no way to fix it after the fact unless you drain it and get to the point where you are at right now.
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I agree with what was said. The sand vein has to be cut off at both ends, the ends packed properly with clay, and teh sand vein plated over with clay (I'd go 24" thick) to ensure that water won't reach the sand vein and leak out of the pond. If you don't dig it out and refill it with good clay, or cut the ends and plate over the top, how do you know that there IS a bottom to the sand vein?
If you have enough clay, the whole pond bottom and sides up to the high water level should be packed with clay in four, 6" to 8" lifts and compacted with a sheepsfoot roller or multi-tired pan scraper full of dirt. Just facing the dam with a liner and hoping it'll hold won't work. What's to prevent the water from going around the liner, or going thru the liner if it is punctured?
There is no one-way valve in sand. If the water pressure is higher in the pond than the water pressure in the sand seam, then the water will run out of the pond.
Trust me, it's MUCH cheaper to fix it right now, when there isn't water in the pond than later when you are full of water and fish. There is no way to fix it after the fact unless you drain it and get to the point where you are at right now. I understand what you are saying but the seam of sand once sealed off at the dam will be about 10' below the floor of the pond and literally 40' below the floor at,the upper end of the pond. I'm not going to seal the entire seam. It would be cheaper to line the whole thing. Like I stated earlier the seam is only about 4' thick. So I know there is a bottom to the sand and the bottom has clay under it. I also know that the seam is only about 50' wide. I have dug down below the seam and on both sides of the seam. It's literally like a river with two sides and a distinct bottom.
Last edited by ToddM; 08/10/14 07:30 AM.
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If you seal off the bottom end and the pond stays full, then that would answer the question of if there is a connection below full pool to ground water. I think that folks are just concerned that a mistake now could be very costly to fix later. Do you have a use for the sand, like making beaches on the pond? Perhaps you could kill two birds with one stone by mining out the sand for later use?
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If you seal off the bottom end and the pond stays full, then that would answer the question of if there is a connection below full pool to ground water. I think that folks are just concerned that a mistake now could be very costly to fix later. Do you have a use for the sand, like making beaches on the pond? Perhaps you could kill two birds with one stone by mining out the sand for later use? Unfortunately you are right. The only true test will be when the pond is full and based on what I've seen I'm good with the gamble. Yes, that is what I am doing all day again today. Moving the sand out of the way to make a beach when complete. I am relatively certain (as is a geologist) that we can seal it off. I just wish I would have talked to him about harvesting the water up stream. Thanks to all concerned about me messing this up, and if I do I know its gonna cost me good. I will post progress as we continue, and advise of any more road blocks. Here is a short 10 sec video of stumps being buried. http://vid22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/cartod/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0948_zpsf0d79e8a.mp4
Last edited by ToddM; 08/10/14 08:12 AM.
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Ok Todd, I think I am starting to visualize what you have going on there, and it is a bit different than what I was originally understanding.
This whole sand seam is below where the pond bottom will be. You hit the seam digging the base of the core trench(keyway?), which is below the pond bottom. I would proceed as you are, and get that sand out so it doesn't mix in with the dirt you will pack back in for the core. I think if you completely cut across that seam, much like you would a drain pipe, seal it all off with packed clay, it will prevent any water from getting thru. Now on to what might happen as result of this.....
That water that is going thru that sand seam will be stopped( if you pack that core properly)and will back up and be released out the next available easy passage way. You may not ever see where that might be. Pretty hard (impossible?)to see underground and know where every empty/weak spot is down there. To take advantage of this, I would follow that sand seam up past the pond. Say 50' past the pond. Get a guy that knows how to tap into that, and you might get an artesian well going. If there is enough pressure from that water source, it may come up all the way to the ground surface. Then let that flow down into the pond. This will prevent the water from going backwards out of your pond, which would be the case if the sand seam would be connected to you pond basin in some way.
When you pack that core and all that water is stopped, don't be surprised that it may find a weak spot and find its way into your pond. Those are the spots that you will then have to think really hard about plating over and fixing before you let it completely fill. You will probably have to start pumping the water out to get it fixed. To help with that, you could then get the artesian well set up. It might come up the well and you can divert it with drain pipes till you are done with the pond.
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Ok Todd, I think I am starting to visualize what you have going on there, and it is a bit different than what I was originally understanding.
This whole sand seam is below where the pond bottom will be. You hit the seam digging the base of the core trench(keyway?), which is below the pond bottom. I would proceed as you are, and get that sand out so it doesn't mix in with the dirt you will pack back in for the core. I think if you completely cut across that seam, much like you would a drain pipe, seal it all off with packed clay, it will prevent any water from getting thru. Now on to what might happen as result of this.....
That water that is going thru that sand seam will be stopped( if you pack that core properly)and will back up and be released out the next available easy passage way. You may not ever see where that might be. Pretty hard (impossible?)to see underground and know where every empty/weak spot is down there. To take advantage of this, I would follow that sand seam up past the pond. Say 50' past the pond. Get a guy that knows how to tap into that, and you might get an artesian well going. If there is enough pressure from that water source, it may come up all the way to the ground surface. Then let that flow down into the pond. This will prevent the water from going backwards out of your pond, which would be the case if the sand seam would be connected to you pond basin in some way.
When you pack that core and all that water is stopped, don't be surprised that it may find a weak spot and find its way into your pond. Those are the spots that you will then have to think really hard about plating over and fixing before you let it completely fill. You will probably have to start pumping the water out to get it fixed. To help with that, you could then get the artesian well set up. It might come up the well and you can divert it with drain pipes till you are done with the pond.
Yes, that's it in a nutshell! Thank you for taking the time to figure it out. I really like your idea. The thought that the water will be under pressure and find its way to the top is interesting and worth more thought. I'm sure this isn't the first time someone has plugged an underground stream. Edit: after further research on an artesian well I think you have solved my dilemma. from what I have read I will be blocking off an underground aquifer and by doing so I may cause it to come under pressure if its not already. The artesian well may be the answer to a pond project that has taken a new direction. Thanks again for all responses.
Last edited by ToddM; 08/10/14 09:54 AM.
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If you seal off the bottom end and the pond stays full, then that would answer the question of if there is a connection below full pool to ground water. I think that folks are just concerned that a mistake now could be very costly to fix later. Do you have a use for the sand, like making beaches on the pond? Perhaps you could kill two birds with one stone by mining out the sand for later use? Unfortunately you are right. The only true test will be when the pond is full and based on what I've seen I'm good with the gamble. Yes, that is what I am doing all day again today. Moving the sand out of the way to make a beach when complete. I am relatively certain (as is a geologist) that we can seal it off. I just wish I would have talked to him about harvesting the water up stream. Thanks to all concerned about me messing this up, and if I do I know its gonna cost me good. I will post progress as we continue, and advise of any more road blocks. Here is a short 10 sec video of stumps being buried. http://vid22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/cartod/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0948_zpsf0d79e8a.mp4 Here it is not good to bury wood. In time it will rot and you will end up with a sink hole. Very nice property. Cheers Don.
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Agree with Don. Don't bury, even outside the pond somewhere. I would burn,
and/or put a few in the bottom of the pond for structure. They will float a while but if you can anchor with cinder blocks, they will sink pretty close to where you want them...
Just do it...
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Agree with Don. Don't bury, even outside the pond somewhere. I would burn,
and/or put a few in the bottom of the pond for structure. They will float a while but if you can anchor with cinder blocks, they will sink pretty close to where you want them... To late they are all buried. They are on the side of a hill that will never be built on or used in my lifetime. Out of sight.......
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A shot of the waterline and first layer of compacted clay over the pond floor. 
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Ok, dam is built and compacted. I ran the compactor over it a second time this morning and added a few root balls and some rocks. Pond is 300' long, about 200' wide at widest point and 15' deep. Had to truck in 15 loads of dirt and take another 15 loads from the front of the property. Im hopeful that this project isn't one big mistake. Any suggestions on structure or anything else during this waiting phase is much appreciated. My two concerns are: 1. I don't have enough watershed to fill it and will have to pump water up from the stream on the front side, or drill a well. 2. It will not hold water due to the sand seam. The last photo is taken at the front of the lot and is where we removed dirt for the dam. Its where I could (if necessary)pump water from, about 50' lower in elevation. All I need now is about 6 million gallons of water.    
Last edited by ToddM; 09/21/14 03:06 PM.
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If you seal off the bottom end and the pond stays full, then that would answer the question of if there is a connection below full pool to ground water. I think that folks are just concerned that a mistake now could be very costly to fix later. Do you have a use for the sand, like making beaches on the pond? Perhaps you could kill two birds with one stone by mining out the sand for later use? That is my concern too. Here is about half of the sand we mined out of the area, its real wet/heavy soupy sand. Once it dried out it has clumps of clay in it. I would like to put sand in an area to create a beach but I think I would have to sift it to get the clay out of it.....or I could just spread it out and see what happens....? 
Last edited by ToddM; 09/21/14 02:59 PM.
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Last edited by ToddM; 09/25/14 03:47 PM.
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About 3' of water in the middle now with no signs of leaking.  
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ToddM,
Very nice job on the pond....keep posting pics on your progress.
...when in doubt...set the hook...
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